Why MAGIC isn't a BAD word.

[personalreality]

I know that this forum is an Astral Projection forum and while topics like magic have their own forum, they are still not really considered to be a topic that we collectively have much knowledge of.  Because of this attitude, I think magic gets a bad wrap around here.  It seems to me that many members of this forum have become "metaphysically" stagnant in regards to understanding the uses of particular traditions.  With this in mind, I would like to explain a few things about magic so that you will all understand that magic isn't a silly superstition that has no bearing on astral projection.

For starters, magic is primarily an astral activity.

Any time a magical ritual is performed, it is performed on the astral.  There are physical symbols used for astral tools and energies, but those symbols are only in place as assistance in creating their astral counterparts. 

Nearly all magical techniques involved interaction with the astral in some form.  Whether that is active imagination (astral viewing, like scrying or remote viewing, but most notable on this forum, PHASING!, yes phasing is active imagination, not astral projection), astral projection (the sensation of separating from one's body, even if that isn't actually happening), or simply powerful intention, all ritual is being performed on the astral level. 

Initiation into magical or occult groups is done on an astral level.  Many famous members of occult groups have said that they were visited astrally by existing members as a form of initiation.  In these cases they were observed energetically and were even sometimes put through "trials".  When someone was actually chosen they went through initiation rituals, which at least on the part of the initiators, took place in the astral.  Initiates would often be programmed with powerful symbolism that the particular group used for astral work.

The ultimate goal of magical practice is not necessarily to control physical reality by means of archaic ritual.  Usually the goal was, self-knowledge, healing and what people might call enlightenment or rather mastery of their reality.  For normal folks who don't involve themselves in these types of things, the symbols of magical practice seem inert and boring.  But, through astral experiences, an initiate explores these symbols on a level where waking consciousness is subdued and something deeper gets a crack at it.  You discover worlds of meaning behind apparently benign symbols.

Everything else about magic aside (all of the superstition, the misunderstandings, remnants of inquisition and witch hunting, the fear and pretensions), magical practice is basically a practice that actively engages the participant in both the physical and nonphysical as a means of opening the connection between the two worlds and allowing open communication between the two.  That's it. 

Anyone having difficulty with astral projection might do well to investigate some magical traditions.  You might be surprised at how relevant it is to projection.  I sure was.

[NoY]

That was worth writing well done 

:NoY:

[personalreality]

As an addendum to this post I'd like to say that through my recent research into magical traditions I have learned that all of the "new" ideas presented by Bruce, Monroe, Kepple, etc. aren't even remotely new, novel or unique.  They are regurgitated techniques thrust upon people who know little about the origins and use of astral projection. 

This is part of the reason that I seem to have a "stand-offish" attitude towards people who assert that we should be infinitely grateful to people like Monroe and Kepple.  I don't deny that they brought the occult to people who might otherwise have never learned such things.  But in the same breath it should be understood that the "Old Ways" were done the way they were for a reason.  It was about creating a different reality in your mind.  A new, mystical place, separate from our mundane lives.  These old techniques utilized what were new findings at the time in order to condition the ego/brain to respond in a particular way to ritual. 

When the glorious Monroe decided that he would strip away all the ritual from occult practice, not only was he crapping all over something "sacred", he was also making it much less effective.  And to be honest, monroe didn't do much but put an arbitrary and subjective spin on something that worked well as long as you weren't a closed minded religious zealot.  People say that Monroe brought AP out of the occult and into the mainstream, but plenty of occultists were authoring tons of books about the "secret" teachings of their groups around the same time Monroe was "opening our eyes".  The information was there for anyone, Monroe just sold his reality to people who didn't know any better.  And he's still doing it from beyond the grave.  LoL.  Frank is guilty by association.  He didn't know any of the history of AP.  He knew he could do it and he knew that what he did was similar to Monroe.  Whatever came out of that was his subjective experience.  As for Bruce.....well.....whatever.  Bruce is Bruce.

Don't misunderstand my criticism.  I learned about Monroe and Bruce long before I learned of their occultist predecessors and I appreciate them for that.  But while I recognize their achievements, I also recognize that they watered down something that once held great power.  They were in such an uproar to start something new that they neglected simple truths about humans.  We are symbolic and metaphoric creatures.  Everything we know and do is somehow symbolic of the ineffable and I feel like the modern AP authors have lost sight of that.  You can certainly still find plenty of good authors out there that teach how much more complex and infinite the experience of the nonphysical can be.  I might recommend some authors like Donald Tyson, Nick Farrell, Diana Paxson, Bruce Goldberg, etc. 

Once you take the magic out of AP it becomes just that, magicless.  The pursuit of the mystery is what makes exploring the nonphysical and consciousness so fulfilling.  So, my point here is that while we want to be sophisticated explorers who have no need for silly rituals, a good humble look at the history of excursions into the otherworlds can bring revelations beyond anything you can imagine.

