Im new and need help

[S_man_9]

So I came across AP after having a couple sleep paralysis episodes. Seems like that can be a close step to AP. The first episode I had was probly a year and a half ago in the middle of the night. I thought I was having some sort of anxiety attack. I was laying in bed kind of half asleep when I could start really hearing my heart beat, almost as if it were pounding out of my chest. Then I heard what everyone seems to say is a buzzing sound. At that point I was awake looking up at my ceiling with my whole body paralyzed and unable to speak, only moan. Its was a very scary experience as I also had an overwhelming sense of hooror/fear come over me. Lets fast forward a bit....

about 3 weeks ago I had a similar experience. I was laying in bed in the afternoon prior to going to the gym. I just felt slightly tired. I ended up falling asleep. I then had a very similar buzzing/vibrating sensation come over me and felt like my eyes were being forced closed like a curtain. I was on my side at the time and for some reason I naturally wanted to fight it. It happend maybe twice. This got me curious to do some research and now Im here. Ive been doing some reading and have attempted to get into a similar state of relaxation but with no luck. For some reason late at night before going to bed I get paranoid and almost am afraid to try it, might be some of the vids, articles Im reading online. Ive tried 3 or so times during the day with not much luck. The furthest I go is really feeling the heartbeat to where it almost feels like it moves me but then I either get distracted or fall asleep.

So, I was wondering if anyone could give me some guidence as to what to do or maybe direct me to some helpful articles. This subject has really intrigued me and am anxious to have my first real AP experience. Thanks!

[personalreality]

i just don't remember reading about sleep paralysis being a close step to AP.

i guess it's somewhere, people keep talking about it.

[cpt. picard]

How is it not a close step? It's the most common state that leads to OBE's such as outward projection or astral phasing, other than maybe lucid dreaming.

[Xanth]

I have to agree with the Captain.

Sleep Paralysis, Trance, Focus 10... they're all the same state to me.
Mind awake/Body asleep.  This is the optimum state to be in for APing.

[Tiny]

I have to agree with the Captain.

Sleep Paralysis, Trance, Focus 10... they're all the same state to me.
Mind awake/Body asleep.  This is the optimum state to be in for APing.

What you and your model are doing is falsefying matters for your sake of desired simplification.

Neither are trance state, detachment and sleep paralysis the same nor are astral projections and lucid dreams  .

So, I was wondering if anyone could give me some guidence as to what to do or maybe direct me to some helpful articles. This subject has really intrigued me and am anxious to have my first real AP experience. Thanks!

Dear s_man_09,

In my opinion Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics has by far the most productive collection of technniques and exercises and preparations I've seen in a book so far.
The theoretical parts are seperate from the practical parts and can be skipped if desired. The book can be read out of order.


kind regards,

Paul

[Xanth]

What you and your model are doing is falsefying matters for your sake of desired simplification.

No, what me and my model are doing is simply disagreeing with you and your model.
I don't see why you need to go on the defensive anytime someone disagrees with you.

Neither are trance state, detachment and sleep paralysis the same nor are astral projections and lucid dreams  .

I've always fully respected opposing views. 
I might not agree with them, in which case I propose my view, but I DO fully respect your belief.

~Ryan

[S_man_9]

Dear s_man_09,

In my opinion Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics has by far the most productive collection of technniques and exercises and preparations I've seen in a book so far.
The theoretical parts are seperate from the practical parts and can be skipped if desired. The book can be read out of order.


kind regards,

Paul

Thanks Paul, I really appreciate the response. Its confusing when u experience something like that and have no idea what to think.

[personalreality]

sleep paralysis has NOTHING to do with AP.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  It's a happy coincidence.  Sometimes it works for people. 

BUT!  When you talk about sleep paralysis as part of projection it confuses new folks into thinking they need to somehow "achieve" sleep paralysis to project and that's just not true.

Sleep paralysis is a biological function that is induced automatically upon entry into deep sleep.  In order to project from that state someone would have to wake up in the middle of it, which is a common experience for some and they've utilized it for AP.  But going into AP practice trying to achieve sleep paralysis is just going to hold you back. 

A trance state is NOT sleep paralysis.  Trance is describing a state where you still maintain awareness as your brain wave frequency begins to slow down.  Anytime your brainwaves change from the normal waking beta, you are in a trance.  This can be induced in a multitude of different processes, from meditation to listening to techno music.

