can not stay aware during hipnagogic period

[gil-galad]

I have been practicing the "mind awake/body asleep" exercise for around 6 months. However, I am still unable to go deeper into "sleep state"(F10), because I loose awareness when hipnagogic images start to appear.

Basically, when I am doing the exercise, I usually reach a light trance, and experience brief "click-outs". Sometimes I also have longer "click-outs", short dreams, while I am entirely unconscious. The problem is that when hipnagogic images start to appear, I try to passively observe them but I loose awareness completely right when the images began to form. In fact, I use "passive awareness"( or noticing) to maintain my awareness before and during the hipnagogic period. However, I am still unable to deeper into this state(F10/F12) with this method, because I can not stay conscious during the hipnagogic period.

Can you suggest a way how can I stay aware longer in the hipnagogic period?

Is it possible that, with more practice, I'll be able to stay aware longer during the hipnagogia and passively observe these images without loosing awareness completely? 

[nickspry]

Are you practicing before sleeping at night, or after sleeping? It's easier to maintain awareness if you wake early in the morning, but more difficult last thing at night, so time of day could be an issue.

[Stimpy]

gil-galad, you're not alone with this problem.
In for example try to hold my forearm up (when i try before sleep).

[gil-galad]

Usually, I am doing the exercise right after waking up. I also tried to to hold up my arm but after a while it became uncomfortable because all the blood flowed out of my arm and it turned numb.

[Stimpy]

Yes the arm method has its limitations. I'm going through the same thing as you are.
I usually try in the middle of the day after some exercises. Since I'm tired the hypnagogics come faster. then i usually fall asleep and wake up over and over. I'm not really sure how i will know that I'm in focus 10.

[EscapeVelocity]

gil-galad, I struggle with the same problem, and have not come up the 'perfect' answer.

My own conjecture is that we are working through difficulties in several different areas: Focus/level of intent, timing, and some kind of 'rewiring'-both on an unconscious level and at the energy body level.

Early on imo, if the timing is right, it all seems to fall into place rather easily and I think that serves to reinforce the other areas, therefore making timing not quite so important during subsequent attempts. Each successful OBE (or even a Lucid) reinforces the new mental/energetic connections which will in turn, strengthen your future attempts.

So, as I think  nickspry suggested, try varying your sleep times: Wake up after two hours, or three or five...try staying awake for 15 minutes or 30 or an hour. Then try an AP technique. Personally, it can take a few minutes to an hour...somewhere in there you'll make the connection.

Also, try something different. Prop yourself up in bed with a few pillows or move to a recliner...worked wonders for me.


Stimpy,
you'll know Focus 10/MABA when you get there...it floored me. It's like being six years old at two in the morning with your parents asleep and having the whole house to yourself...giggly awesome! I used to think F10 was pretty basic, thought that I had been there dozens of times, listening to the Monroe tapes. Then I happened into it quite by accident...boy was I wrong. My body was literally asleep and yet my mind was fully functioning and much more open to 'other things'! It's definitely there! EV

[Xanth]

Usually, I am doing the exercise right after waking up. I also tried to to hold up my arm but after a while it became uncomfortable because all the blood flowed out of my arm and it turned numb.

WHAT?!
If you're serious then you've got major issues... blood isn't supposed to flow OUT of your arm just because you're raising it.
If you're talking about resting your elbow so your forearm is up in the air and when you fall asleep it falls over and wakes you up... and if your arm is going numb because of this, then that IS NOT normal.

If you're not talking about this... then, ignore me. 

In any case, it just takes practice.  Practice not falling into the hypnagogic imagery.  Doing so pulls you into a dream state.

[gil-galad]

I have been practicing this "mind awake/body asleep" for a while, but it seems rather imposible for me to stay aware (to any degree) during the hipnagogic period. In the best case, I end up in a "half-lucid dream", which ends very quickly.

Could anyone, who is able to maintain some degree of awareness throughout the hipnagogic peroid, tell how do you manage to do it? What exactly are you doing in your exercise? what are you doing before the hipnagogic images appear and what are you doing during the hipnagogic period?
Thanks in advance.

[Stookie]

Before the hypnogogic period, I'm resting my body and relaxing all of it. Actually before I even start I do some relaxing breathing and slow down my heart rate, and then start relaxing. For some, this is a boring, waiting period. For me, I'm going "aahhhhh.... this is soooo relaxxinggggggg....". I feel it in all my muscles and bones and tissue and organs, and I really enjoy it, which I'm sure helps the process. It's nice to just "stop" everything and relax.

Then the hypnogogics will start on their own, because my body is sufficiently relaxed and prepares to enter sleep, BUT I have a different plan. So I just attempt at keeping a small part of my awareness keen on the hypnogogics without it affecting my relaxation or conscious thinking. As you go deeper and deeper, the hypnogogics get more detailed, and harder to hold onto as well as you drift off. From here it's just practice on maintaining awareness. It's normal to lose awareness (fall asleep) and come back to it, and just as before, try not to let it have any affect - notice and let it go.