[Naykid]

I find majic, magic..whatever, archaic.  I have no use for ritualistic things.  I don't feel they are necessary, but others might feel that is the only way to make something work.  And personally why should I care?  Have at it, I say.

So why do you have such a beef against people who don't care for it?  Because YOU care for it?  Because YOU work in a book store and you are surrounded by it all day?  I think you are trying to find validation for your belief and you don't even realize it.

And as to the Monroe and Kepple thing...  another who cares.  People should realize that we are all different ages and that we read or heard differences of opinions.  The first book I read on Astral Projection was written in the fifties for goodness sakes.  They wanted me to stand naked in front of a mirror every day just getting to "know" my body.  I washed the dang thing everyday since I was a child, I was pretty confident I knew my body.    I took a few pointers from that book and moved on.  And no, the mirror thing was out!

I think a few people on this board would do well to stop trying to pigeonhole everyone else into the definition they think is the correct definition.  Or at least stop trying to get validation from others.  I've been on this board for almost a decade and it seems worse than ever.  I think it's safe to say we all have different views and ways of doing things, instead of analyzing it death, day after day, let's move forward and bring some experiences to the table. 

[personalreality]

I too find many traditions tedious, maybe even unnecessary.  But my personal beliefs aren't really the point.

My point is only that there is value in what people often label as superstition because they are unaware.

That's all.

But, since this is of no interest to you Nay, then this post isn't for you. 

[Naykid]

Please don't misunderstand my allowing others to have a personal opinion and belief, for a lack of interest. 

[blis]

I used to think that magic was just silly superstition, in much the same way that some some of my friends seem to think god is just silly superstition. But I'm starting to think that maybe it was just my definition of what I thought magic was that was silly. That I was misunderstanding the concept in the way that my friends misunderstand the concept of god.

I'm more open to the concept of "magic" now. Whenever I have a look at books in the library though, alot of it, even if it doesnt look too silly, is about stuff that I have no interest in at all. I guess I'm just looking at the wrong books. I dont really care about changing the world around me or amassing riches or finding love or whatever. All I really want to do is affect inner change. I'm sure there must be "magic" out there to help with the sort of things I want but I cant really be arsed reading tons of books that are irrelevant to me to find the good stuff. I'll have a look at the authors you mentioned.

I've wondered if crystals could help me achieve the sort of things I want(I've been too busy learning about other stuff to find out though). All I'm really looking for are ways to help my astral endeavours. My experiences are either far too short or I end up forgetting half of it. I cant fly much faster than I can run and I cant go high enough either. I'm just having lots of short meaningless experiences. Are there any particular types of "magic" or authors you think might be able to help me? I tried the sigil thing you posted about and got very good results to begin with but I think I kind of over did it so it stopped working.

Notice I keep putting the word "magic" in inverted commas. It's because I almost cringe when I say I'm open to the possibility of magic. Whatever you say, magic IS a bad word to most rational people. We need a new word or something for stuff that actually works.

[Killa Rican]

Great Point. The Whole Concept of Magick Is Really Mind Over Matter, Acheiving one's goals through Astral Means. We already do that in the physical. I've Been more open to it lately though since I cant doubt that it's not real lol.

[Xanth]

I figured out a long time ago that there was a relation between what I desired to happen and what actually happened.
I've figured out that all throughout my life I've generally got everything that I desired to have, within reason.
I came to the conclusion that I've done "magick" my entire life without even realizing it... we all have.

Anytime you "desire" something you're sending that energy out into the universe to manifest.  What "medium" does that energy use?  Well, it makes absolute sense to me that it uses the non-physical (astral/subconscious).

[Stookie]

I find the goal of this forum to get people started on their own personal AP path, and Monroe and Frank and Bruce are the best places to start at. Most people here are looking for "practical", and that's what we offer for the beginner. But once you start having experiences, you need to follow your direct path, whether it be simple or ritualistically complicated. I study and practice the teachings of Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy, and I may suggest literature from time to time, but I don't tell anyone else that's what they need to do - I tend to suggest the simpler stuff that's known to work for the beginner. If they can't do that, the concentration/focus required for initiation is going to be impossible.

When the glorious Monroe decided that he would strip away all the ritual from occult practice, not only was he crapping all over something "sacred", he was also making it much less effective.

Oh please, he didn't destroy anything. All of that stuff still exists. It's actually more available to the public than ever, where it was hidden for a long time, strictly for initiates.

Monroe offered a path available for EVERYONE from just about any walk of life, not just a select few.

I don't think anyone here ever stated that magic was bad. It's just rarely discussed here, because Monroe and Frank and Bruce have ALWAYS been norm here. To think we're biased against magic is incorrect. As I said in another post, I don't think anyone here has been initiated into occult/magic groups, and if they have, they don't make it known. They probably spend their time on their own groups website. I would love to see more traditional type discussion.

