The true costs of war

[Frank]

Adrian: The yanks don't care how much it costs to re-build Iraq, "pipeline pays all" as they say in Washington.

Consider that there are around 300,000 US & UK soldiers ready to pounce on Iraq right now... which is about the same number of homeless children living on the streets in Nairobi, Africa (I use the term "living" loosely).

Many of these children are homeless because one or both of their parents died of AIDS and a large percentage of the children are suffering the same fate. But no-one in America gives a stuff about that... because Africa is not potentially the second largest oil-producing nation in the world.  

All "they" want is to gain a high-degree of control over Iraqi fields in order to threaten the "upstart" OPEC Cartel. Which is what they have been wanting to do since the seventies.

Yours,
Frank

[Chance]

Ah Frank, there you go again!  Where would we all be without your anti-American sentiments?  You use the term yank which in and of itself is a derogatory word.  You generalize Americans as being for this war.  As demonstrations all across this great land has proved, there are more Americans who oppose this war than support it.  Please refrain from such comments.  I find them insulting to myself, my fellow clear-minded citizens and what America truly stands for.  Freedom from oppression.  Freedom to pursue one's happiness.  And I am sure there is not one open-minded American that wants to see a single drop of blood shed!  Oh, and lest I forget, it does seem to me that Mr. Blair is fighting tooth and nail for this aggression.  So, instead of demonizing our country, how about taking aim at your own Prime Minister...Thank you in advance!!

[goingslow]

Good point.  But some can only lump all americans together.
They're incapable of realizing americans differ strongly in opinions and what we think is wrong or right.  

But people like that know america.. from reading and watching tv. *L*

[Anonymous]

The citizens of Iraq and similarly hostile countries are brainwashed by their media. It doesn't surprise me that our own country's media would try to do the same. Fore example, get this- in the NY Times newspaper (keep in mind how credible a news source they are), there was an article about a talking fish which was speaking in Hebrew about the Appocolypse and uttering warnings and commands. The newspaper interviewed the men who supposedly heard the fish, but could not interview the fish (Because it was killed and eaten for dinner). Now, one of three things is happening here- either this was printed in mockery of how gullable people are, the fish was right, or the fish was crazy. Or maybe someone was standing behind the fish stand and trying to impersonate the fish and there were some drugs involved. I'm not saying it couldn't happen- God is all-powerful- but frankly, I don't know who or what to believe anymore. We're responsible for ourselves and I don't like the fact that the governments of the world try to brainwash their citizens into hating the citizens of other countries. Has anyone here ever read George Orwell's 1984? That's what it's coming to- The invasion of privacy, the brainwashing, the conspiracies- and we allow it to happen because we're so afraid to break out of our cookie-cutter molds that society has set up for us.

[Anonymous]

I might add that my example of media brainwashing probably wasn't a very good one, but what I was trying to communicate is that just because a news source may be credible, the information they were given may not always be correct. Who does the media get thier information from? On war, they get it from government officials from both sides, and what goes on is that they point their fingers at each other and say "he's lying" or "he's wrong" or whatever. This fish story is just a rhumor as far as I can tell. I mean, only two people heard it talk? And why would anyone want to eat a talking fish, if it really did exist? In my opinion that's a really ignorant thing to do. The world's only talking fish and someone eats it for dinner. *shakes head* I think I'll go get some food and try to think myself out of existence.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Chance

Ah Frank, there you go again!  

Yep, there I go expressing those pesky opposing opinions.

Is Yank a derogatory word? Slang, yes, in the same way as Yanks describe the British as Brits. Well, that has always been my understanding. In any event, surely it's a bit rich for a person to take such offence over a harmless little word; coming from a huge nation who is about to blow some tiny, near-defenceless country to bits, and kill god-knows however many innocent people in the process.