Also, mind awake/body asleep is misleading as well.  Again, you're leading novices on a quest to achieve something that is not the best description of the state you want.  Some people have the predisposition to wake in a deep trance state where their body is technically asleep, but for someone trying to achieve conscious exit at any time other than normal sleeping times this is a near impossibility.  You'll spend months and years trying to reach the fabled "mind awake/body asleep".  It's not about the body being asleep, that's just the easy way out if you can get there.  But if you want to develop mastery of the conscious exit you'd do better to spend your practice time learning how to "forget" about your body.  It's about dissociation, not somehow inducing this elusive body asleep state.

Oh and as for mind awake.....it's not that easy.  If you're moving toward the phasing approach then mind awake is good at a certain point, but you need to be very good at totally immersing yourself in your visualization.  I've found it to be easier to let my mind almost go to sleep.  That's the easiest way for me to reach this state of flickering consciousness where my mind is totally involved in the inner realms than the outer.

[Tiny]

Also, mind awake/body asleep is misleading as well.  Again, you're leading novices on a quest to achieve something that is not the best description of the state you want.  Some people have the predisposition to wake in a deep trance state where their body is technically asleep, but for someone trying to achieve conscious exit at any time other than normal sleeping times this is a near impossibility.  You'll spend months and years trying to reach the fabled "mind awake/body asleep".  It's not about the body being asleep, that's just the easy way out if you can get there.  But if you want to develop mastery of the conscious exit you'd do better to spend your practice time learning how to "forget" about your body.  It's about dissociation, not somehow inducing this elusive body asleep state.

Very nice,

I can back this up with my experience. Trying to hit the mind awake/body asleep is extremely difficult for a normal Joe unless his body is naturally predisposed to it. Some people apparently are. Other people often find themselves in sleep paralysis and it terrifies them.

I've woken up a few times out of sleep and found myself in the perfect mind awake/body asleep state - and opportunistically used those occasions to lift out of my body consciously, but i've almost never achieved to reach this state from full waking consciousness on.

Sometimes the body does what IT wants. If it wants to stay awake, it will. If it feels exhausted, it will drift towards sleep and you have an opportunity. To enforce the body (includes the brain) these states by one's own will is a true art.

I much agree with you, if what you were saying is one should stop trying to reach the trance. It is not worth the effort as I said - sometimes the body will respond, at other times it will not. In truth, a full trance is not even required to go out of body. Body detachment and trance are two seperate phenomenons.
It is better to view the trance state more as a response to that which one is doing and so is detachment. Daydreaming will often result in trance, ironically breathing/counting, trying to still the mind often times will not!

In my opinion a good approach to try to bring about a projection of the etheric body is to focus on one's surroundings. I would start by focusing on sounds if there are any. If there are not, the ear ringing could be used to focus on.
I have found that this will often entrance the body mind and if I'd be in a purely receptive mode to my surrounding ambiences there are usually no thought intrusions which makes it so much easier.
When one is detached from the body to a greater extend, he should try to see through the blackness behind his eyes.
What I did on my succesful occasions was focussing on the space behind my closed eyes and pretend to look at the ceiling. Then I would visualize an object (it were cooking pots for some reason) above my head - the visualized object would literally cause me to rocket out of my body, with almost 0 of the reported annoying side effects.
This is a very simple and uncomplicated process once one is detached from the body sufficiently.

Perhaps many OBE practitioners focus on their etheric body (where the chakras and meridians are) too much instead of where they actually want to go, causing their etheric body to overstimulate giving them all the troubling anomalies.

The worst thing to do in my opinion (and many ppl do this i believe) is to simultaneously focus on one's body and the destination - this is like pulling a rope from both ends at the same time. I have theorized that many exit sensations many be caused by this two sided pulling.



kind regards,

Paul

[nickspry]

Lot of different opinions here. From my own experience, once in sleep paralysis i'm already in and out-of-body state but still feeling the paralysed physical body. What I may be seeing or hearing at this point is not in the physical though, and with a large effort of will I can roll out, or sit up, directly from sleep paralysis without any further need for exit techniques. I'm sure that probably confuses the issue even further.....

[cpt. picard]

In my opinion you guys are plain wrong. Sleep paralysis / trance state / F10 are the same state, plenty of people claim they are not but never provide any evidence to distinguish between them. And if you expect me to believe that you project from normal waking counciousness, I'm deffinilty gonna call bull when I see it. I also fail to see the differences between astral projection/phasing and lucid dreaming, other than the method used to get there. Some people choose to see AP as rationally as possible, while others would rather add unfounded mystical rhetoric to the art, or just over complicate things by claiming one state is 3 or 4 or more different states. Me and Xanth dont have to provide any evidence other than common sense and as little bias as possible when classifying different states of counciousness, if you would rather say there is difference between SP/trance/F10 and a difference between astral phasing and lucid dreaming, Im open to hear out your reasoning, but you know how the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I just plain dont see any for your claims. And Nickspry, no that does not complicate things further, I experience similar things in SP/trance/F10 such as sitting up out of body, or being able to move my OOB arms but still being trapped in the rest of my body, from my experience this is all very common for a F10 state or even projection when sometimes I become randomly aware of my body back in paralysis again.