[horaciocs]

There is a great amount of prejudice involved here. Many give magic rituals a ridiculous and childish connotation, while they're just as good as any other method used to reach the subconscious mind. They are all tools. All that matters is whether they do their job appropriately.

Take celtic shamanism. It is filled with magic rituals, being shamanic journeying the most famous one. Something in between the classic astral projection methods and phasing.

(I'm reading "By Oak Ash and Thorn", by DJ Conway ( http://www.amazon.com/Oak-Ash-Thorn-Shamanism-Llewellyns/dp/156718166X ). It introduces the subject very well and guides you through a number of meditations envolving nature and its inhabitants, most of the time making you meet with beings that can help you with your current issues. They are all very pleasing to go through.)

I think that all, all of the meditation methods (AP, phasing and all else) are ways of stabilishing contact with your subconscious mind and extracting from it some information that can be of use to you.

That is because, in my opinion, we are all subject to a near infinite number of input sources (be it smell, taste, touch, vision, hearing, telepathy, clairvoyance, clairaudience and many many more we're probably not aware of - Probably all means of information exchange). However, our conscious waking state has limited access to them (being limited to the physical senses in most people). It is the subconscious part that accesses them all, so, when we get in contact with the subconscious mind, we receive information from some of those extra input sources. Information we could never get a hold of through our conscious mind alone.

Symbols are a way of communicating with the subconscious, or at least a way of making yourself open to its influences and putting the conscious mind in a receiving state. As I said, tools.

While Frank and Monroe are more methodical and, supposedly, less fantasized than "regular magic", they can be harder to perform. Many feel the need to be in control of the situation at all times and end up using their conscious mind to try to reach input sources it just can't grasp. However, when using other visualization methods and "magic" rituals, it is easier to let yourself go and just enjoy the "trip" rather than to count "3,3,3..2,2,2..1,1,1..1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and BAAM you're in focus 10".

Rather than being in a 3D void, why not make your meditation starting point a place in the woods, with different trees, scents and animals? As long as you can look through the symbols and see their real meanings, I think this is much more enjoyable and useful. You could, once in that state, for instance, picture a lake that launched a full-blown AP once you jumped inside it. Or you could just enjoy the woods, whatever you feel like doing.

Creative visualization is the catch here. You create your reality, you're always in control of it. All it takes is focus and emotional balance.

Edit: If more people (myself included) took the "see a 3d apple in your minds eye" exercise more seriously, everything would be much easier.

[personalreality]

Oh please, he didn't destroy anything. All of that stuff still exists. It's actually more available to the public than ever, where it was hidden for a long time, strictly for initiates.

Monroe offered a path available for EVERYONE from just about any walk of life, not just a select few.

I know, I was just being dramatic.

[Stookie]

I think this thread should have been started to talk about magic, not talk about why some people might not go for it. Seems counterproductive and makes the astral pulse look bad. We're tolerant of all methods or we wouldn't have a sub-forum for it. I stand by my original point - most beginners coming here need a practical place to start that isn't covered with complicated symbolism. Not that it's wrong, but for the sake of simplicity to get someone started. If someone were to ask questions about magic/rituals, would there even be anyone here who can answer? (from experience, not book-read). I wish we did.

[personalreality]

In hindsight, I wish that I would have been taught these "magical" traditions first.  I learned the practical methods that do away with "complicated symbolism", but they allowed me to skip valuable steps.  And I think that your tone expresses my idea perfectly.  You think that magical practice is unnecessarily fluffed up, too much complication for something that is so easy.  (i'm not assuming to know your complete opinion of the subject, just going off your last post.  i know you possess more depth than this one post)  I, on the other hand, view these ritual practices as more comprehensive measures.  You learn in a progressive way the invaluable skills that accompany projection and it's related subjects.  For example, you learn a dedicated visualization experience.  I remember Robert Bruce's big kick being that he understood some people are bad at visualization so he created an alternative.  I say hogwash, it's not that people are bad at visualization, its that they never put in the time and discipline to cultivate the skill (of course I'm excluding the blind people Bruce talks about).  And this is the epitome of what I'm expressing.  So many people think that the old ways were inefficient and unnecessary and so they developed techniques that circumvent the process of connecting with the "otherworlds" and try to jump straight into the pinnacle of the achievement (perceived body separation into the other worlds). 

So it sounds to me like you'd rather see ill prepared students just jump right in.  That's like saying to someone, "No you don't need a learner's permit, you don't need driver's education, just watch me drive around a bit using MY personal technique that i've put a couple years into developing and then we'll just give you your license". 

I'll add more later.