If noticing doesn't work for you and you're confident in visualization, you can try a "rundown", where you perform a simple act in your mind over and over. It should be something that grabs hold of your imagination, yet something you can maintain awareness on. You don't want to slip into a daydream or fantasy, the point is to focus your awareness on a particular imagined act.

In my opinion, what your asking is one of the hardest parts of the whole process, so don't get frustrated. Try to enjoy the relaxing process, because then even if you don't succeed through the hypnogogics, you still train your body to relax on command, which will help in the long run. And it just plain feels good and gives you energy.

[gil-galad]

Thanks for the detailed description.
When I a doing the exercise, I also relax then I try to passively observe the hipnagogic images when they start.

[CFTraveler]

Another thing that helps keep awareness while in the noticing stage is to try Birm's Triangle Method.  I know there's several threads about it in the forum, not sure where.  I suggest running a search for it.

[gil-galad]

Recently I have managed to go deeper into the hipnagogic period a few times. In this stage the hipnagogic images became more complex "mini dreams" which lasted around 2-5 mins( difficult to determine). Basically, the whole exercise was comprised of these mini dreams and short intervals between them when I returned to a more awake state. During some of these mini dreams, I managed to remain "semi-conscious/lucid"  while others I could not even recall properly.

I would like to ask a question regarding the balance between "falling asleep" and "remaining conscious" in this state.

Should I let myself so close to sleep that the hipnagogic images develop into "mini dreams" even if I only
manage to maintain a small degree of awareness or none?

Thanks for answering.

[CFTraveler]

Yes, you can.  But there are a few things you can do (before going into noticing) to keep your lucidity and awareness-
Do energy body loosening exercises, and try exit techniques as soon as the hypnagogics start.  Then toggle between all those techniques, and see if something happens within half an hour of the hypnagogics starting.

[Tiny]

I believe what you're describing in your original post is an energy problem. Motivation is made possible by energy, and the motivation to stay aware after physical seperation or becoming lucid is simply not there if energy levels drop to a certain level, atleast for me. That explains why it works better in the morning hours.
Maybe what they call "energy raising exercises" is the magic key here.

If everything fails, there could still be a chance to become lucid in the middle of sleep time, after having received our energy-boost. The dream realm seems a good headquarters from where to go basically anywhere.

[gil-galad]

When talking about "astral body looseing exercises", are they some form of chakra stimulation?

Regarding the exit tecniques:

As I know, if you want to exit, you should wait for exit sensations( strong vibrations, feeling of expansion,...) then you can try diferent methods to exit ( imagine rolling out of bed, rope tecnique,...). All these require that you feel the vibrations beforehead.
However, when I am in the hipnagogic state and experiencing these "mini dreams", I do not have any of these exit sensations. Should I try these tecniques even if I don't feel the vibrations?

The only method which has already worked for me is as follows: When I am having these mini dreams and manage to stay aware to a certain extend, I try to imagine a place( my garden, my school etc). I imagine myself flying there (rapidly approaching). For some reason, this action trigers the vibrations, which last for 10-15 secs then fade away. Is is possible to have an OBE with this method? What should I do at this point: visualize longer or  try an other exit tecnique( rolling out of bed,...)?

[CFTraveler]

When talking about "astral body looseing exercises", are they some form of chakra stimulation?

No and yes.  They involve tactile visualization, energy body stimulation (what most people call 'chakras' are the primary energy vortex points, but our energy bodies occupy more than that space.) So you stimulate the whole energy body (legs, arms, torso, head) and learn to feel for them.  Then you do mental exercises that help you extend them out of your body-space.  And then, if this doesn't 'bounce you' right off your body, it will help loosen it enough that with added trance and exit techniques the exit will be more controlled and easier.  Especially in the beginning.

[nickspry]

One thing which really helps me maintain awareness is to lie on my back with my upper body propped up at about 30-45 degrees. I keep a giant pillow within arms reach and use it when I practice in the mornings. It needs to be quite a firm pillow to give decent support. It seems to me that the more elevated you are, the easier it is to maintain your awareness, but too much awareness can simply mean you don't project, so a bit of experimentation may be useful.

[gil-galad]

I am practicing in the mornings( I have found that this is the only time, when I can go deep enough into the sleep state without loosing awereness). 10 mins afteakrasr waking up, I am going back into sleep state, because otherwise I completely wake up(I am a light-sleeper). Therefore, I can not integrate any energy work into my exercise.

I have read several AP books but never heard about "energy body loosening exercises". I am only familiar with certain "energy raising exercises" , where you activate/stimulate the energy centres (chakras), which will improve permanently. These developed energy centres  can give you more energy for the separation.

Is it useful if I do some chakra activation exercises independently? Or should I ty to look for some more extended "energy body loosening exercises" ?
   

[CFTraveler]

If you take on NEW, you will see that it's a discipline that can and should be done separately from your projection sequence, because in some cases it can disrupt sleep-(and takes too long).  However, energy body loosening (done right before the exit technique) is an extension of that.  I do energy raising as part of my projection sequence, but in the beginning of my routine or somewhere in the middle (when the mood strikes, lol).  So if you can do a full body circuit for energy raising, it's a good thing.

So the answer is, learn NEW and do it at a different time, learn energy body loosening techniques from it, and use the techs when planning to project.