[cpt. picard]

Sleep paralysis is a biological function that is induced automatically upon entry into deep sleep.  In order to project from that state someone would have to wake up in the middle of it, which is a common experience for some and they've utilized it for AP.  But going into AP practice trying to achieve sleep paralysis is just going to hold you back. 

Im sorry but that is plain not true. I learned councious ethereal projection before I ever learned to astral phase or lucid dreaming. Councious exit is done from paralysis. I have woke up in paralysis, but most of the time I go from a normal waking counciousness to paralysis/trance without losing counciousness and yes this state is mandatory for acheiving councious exit from the body. By the sounds of what you are spouting you have no experience with councious projection. If youre going to make an outrageous claim like saying sleep paralysis holds you back from projection, you had better come up with a good reason for such an unfounded statement. Perhaps you could share your own method for projection/phasing?

[personalreality]

I will distinguish between them right now.

Sleep Paralysis - sleep paralysis is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the body paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully conscious, but unable to move.

Trance - All brain waves are analogous to different types of trance in that they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.

Gamma waves

Gamma waves have the highest range of frequencies (around 40 Hz) and are involved in higher mental activity. They have also been detected during the process of awakening and during active rapid eye movement (REM) sleep.

Beta waves

Beta waves are the most common of the brain wave patterns that occur when awake. These occur during period of intense concentration, problem solving, and focused analysis. The frequency of beta waves is between 13–30 Hz (cycles per second).

Alpha waves

Alpha waves are any of the electrical waves from the parietal and occipital regions of the brain, having frequencies from 8 to 12 hertz (cycles per second). Some scientists consider the range 8–13 Hz and are most usual when we are mentally alert, calm and relaxed, or when day-dreaming. Alpha waves are a sign of relaxation, as they indicate a lack of sensory stimulation in a conscious person.

Theta waves

Theta waves occur when we are mentally drowsy and unfocused, during deep calmness, most daydreaming, relaxation or tranquility, as for example we make the transitions from drowsiness to sleep or from sleep to the waking state. The frequency of theta waves is between 4–7 Hz (cycles per second) though some researchers regard theta to be 5 to 8 cps.

In brain wave frequencies, theta is the frequency range where drowsiness, unconsciousness, dreaming states and deep tranquility happen. Most daydreaming occurs while in the theta range. It is normally a very positive mental state and prolonged states of the theta brain wave frequency while conscious can be extremely productive and a time of very meaningful/creative mental activity.

With practice, meditation can also lower a person's brain wave frequency to theta while allowing the meditator to remain conscious.

Delta waves

Delta waves occur primarily during deep sleep or states of unconsciousness. The frequency of delta waves is between 0.5–4 Hz (cycles per second).

Focus 10 - This is most closely related to what might be called a deep trance state, low alpha to theta waves.  This is a state in which your awareness seems to have "separated" from your normal position of perception.  Often this is experienced as your consciousness having shrunk to a point and perception seems to happen through the mind's eye or "third eye".


I'm not even going to talk about sleep paralysis anymore, it's a biological function and has nothing to do with AP.  If it happens, great, use it.  But DO NOT try to achieve it because it won't happen.  You aren't supposed to experience sleep paralysis, it's supposed to be a function of your body to protect itself while you are in REM sleep.  And, if you've studied sleep cycles, you aren't supposed to wake up naturally in REM.  Sometimes it happens for whatever reason and if it does, use it. 

Focus 10 is a level of trance.  Trance is not some difficult thing to achieve.  Zoning out is trance, daydreaming is trance, watching tv is a trance state, meditation is trance, being "in the zone" while playing a game (sports, video, whatever) is a trance, getting into the flow of a song while dancing is trance, hypnosis is a trance. 

It's easy for us to categorize trance states into the brain wave frequency designations but in truth, trance describes a massive continuum of altered states of consciousness.  Everything from being hyperactively awake to being passed out asleep.  Trance is just a word we use to designate our waking consciousness from other altered states.

Again, Focus 10 is not trance, but a specific region on the continuum of trance states.  The specific trance state needed to AP is variable.  Each one of us has a different and infinitely unique physiological and psychological make-up which influences the particular trance state needed to AP/Phase or OBE/Etherically Project.