[Stookie]

I'm with you on some points. I started off with very traditional methods that got me moving. It was a very slow process with very little up-front reward. You have to do it for the long run. But I gained a lot of skill, especially with concentration and visualization. Then I found Robert Bruce's rope technique and the very first time I tried it, it worked.

Then I found this forum and Frank gave me a whole different outlook to the entire process, and I used the skills I had learned for phasing and found that was my route for the time being. It was his level of simplicity that was able to push me to the next level. It made perfect sense.

Then experiences became much deeper and less definable. It wasn't so flat-out "this is F10, now I'm in F12, this must be F3". Trying to define my experiences to that seemed... limiting. So I dove back into Steiner hardcore, and EVERYTHING I've learned, from Steiner to Monroe to Bruce to Frank, all plays a big part in my development.

This was for MY development, it's been a VERY personal path, and I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to recreate it. It was for me. And I think we have the tools to help others find their personal path.

So it sounds to me like you'd rather see ill prepared students just jump right in.

Do you really think we're being irresponsible? IMO, none of these methods will have ill-prepared people just jump right in. It still takes a lot of heart and a lot of practice to use Monroe or Bruce's methods. Phasing is far from easy. To me, it's very similar to a lot of old-school exercises where you have to practice concentration and visualization, which is why it vibed so well with me in the beginning. I've mentioned many times on the forum how important concentration and focus is, and the amount it requires for AP takes a lot of practice and discipline.

So yes, I agree it's all much deeper than what Bruce or Monroe could put into a book and turn into an after school activity. But when you get into all the different practices and methods and explanations and rituals and symbolism and states of consciousness, where would you tell someone to start at? If you tell them to read Crowley (a magician known for his "short cuts") and they know nothing about this stuff, you're probably going to turn them off of the whole thing. Same with Steiner. Same with theosophy. And same with magic. To the uneducated, these things will sound like fantasy (which is what you're trying to counteract with this thread ). I'm more than happy to share with people what they want to know about these things, but telling it when no one is asking or cares helps no one.

When someone who knows nothing about it wants to know where to start at, I normally say "close your eyes, relax, quiet your mind, enjoy the process". It's that simple. When they start having experiences and ask where to go from there, it totally depends on what they want to get out of it. It's not for me to say "this is what you have to do next". This forum is limited in itself, we don't have room for all the stuff out there, so we stick with simple methods that allow a person a chance to see that it IS possible for them to do. Without that first, they won't move forward. Keep in mind, Adrian started this forum for his book and for people to discuss modern AP tips.

Have you read any Steiner books I've mentioned here before? I would bet you would be turned off by his mention of the Christ Impulse, and Luciferic & Ahrimanic beings. Xanth would probably tell me they are creations in my mind and expectations from reading Steiner (no offense Xanth, making a point). So I don't go there, I stick with what others can relate to. Get my point?

Maybe you should start some threads in the magic section on where to start at for that type of path. Give some different examples and exercises and see if anyone gravitates towards it.

I agree there are dangers, but I don't think we point anyone in dangerous directions. Everything has been tried and true by lots of people, and we provide a good bit of information on fear and the subconscious and how it effects your experience in the astral.

(I'm far from having any kind of final say in this manner, I realize I could be completely wrong. It's a good topic that should be discussed. But I wrote too much and spent too much time thinking about this. My brain is spewing smoke out of my ears now.)

[Xanth]

hehe none taken. 

[personalreality]

No matter what path you resonate with, you're achieving the same end.

[Taoistguy]

Fundamentally, magic is working with the natural energies of the Universe and any 'astral' realms/dimensions within it. The ultimate aim is pure unselfish spiritual evolution. But many people get wrapped up in using it for their own physical gain in terms of to get money or find love. Magic is a tool. Do we use it at the 'high' end or the 'low' end? I used to do magical rituals and learnt from my mother who also made it work for her. However, you can get your fingers burnt as there is a price to pay. Now I don't use ritualistic magic and prefer to 'spiritually evolve' without it and to naturally let myself attune to the 'cosmic' vibrattions of the Universe. But on saying that, I do practice T'ai Chi, which is a kind of ritual, but I find I don't get burnt from it and it is a 'pure' way to 'evolve'.
Does this make sense or does it come across as meaningless? LOL :\

[personalreality]

makes perfect sense.

any action that one takes with the intent of moving energy is magic.  honestly, the simplest choices we make every day are magic, even if we aren't fully aware of the complexity of these little choices. 

what's the saying, any sufficiently advanced technology appears as magic?  that's my point.  magic is just an understanding of the energy behind reality and the proper way to move it. 

i still use "ceremonial" ritual, but i use it purely as a physical representation of astral energies.

[Taoistguy]

I agree, 'science' is magic; look at turning on a switch to give light, utilising radio waves to transmit voices and images. And yes, magic is all around us. We are like gods, but at the moment we're still in kindergaten, but soon we will be moving to the big kids school! LOL