Er, me, anti-American? I rather suspect you are flattering yourself there matey. I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-WAR. And it doesn't take all that much brainpower to look back through recent history and realise that this seemingly never-ending fighting over oil continually leads to circumstances that make this world an ever worse place - not better.

I hear all you say about what you claim America stands for. However, it is an unfortunate fact that an ever-growing number of people in the world are developing a quite different picture. They are arguing, inter-alia, a large slice of the benefits culminating from your collective, "pursuit of happiness" are derived largely at their expense. And again, it doesn't take all that much brainpower to realise there is no magic-formula which led to America becoming the wealthiest nation on planet Earth. Yesterday, I filled my fuel-tank from near empty. It cost me the equivalent of about 75 USD. How much does it cost to fill your tank?

Not that any such logical reasoning would ever make a difference. Learned observers have long-since known that once in the grip of self-righteous passion, America swaps from democracy to near totalitarian state, under which critcism is both futile and unwise. If the events of the past week are anything to go by, it would appear this latest metamorphosis is complete.

Yours,
Frank

[Chance]

Frank,

I find it amusing that you use derogatory words to describe Americans and then turn around and say your not anti-American.  Flatter myself...that's a good one!   A bit of a paradox of a man eh?  That's cool.  We cherish our freedom to speak our minds.    

I find it even more amusing that you refuse to address Mr. Blairs part in all of this and from the previous post the fact that Great Britain has committed some very heinous crimes in their history.  I mean they killed Americans a couple hundred years ago for wanting to be free of their tyranny.  They wanted control and taxation of the bounty in this country and were willing to come over and kill to get it.  So again...Check into that high horse of yours, it could buck you with a realization.

I know how expensive Petrol is in your country...I bought my fair share when I travelled to and from base and around the beautiful countryside.  You want to be mad cause you pay more...Envy is one of the deadliest sins you know...Try blaming your own oil companies and the taxes imposed for your Petrol woes.

As for the pursuit of happiness...Give me a break...The vast majority of Americans pursue their happiness without causing misery for the rest of the world.  Again, more demonizing Americans and additional proof of your angst towards Americans in general.  Give us a break.  

As Ender has pointed out all this polarizing with this us and them bull is getting us nowhere.  If we don't see ourselves as Souls in search of peace and love and doing our best to embody that, we are all screwed...Britains, Americans, Iraqi's and the rest of us.

Peace to you and yours!

[Frank]

You can have a laugh at my expense, I don't mind that. It's nice being able to make people chuckle. Again, I am in no way anti-American: just anti-WAR. As regards my not talking about Tony Blair, well, when does anyone leave the cinema raving about the B-movie?

Of course, looking back through history anyone can see that loads of countries have committed all manner of atrocities throughout the ages. What I would simply suggest is that we all stop doing it. But, yet again, we are on the brink of a war fought in the name of peace. (War against terror, indeed!)

I suppose once it is all over then, yet again, we will see a US-installed puppet president; who will, yet again, be armed to the teeth by the US; which will, yet again, secure the oil flow; and no-doubt, after a decade or two we will, yet again, find ourselves in pretty much the same situation.

Wouldn't it be ironic if, by that time, there was a Bush-3.

Ultimately, I cannot fathom what it is the US is attempting to achieve. I mean, apart from annexing the world's second largest oil reserves. More death and destruction will simply lead to ever more death and destruction.

Yours,
Frank

[Chance]

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example, and you'll find you and your family imprisoned, tortured and dead.  Yet, as Americans it is our job to ensure the leaders of our country are held to task for their crimes.  And believe you me, if the media is ever turned on it's head, like it should be, we will see great shifts in US political climates.  Unfortunately mainstream press is owned and operated by greedy men who wish to fill their pockets.  Not on the truth, but the propaganda they are payed to fill our minds with.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