Bottom line, everyone is using words to mean different things.  That is the nature of human communication.  Each of us has a unique experience with different "words" and so our perception of them is biased toward our paradigm.  We're arguing over the definition of words that are descriptions of SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES!  Silly.

My concern is in confusion this kind of talk creates for new people.  So, new people, do your best to read what everyone has to say, pick one that seems congruent with your experience, use it and build on it.  Make your own definition of all these words.

out.

[personalreality]

One more thing.  When you project, it's not a completely aware mind that allows for exit (or whatever you frankies call a phase exit), it's a completely focused and engrossed mind.  It's not just a numb body that allows the exit.  Your mind needs to be in an appropriate state, which as you may have guessed is a unique experience.  Each person will experience this state differently so there isn't much use in trying to describe it. 

You all talk like all you need is a sleeping body which isn't true.  You need mental discipline.  You need to be able to control your involvement in the process.  For some this means being almost asleep.  For others this means visualizing with intense detail.  It takes much more than just Mind Awake/Body Asleep.  You need to turn your awareness inward if you want to phase or AP.

OBE, that's a different story imo.  That's a dimensional shift.

[cpt. picard]

Im not sure what you think you're doing, but all you did was repeat that paralysis has nothing to do with projection, then list different brain wave frequencies as evidence? Once again you are using rhetoric to try and distinguish between two different states which are really one. It dosen't matter whether you counciously go into trance or wake up in trance you are awake and no longer completely in REM sleep. As I've said, whether you enter trance counciously or wake up in it, it feels the same and the same things are accomplishable from there. As for your deffinition of trance, I'll agree with that somewhat, its just that councious projection is not possible from any of those states you listed, no body asleep-mind awake, no councious exit.

You are also getting the totoally wrong impression, I could not have trained myself to counciously project had I not possessed some mental disicpline. Much in the same way when a random person falls into paralysis, they dont project as they dont know what the state can be utilized for. Everything you guys have said about the mind and what it should be focussing on is essentially correct, but to say sleep paralysis is not needed at all or to say it is counterproductive, is nothing but a flat-out lie.

[S_man_9]

this thread seemed to get a little off track. Is anyone able to guide me in the right direction.

[Xanth]

this thread seemed to get a little off track. Is anyone able to guide me in the right direction.

I apologies for my friends... kinda looks like they're in an epeen stroking competition.  >_< 

In any case...
I thoroughly suggest Franks Phasing Resource as a great place for a beginner to start learning about the non-physical reality. 
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

Give that a read... it's a long read though.
Feel free to ask whatever questions you want regarding it.

I highly suggest starting a new thread on it though.  We'll just let the boys here have their little competition.

*pokes the Captain and PR*  ^_~

[CFTraveler]

Im not sure what you think you're doing, but all you did was repeat that paralysis has nothing to do with projection, then list different brain wave frequencies as evidence? Once again you are using rhetoric to try and distinguish between two different states which are really one. It dosen't matter whether you counciously go into trance or wake up in trance you are awake

I'm afraid not- they are different brainstates and have different brainwaves associated with them- deep trance is not on the same consciousness scale as sleep paralysis, as PR tried to explain- and the difference is night and day, mainly because in trance you are lucid and when you wake up paralyzed you're not.
And that is the difference- that's why I like to call one 'trance' or 'waking paralysis', and the other 'sleep paralysis'- and sleep paralysis is not good for projecting, unless you have managed to maintain lucidity, and fight the visceral fear that is so characteristic of this state.  And then, you have to work to get into the right focus, even while in sp.

Sorry to go back to this Xanth.

[Xanth]

I've started this topic over here:  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/sleep_paralysis_and_trance-t31500.0.html

I copied all applicable posts.
We can allow S_man_9 his thread back. 

[S_man_9]

thanks guys

[cpt. picard]

I fail to understand how one is not lucid during sleep paralysis, just face it, there is no difference, you say there is a brainwave difference yet there is no difference between the states! Sleep paralysis without lucidity is SLEEP. The fact that you call trance "waking paralysis" and say your not lucid during sleep paralysis has only proven my point, that they are the same state. Unless you can explain how one ends up uncounciously in paralysis yet being awake..? But anyways, thank you for calling the trance state "waking paralysis", "waking paralysis" is an ideal state for projection and is in no way counterproductive to astral projection. However, Im not sure who's argument youve helped, as it seemed like my OP was saying any paralysis is bad for projection... As for saying "the difference is between night and day", there's nothing you guys can say to convince me of that, it is essentially the same state, perhaps fear is caused when someone wakes up in it, as opposed to counciously entering the state, but you guys can't honestly expect me to believe that these states are completely different brainwaves, even if they are different states they are incredibly similar and both can be used in the same way for projection. Nothing has been explained to me except the different brainwaves, which has not provided any evidence for your claims.

