Reverse Engineering

[Taoistguy]

Just had a suden thought: Given that a lot of people believe that astral travel and dreaming are pretty much the same thing, and that you can astral travel from out of a lucid dream, then has anyone been able to enter a dream or LD whilst starting off by astral travelling?

[NoY]

yes

[Taoistguy]

Wow. Can you elaborate? What did you do during the astral travel? How did you change over? What happened in the dream? Was id lucid? Was it different to normal?

[CFTraveler]

Yes, it is quite easy to exit out of a lucid dream and have an OBE.  Just fly up until there is a change of scenery and you're 'out' of the dream area.
This takes you to the astral plane.  If you want to go to the etheric (RTZ) then think of yourself in your body, feel where you are in bed, don't open your eyes, and then wait for vibrations and exit the old-fashioned way.

[Taoistguy]

So, to enter a dream from the astral, you just fly downwards?

[Xanth]

Yes, it is quite easy to exit out of a lucid dream and have an OBE.  Just fly up until there is a change of scenery and you're 'out' of the dream area.
This takes you to the astral plane.  If you want to go to the etheric (RTZ) then think of yourself in your body, feel where you are in bed, don't open your eyes, and then wait for vibrations and exit the old-fashioned way.

Now my opinion differs slightly in that I don't believe you're going anywhere "different".  The "change" isn't a change in scenery as much as a change/shift in your own conscious awareness.

As for shifting to the RTZ, you don't need to shift back to your body first... simply visualize where you want to be in the RTZ and shift into that.

Again, these are really just slight differences in perspective in how things "can" be done. 

[CFTraveler]

So, to enter a dream from the astral, you just fly downwards?

You're already in the astral in a dream.  But why fly downwards?  Was that a joke?

[CFTraveler]

As for shifting to the RTZ, you don't need to shift back to your body first... simply visualize where you want to be in the RTZ and shift into that.

I hate to tell you that it doesn't work, because the RTZ is a different focus level that you can't 'downshift' to (or it's really difficult, if anyone has tried).  If you try the RTZ directly from the astral, you'll just enter into a scape that looks like the RTZ for maybe a second, and then other stuff will happen to show you it's not- like your room will be under water, with different wallpaper, or with tornadoes in it. Stuff like that.

[Pauli2]

I think it is possbile to go from dream to RTZ, or from astral projection in higher Focus Levels to RTZ. I think at least one of the more well known authors, Peterson/Buhlman/Magnus (?) phased back from an astral area to his body once, just to discover that he was still OBE, but now sitting over his physical body.

But yes, I guess that the astral is the natural area, so once the phase is made it requires a lot of Gorgleblath (energy?) to go back to the RTZ.

I think the AP is like a balloon, each time some weight is dropped, the balloon rises higher.

RTZ is closest to the ground.

Re-entry in the physical is the balloon bursting...

[Taoistguy]

You're already in the astral in a dream.  But why fly downwards?  Was that a joke?

No, was just trying to get a handle on it. Why fly upwards? As was suggested before.

[CFTraveler]

I think it's a subconscious thing.  We think of 'higher' or 'farther out', to get out of your 'personal space'.  So flying upwards works for me. 

[NickisDank]

When your lucid dreaming aren't you in astral.. Which means you are projecting when you realize your dreaming.

[Xanth]

I hate to tell you that it doesn't work, because the RTZ is a different focus level that you can't 'downshift' to (or it's really difficult, if anyone has tried).  If you try the RTZ directly from the astral, you'll just enter into a scape that looks like the RTZ for maybe a second, and then other stuff will happen to show you it's not- like your room will be under water, with different wallpaper, or with tornadoes in it. Stuff like that.

Well, I'll admit I tried it once so far... I shifted, but I woke up after the shift happened.
But really... I'm still not 100% convinced that the "RTZ" is something real.  I'm really on the fence whether it's a "real" (separate) level/area... or if it's just another astral environment like anywhere else we project to.

Either way, I'd like to determine it for myself and as such, will keep you updated on my progress. 

[NickisDank]

When your lucid dreaming aren't you in astral.. Which means you are projecting when you realize your dreaming.

[blis]

If you try the RTZ directly from the astral, you'll just enter into a scape that looks like the RTZ for maybe a second, and then other stuff will happen to show you it's not- like your room will be under water, with different wallpaper, or with tornadoes in it. Stuff like that.

Wow I think I've been misunderstanding this for ages. So the RTZ has to look very similar to the real world or its not the RTZ?

Because most of the time I exit into the RTZ and by the time I've gotten maybe half a mile from my body everything is different. Not like a CLICK! moment, I'm still aware of where I "am", its just that things are different.

Like in my last projection I climbed out my body, went outside and headed south. After a few hundred metres I glanced away from where I was going and when I looked back things had changed. The fence I was heading to was still there but on the other side was a helicopter with a load of people standing round it listening to a woman in an air force uniform giving a speech.

The prison I'm in is situated on what used to be an old airforce base so I just assumed things from different times were mixing and that sort of stuff could happen in the RTZ. So are you saying it was my subconscious creating the airforce theme and that I'd slipped from the RTZ into a LD?

[Xanth]

When your lucid dreaming aren't you in astral.. Which means you are projecting when you realize your dreaming.

As I see it, yes.

I see the two states as being the same, with YOU being the separating difference.  Well, more to the point, your conscious awareness.

Hence why I dislike using the terms "Lucid Dreaming" and "Astral Projection"... because they externalize something which is actually internal in nature.
I've moved to using terms I created, like, having "Lucid Awareness" and "Astral Awareness".  This moves the idea of projection from something you do, to something you are.

Then you have what you were just speaking about... not realizing you're projecting, being a dream.
I call this having "Dream Awareness".  Basically, you're in the non-physical, but do not realize this fact... you think you're fully awake and living your physical life.