As for my chuckles at your expense, I truly hope no one is charging you to write this stuff. LOL...That one is at my expense...hehe...You are the one who continues to write contradictory comments.  I just commented on the amusing quality of it.  If that insinuates that I am doing it at your expense then so be it.  And for your clarification, Brits isn't a derogatory term...When I was in the service the morons that tried to use derogatory language in connection with Britains used limey...They thought that one was quite funny.  I found all that jazz to be rather stupid.  My girlfriend at the time of my service was British.  I had a rather large amount of friends off-base, all of which I would have gladly stepped in front of a bullet protecting.  Perhaps this is part and parcel of why your continuing barrage of anti-American sentiment confounds me.  I mean, you are aware that thousands of American soldiers are on hand to help defend YOUR country, right?  And those same soldiers and their families help ensure a wonderful economy for the towns they are stationed at as well as surrounding communities!  

I gladly welcome your anti-war sentiment.  It is just what the doc ordered.  Whether you mean to move that sentiment on to Americans or not, it just seems to come out that way.  

Just wondering?  Have you heard of any of the deplorable acts Sadaam has committed against his own people?  Is all that propaganda?  During the gulf war the Iraqi soldiers were all but too excited to surrender, at least they could get something to eat.  That's right, Sadaam doesn't feed his troops very well.  He doesn't do much of anything for his people very well.  Does that give us the right to go in and take him out?  Probably not.

To continue to barrage us repeatedly with the same...OIL  WAR...OIL WAR...arguments is getting a bit old...There is much more involved here than that.  Subtle influences that ride bellow the surface of so called government leaders.  People who live in the shadows and control the events in the world through their secret orders.  And all to further their own agenda's.  Ones that if you or I were fully aware of would blow our freakin' minds...In other words stop saying things like what US is trying to achieve.  It goes well beyond that and if you meditate on it a moment you will realize it as well.

Wow, that sounded almost crazy enough to be true...Dang that William Cooper...Darn that Bill Kaysing...*Shakes fist at Oliver Stone*

[MJ-12]

as

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

quote:Originally posted by Frank

quote:Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right.  You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

I really must echo Frank's sentiments on the eve of this pending abhorrent lunacy that is about to be unleashed on the world - not just Iraq. By this time tomorrow, there will alot of unecessary additional suffering, as if there isn't enough in the world already.

Make no mistake this is overtly about oil, but behind the scenes, and driving this situation, like 9/11, are dark forces that are very powerful and very deadly. Bush has no idea what he is about to unleash on his country and the world.

All this talk about "weapons of mass destruction" is a joke! Pakistan has nuclear weapons for example, and harbours terrorists, including possible Bin-Laden himself - you don't see Bush and Blair invading Pakistan or India for that matter do you? North Korea is not only dangerous, and has nuclear weapons, but it is publicly testing them before the world! When is Bush going to send his Yellow Sea fleet to "disarm" that country? And for that matter - the USA and Britain has weapons of mass destruction, who is going to disarm them?

This is not just about dictators and attrocities either. The neighbours of the USA - the South American countries, until recently were almost all led by dictators and militrary "juntas" etc., and who committed terrible attrocities. There are many other countries in the world where attrocities are being perpetrated every day - e.g. the African countries - look what happened to the people of Rwanda - wholesale slaughter of men, women and children. The hypocrisy on the part of Bush (and Blair) is absolutely overwhelming! They talk about attrocities, and yet they are about spend over a trillion dollars on bombs, missiles and all of the other paraphernalia of warfare, and on rebuilding after they have blown everything to pieces, while the starvation, terror, misery and attrocities continue unabated elsewhere in the world.

The fact is  - Bush knows very well that the "grateful" Iraqi people will owe a debt of gratitude, and of course Bush will be delighted to help them "manage" their huge oil reserves, providing of course it all arrives in the USA and the countries of it's allies. People in the USA think $1.70 for a gallon of gas is expensive - we pay $5!

The most worrying thing however behind all of this are the dark forces at work in probably the most critical time in our history, this next decade. The battle will be waged and the Light must prevail.