[personalreality]

i retract this post because i now see that we have started a new one to talk about trance and SP.

sorry S_man_9

[personalreality]

I have two potential explanations for the heart beat.  It could be an energy surge.  I was talking to my boss the other day who is a psychic medium and he said that Astral Projection and the nervous system are very closely intertwined.  It's not unusual then to experience strong energy surges (and while the heart is a part of the circulatory system, the majority of it is made out of neural cells, which means it is also a part of the CNS, like the brain and spinal cord) that manifest as rapid heart beat, surge up the spine, or even rapid fluttering of your eyelids.  From my experience these sensations are not happening in your physical body.  I recorded myself on video about a year ago when i was just getting back into AP practice and still experienced those sensations.  I felt like my whole body was pounding with my heart and that my eyelids were fluttering open and closed but on video I was sitting perfectly still.  Strange.

The other explanation is that when you're in this kind of "trance" state your body is "quieter" and you can hear your normal heartbeat.  Actually, in the book "Projection of the Astral Body" by Sylvan Muldoon, there is a technique for projection that involves quieting your mind and body and listening/feeling for you heart beat/pulse in different places in your body (ears, feet, neck, etc.).

I recommend attempting a conscious exit either right after you wake up naturally (not from an alarm clock) or in the afternoon after you've been doing stuff all day.  Those are my favorite times, when I have the most success.

Here is my post on my projection method, give it a try:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/how_i_got_out_for_the_first_time-t30942.0.html

[CFTraveler]

I fail to understand how one is not lucid during sleep paralysis, just face it, there is no difference, you say there is a brainwave difference yet there is no difference between the states! Sleep paralysis without lucidity is SLEEP. The fact that you call trance "waking paralysis" and say your not lucid during sleep paralysis has only proven my point, that they are the same state. Unless you can explain how one ends up uncounciously in paralysis yet being awake..? But anyways, thank you for calling the trance state "waking paralysis", "waking paralysis" is an ideal state for projection and is in no way counterproductive to astral projection. However, Im not sure who's argument youve helped, as it seemed like my OP was saying any paralysis is bad for projection... As for saying "the difference is between night and day", there's nothing you guys can say to convince me of that, it is essentially the same state, perhaps fear is caused when someone wakes up in it, as opposed to counciously entering the state, but you guys can't honestly expect me to believe that these states are completely different brainwaves, even if they are different states they are incredibly similar and both can be used in the same way for projection. Nothing has been explained to me except the different brainwaves, which has not provided any evidence for your claims.

Two things and then I will go:  Lucidity means 'knowing' what's going on.  Paralysis without lucidity is being paralyzed, horrified without all your marbles, and believing you are being attacked or not having the mind to realize you're asleep while awake and think of waking yourself up.  You're still conscious, but you're not aware.
And two, I realize that no one can convince you of anything- but the brainwave thing is pretty documented.  High theta (deep trance) is not the same as an alpha intrusion (waking paralysis).
Now, you can continue to argue something a lot of experienced projectors have figured out, that's your prerogative- I'm done with this thread.

[S_man_9]

I have two potential explanations for the heart beat.  It could be an energy surge.  I was talking to my boss the other day who is a psychic medium and he said that Astral Projection and the nervous system are very closely intertwined.  It's not unusual then to experience strong energy surges (and while the heart is a part of the circulatory system, the majority of it is made out of neural cells, which means it is also a part of the CNS, like the brain and spinal cord) that manifest as rapid heart beat, surge up the spine, or even rapid fluttering of your eyelids.  From my experience these sensations are not happening in your physical body.  I recorded myself on video about a year ago when i was just getting back into AP practice and still experienced those sensations.  I felt like my whole body was pounding with my heart and that my eyelids were fluttering open and closed but on video I was sitting perfectly still.  Strange.

The other explanation is that when you're in this kind of "trance" state your body is "quieter" and you can hear your normal heartbeat.  Actually, in the book "Projection of the Astral Body" by Sylvan Muldoon, there is a technique for projection that involves quieting your mind and body and listening/feeling for you heart beat/pulse in different places in your body (ears, feet, neck, etc.).

I recommend attempting a conscious exit either right after you wake up naturally (not from an alarm clock) or in the afternoon after you've been doing stuff all day.  Those are my favorite times, when I have the most success.

Here is my post on my projection method, give it a try:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/how_i_got_out_for_the_first_time-t30942.0.html

thanks personalreality. I was considering buying journey out of the body by robert monroe as well as astral dynamics by robert bruce. Do u think these two books are worth starting out on or are their better choices?