I would ask everyone reading this to send Love, energy, prayers, and whatever else you can to the true victims of this USA led action, as well as for peace in the world generally, and for the forces of light.

This message is not anti USA, it just so happens that this war is being led by the USA, and by Bush and an American general who is commanding all the military. Blair is equally to blame, particularly as he has turned his back on his own party and his own people.

We are entering a sad and potentially deadly era, where the USA and its allies "know not what they do" - please do whatever you can to make a difference for the Light.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Epsilon]

I think we should all start supporting the troops that have been sent over instead of bickering back and forth about something we have no control over.  The troops need to know that the countries they are from support them while they lay their lives on the line.  No one WANTS war, but there comes a point where you must start "supporting" it whether you like it or not.  I have friends in the Armed Guard that have been sent over, and I know that they just want to be supported by their country and get this over with.  In fact, I feel like a horrible friend sitting back here in the states watching it unfold on TV as their putting their lives in danger.  Who knows, I might never see them again... (God forbid)

Whether you're anti-war, anti-US, anti-protests, anti-anything, please sit back for a moment and remember that fellow countrymen and possibly friends or family are over in the Middle East, and that they need your support.

I don't support the war, I support the troops.  

Learn, Love & Enjoy,
Ethan

[goingslow]

Many of the protestors and anti war people do put down the troops instead of Bush and its hard to find a middle ground there sometimes.  We can all sit back and say its wrong and argue but those are just words.  These people are possibly going to lose their lives we do owe them some respect.  Sitting at home comfortable its easy to see things in black and white.  But the government makes the decisions and sends them there and believe it or not it hurts them when it seems so many Americans dislike them more than they dislike those that hate our countries.  Some protestors carry signs putting down our military and have pictures of iraqi people.  Its fine to have empathy but be thoughtful of who you're hurting.

Sorry to say but its the truth most people in Iraq would celebrate america and all of her people being blown to pieces.  The solders out there are the ones that would defend you from that.  

This isnt for the anti american.. "no im not anti american i just lump you all together and demonize you together." ungrateful sideline watchers.  But more for americans who think its so cool to completely put down our military.  Bush doesn't represent most of the american people.. if you knew how many people actually hated him and dont even consider him the rightful president maybe you'd get a better idea what the american people believe.  But im sure you'll continue to lump everyone together.  I dont care much what anyone outside this country says because face it a lot of you have ulterior motives and you dont like the US anyway.  So i dont really get bothered by what bitter people have to say about it.

[Anonymous]

You're absolutely right, Goingslow. There was some riot (I forget where) that protestors took a 9/11 memorial and trashed it. I think people definitely need to be a lot more careful about what they are saying and doing. 9/11 has nothing to do with this war. A lot of people don't even think about what they say before it comes out of their mouths. Sometimes they don't even think about what they're doing. I think that's ridiculous. I am so fed up with people who follow others around like a flock of sheep. I'm not supporting Bush in this, but I definitely support our troops. I have a few friends in the armed forces and they don't want this war any more than we do. They should not needlessly suffer for our government's greedy ulterior motives. A REAL patriot is someone who believes in the ideals on which this country was founded, ideals that it seems are no longer important to our government- The right to privacy and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Someone who is anti-government is not necessarily anti-American. They may actually be more of a patriot than the leaders we have today. I myself am an anarchist (sort of), but I don't believe in chaos. I believe in self-government- everyone is responsible for themselves and their actions. Our society is so full of excuses for everything. Every time I turn around someone makes an excuse rather than accept responsibilitly for their actions. Bush is making excuses to go to war, for instance. If our leaders make excuses, how can they expect to produce fine citizens? It's like my kung fu teachers says- Sloppy teachers make sloppy students. We may acquire our skills from others, but it is up to us to develop them and determine when and how to use them.

Anyway, enough of my ranting. There is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the issue of this war, and it's hard not to be ignorant when we don't know who to trust.

[ralphm]

The pope says this is not a moral war, basicaly I think the human race is in for a lot of turmoil on the physical plane, maybe just to show that the physical is not so important.

[Anonymous]

This war will have unexpected effects. I think that we are entering a new age. Hopefully this will be the last war we have for awhile. There's still issues with North Korea and Pakistan to take care of though.

We are at war. We have dropped leaflets to persuade the Iraqi soldiers to surrender. 17 of them have already gone to Kuwait. Hopefully most of the Iraqi army will defect.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

Sadly the destruction and terror has commenced.

quote:Originally posted by Epsilon

I think we should all start supporting the troops that have been sent over instead of bickering back and forth about something we have no control over.  The troops need to know that the countries they are from support them while they lay their lives on the line.  

Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill. Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

The innocent people of Iraq, the everyday men, women and children who are on the receiving end of this terror and destruction have no choice - they are not using their own freewill to choose to be bombed into oblivion, and in many cases have this life brutally terminated.

Quote: "In his four-minute announcement from the Oval Office, Bush said the military campaign, supported by 35 nations, would make efforts to spare Iraqi civilians. But he made it clear the U.S. military planned to use its full might in the war."

Read this as Bush saying that if they have to kill innocent people they will do.

This is a sad day for mankind and the planet, and which will have serious consequences beyond the comprehension of those responsible.

With best regards,

Adrian.
 

[Nerezza]

they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it.

Wow.

"Just miles from your doorstep, hundreds of men are given weapons and trained to kill. The government calls it the Army, but a more alarmist name would be...The Killbot Factory!"

---Kent Brockman on "The Simpsons"

My family is full of killbots.

[Chance]

quote:Originally posted by Adrian


Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill. Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

Let me clarify a bit here for you Adrian.  I find myself agreeing with most all of your assertations.  I would however disagree with you here.  While it is true that for many years now military enlistment has been voluntary, the enlistees join for other reasons than wanting to kill other people.  For many they see it as a chance to help protect our country and what our country stands for.  Freedom!
For others it's a  chance to see the world.  For some it's a chance to advance their education on the govt. dime.  Whatever their reasons, I never once heard a fellow enlisted man say, "I joined up cause I want to kill people".  Not once...

As far as freewill goes...Yes they signed up...But that is where freewill and freedom part company with them.  They are under orders.  Don't follow your orders, how does prison sound.  Want to protest the war, go straight to prison.  Yep, that's right, along with your freewill goes those freedoms your risking your butt to defend.  Uncle Sam owns you...And until you are released from inactive reserves those freedoms can be taken away yet again.  And of course there are certain things you'll never be able to speak about for the rest of your life without the threat of imprisonment or death.

So, to sum up, yes the troops are being forced to partake in this war.  They are forced by the orders they are given from their higher command.  And those commands come from those who won't have to get a single speck of blood on their own hands.  Literally, not metphorically.  So cut the troops a bit of slack, please.  I'm sure they would all rather be home hugging their loved ones rather than enduring a harsh desert climate while trying to kill or be killed.

War sucks we all agree.  Protest it.  Tell Bush to knock it off.  Tell Blair to give it a rest.  But don't demonize the men and women of the US military.  I have known many who would give the shirt off their own backs to help a stranger, regardless of where they hail from.

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Agreed, Chance. In a situation like the one our troops are in, it's about survival, but also it's about standing up for what we believe in. Granted there are some sickos in the military, and there always will be, most are just regular people who you have described well. What if we had no army? I could think of a few countries who would invade us. I suppose having a bad government is better than having no government at all, but we could use improvement on this situation. Bush isn't really our president, seeing how he was never truly elected. The whole voting fiasco with Florida back in 2000 is a travesty. The only people who don't have a voice are those who allow their voices to be taken from them. The government cannot silence us from speaking out against war. Yes, I would like to see Saddam removed from power and his sons prevented from gaining it. War is ugly, and there may be other ways. If they have to kill Saddam, why not hire some skilled ninjas (seriously). The duty of the ninja is to infiltrate and destroy. They can infiltrate a thousand men undetected and get their job done with no trace of them ever being there. This method would save the lives of thousands of people. Saddam is a psychotic, criminally insane individual who MUST be removed from power. He is a monster. There are many problems with religion in that part of the world, which I think is mostly due to the brainwashing done by the terrible governments of certain nations, such as Iraq. They use the religion to mainipulate the people. It seems they cannot live together in peace and harmony. Jews and Arabs of Israel and Palestine are constantly fighting, committing numerous attrocities, harming and killing innocent civilians. The Palestinian suicide bombers are crazed radicals with extreme bloodlust. It seems that the Israeli army is also to blame for provoking them, as they have shot at innocent people, not to mention we've armed them with weapons far superior to what Palestine has. That's another spot that needs our attention, after North Korea and Pakistan, but not the kind of attention we're giving Iraq.

[Rob]

"For others it's a chance to see the world. For some it's a chance to advance their education on the govt. dime. Whatever their reasons, I never once heard a fellow enlisted man say, "I joined up cause I want to kill people". Not once..."

But still, they joined the services by their own free will - whatever the reasons they saw to join, they saw this as more important than being a part of the big killbot machine (lol!). Essentially they chose to be part of an instrument of death and terror because they wanted to "see the world" or etc. I do understand, they don't see it in these terms, they don't fully understand what they are being asked to do. But when you look at it in this light its a bit of a lame excuse. The possibility of being killed or killing someone else, well is it really worth that just to get a bit of free education?
I would never, ever join the army. Although my bro is joining as a medic, and my dad was a major in the TA and big army buff. They practically re-program your brain to accept orders, and then free-will plummets. But still, if they were about to be called up to fight, couldn't they just say "I can't do this, I am a conscientious objector" or something? They can't force you to fight surely...

I do hope that as few of them as possible are killed or injured, but I don't really have much sympathy for the ones who are rearing to "go bag us some rag-heads", more their relatives who will have to live with the loss. A much bigger piece of my heart goes out the innocent Iraqis.

Anyway this whole issue is very cunning, I am forever impressed by the skills of them spin-doctors!! Notice how, whenever tricky issues come up which a voice in authority wants to quash, the emphasis is shifted entirely off the issue and on to some fluffy emotional thing. Example - reading an article last night on the war starting, and the only thing it mentions Tony Blair saying is the whole "wishing the troops well" bit. Completely side-stepping the fact that he has just sent thousands of our troops, paid for by the taxpayers, to an almost defenceless country thousands of miles away, some of whom won't come back, most of whom will cause massive pain and bloodshed, and all put there against the expressed wishes of the British general public (and I used to call this a democracy...). Basically, they are sly SOB's.
Best not to get caught up in the emotional side-shows and keep our eyes on the real issue.

Now I am here there is one other thing that I really want to say - we all knew this war was coming, some only seeing this as a certainty in the last few days, others seeing it hurtling unstoppably towards us months ago. We were almost powerless to stop it, from the beginning. But!! Look how much we have delayed it!! People (skilled psychics included) have in 100% of the cases I have seen predicted the war would have started much earlier than it actually has done (I was expecting it one month ago). And look what has happened - they've been stuttering, tripping up, putting themselves in some really laughable situations, the controversy that has brewed up, the protests....its really encouraging, I think people are actually beginning to wake up.

peace
Rob

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Ghandi

[Adrian]

Greetings Chance,

Thank you very much indeed for your perspective.

I have to respectfully disagree. The military isn't a job creation, or job experience scheme, it exists to kill and destroy at the whim of its leaders - in this case Bush.

No person is compelled to join the miltary, but when they choose to do so, they do so in full knowledge that they will be compelled to utilise the weapons of warfare provided to them to kill their fellow brother or sister, and to create destruction and chaos. That is what the miltary exists for, and anyone joining the miltary for any other purpose, e.g. as a nice, exciting job but not thinking there will actually be a war or other hostilities, is being extremely naive. If they prefer to be at home with their loved ones, and who can blame them for that, they should not have enlisted in the miltary in the first place, in which case, at home they would surely be.

From a Spiritual point of view, killing of any sort is a crime against Divine Providence (God), and is punishable by Universal laws of Karma - either in this lifetime or a future one - but the price will have to be paid. That is one reason why it is fundamentally important for humanity to understand and live by these truths. Of course motive has a big influence on the Karmic debt to be equilibrated. Those that are in charge and instigate warfare, as well as all those that actually enjoy killing and destruction, will pay a heavy price. Those that enlisted as a career, not thinking they would be called into action, and who follow there orders dutifully but reluctantly will pay a lesser price. It doesn't alter the fact that they chose to be in that situation of their own freewill.

You talk about cutting the professional military some slack, how much slack are you going to cut the 99% of innocent, already oppressed Iraq families, as the cruise missiles, super bombs, and all of the other high-tech armaments explode on and around them, killing family members, and destroying homes and livelyhoods? Bush just scoffs at it saying they are "necessary casualties of war"! In reality, they are casualties of the economic greed of the USA and some of its allies, who want direct control of the oil reserves in Iraq.

Oil is why people will be getting killed and injured, having their homes and businesses vaporised, and all of the other suffering that will last for years to come, and not just in Iraq. The excuse is "weapons of mass destruction" and "war against terrorism". There is no evidence for any of those things in Iraq, but I would think that if (and when) no genuine ones are found, then it will be ensured that some of weapons will indeed suddenly, retrospectively turn up in Iraq for the benefit of the worlds press, and Bush's "I told you so".

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Epsilon]

quote:Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill. Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

True, my friends did choose to enroll in the Guard, but not because they enjoy killing... [:O] I'm actually shocked that point was made.  Just because someone enrolls in the military does not mean they want to go around killing people...!  I don't know anyone that wants to do that.  They enrolled to protect their home, their state, their country.  Not to mention they also go to a good university and needed help paying their tuition.  If we lived in like Sweden or someplace where tuitions are payed for by the government, I don't know if my buddies would have enrolled.  I might have to ask them that when they get back.  But the fact of the matter is that they are over there right now, following orders.  They don't get to pick which assignments or missions they're gonna go on.  It's not up to them.
They're not blind, deaf, or dumb either.  They know what's going on in their country and around the world.  They know about the protests around the world protesting against why they're there.  I think it's time we concentrate on supporting them and getting them home asap.  

God bless the troops. (All of them, not just the Americans, but the British and the Australians and the many other troops from all around the world)

Ethan

EDIT: 3 or 4 messages were posted while I was typing my last message.  Obviously this thread is stirring up some emotions.  I'm going to stay out of further arguements as I don't see any good coming out of this and don't see it going anywhere but downhill.  I don't want war, war is horrible.  Not to sound like a "post-60's hippie", but love and peace is what we should all strive for, but I don't see it making a sudden appearance today.  Today we should focus on bringing the troops home and supporting them until then.
Whatever.  I need to go cheer up now. [}:)]  (War is depressing)

learn, love & enjoy
Ethan

[Adrian]

Geetings Epsilon,

I actually said:

quote:No person is compelled to join the miltary, but when they choose to do so, they do so in full knowledge that they will be compelled to utilise the weapons of warfare provided to them to kill their fellow brother or sister, and to create destruction and chaos

What I am saying in essence is that for whatever reason they joined, they must know that they could be called upon to kill, maim and destroy. If people are not prepared to do that, and accept the consequences of their own actions, then they should not have enlisted.

Thay had a choice - the Iraqi people have absolutely no choice - do you really believe that even minutely enters Bush's head?

With best regards,

Adrian.