how many of you belive?

[tenshi_R]

that whatever you belive will happen?

if you belive theres heaven and god you will find it

if you belive that theres nothing after death then it will be so

and if you belive theres higher beiing and different dimensions etc you will find that as well


but that all is true, and your belief is what picks the direction you re going, and ignore the rest.

[Stillwater]

But the idea that ties this all up, that your expectations will determine your future reality, is yet another type of belief. True, it is a belief about beliefs, but being a second-order belief does not excuse it from the same points of dispute.

I guess the question here is the difference between belief and knowledge. Some philosophers consider a belief to be a statement that is accepted, but with insufficient justification. Knowledge, then, is a statement that is accepted, with sufficient justification, and is also true.

A problem that leads into, however, is what constitutes sufficient justification. For instance, there is the problem of "wolf valley". Suppose a person is in a certain valley, which has two parts, separated by a tall hill. Now they see some sheep in front of them, and they claim as a point of knowledge that, "There are sheep in wolf valley". Now it would seem that this statement is knowledge, since it is accepted, true, and with sufficient justification. Now suppose that the sheep this person sees in wolf valley are actually wolves wearing sheepskin; but there are also real sheep on the other side of the hill, in the valley, but not seen by this person. Does the person still have knowledge that there are sheep in wolf valley? The person did have reasonable justification, and the fact did turn out to be indirectly true, but the justification was none-the-less not valid, since it did not directly lead to the truth of the knowledge.

So does this person have knowledge, or merely belief? Is justification based on what "seems" to guarantee, or what actually does? Because if knowledge, like that in wolf valley, can only be obtained by perfect, "actual" justification, then none of us can ever have any knowledge, since we only ever experience what seems to be. As a result, all we think or know can only ever be beliefs.

[tenshi_R]

but many people confuse "know" with "belive".

"i know god exists" statement while most of the population belives, is a speculation.

how can we even know something when everything is relative? technically speaking we dont know sht:), we just belive something to be so, according to our experiences.


off topic but i loled when i thought if ancient greek philosophers had internet and message boards available.


so the word "know" should only be reserved for gods if we only belive then "know" is not real in this world.

[Taoistguy]

I don't beleive as such as there is so much being claimed about the date.

I have known about LD and OBE since I was a jid, but one day a few months ago I got such an overwhelming desire in my head that it was important to learn about these things. Then a friend on facebook started going on about 2012 so I tookk a look at the youtube vids and websites about it.

What i found was a lot of nonsense; lots of different people claiming to be emmissaries from planet Zog or wherever and how the aliens were gonna come and give us star trek type of food dispensers and clean the planet and such stuff like that.

However, I found that my urge to learn more about LD and OBE happened just before the Galactic Convergence, which I think was in June or July. I have found lots of people I know having dd dreams of late in various ways. Maybe this "waking up" thing holds some truth?

I so feel there is a planetary consciousness shift of some sort happening. I for one can't beleive we are living the way we are and I know there are thoudands of people who think like me, with many more on the cusp of thinking like this and ready to embrace a new way of living.

But again, I could be completely wrong and sufferingfrom some sort of psychosis?

Time will tell.

[radman32]

But if you think of our collective unconsciousness, our combined perspectives, that forms a god like being. So technically, we all know we're god, yet we as individuals I only know my own channel of it.

[Taoistguy]

How do you know it forms a godlike being. The concept of a collective unconscious is a dubious theory to begin with; How do you make that leap to a god thing?

[tenshi_R]

how do you know its a dubious theory?

can a single cell of your human body see itsself as a part of something bigger? probably not. it might not have consciousness.

so cant we see that we might be a part of a bigger system. just because were not connected physically like siamese twins doesnt mean were not connected at all.

individual cells make up the body.induvidual humans make up society.

we age definitely more complex than cells but we only are aware of our plane of existence

[Taoistguy]

how do you know its a dubious theory?

Because there is no proof for it. Even those few who believe in something like it differ greatly in the explanation of that belief.

can a single cell of your human body see itsself as a part of something bigger? probably not. it might not have consciousness.

I don't know.

so cant we see that we might be a part of a bigger system. just because were not connected physically like siamese twins doesnt mean were not connected at all.

Might. Just cos it might, doesn't mean it's true.

individual cells make up the body.induvidual humans make up society.

we age definitely more complex than cells but we only are aware of our plane of existence

Does that mean each cell has it's own spirit/soul? How come people don't meet these astral entities in the astral?

[personalreality]

Most modern evidence for a collective unconscious comes from Carl Jung and the archetypes he identified.  The idea of themes common across all human civilization.  Now whether there is a collective unconscious in the psychic sense, that's hard to determine.  At the very least there is something common about how we think in our shared DNA.

[Naykid]

My husband used to say to me 'we'll all find out soon enough, why worry about it now?' when I would ask him how he felt about life after death and it used to get me a bit angry.  I mean, here I was with this urgent need to know if what I was experiencing was part of the answer and he could give nothing more than a shoulder shrug. 

I'm pleased to say, I get it now.  Proof or no proof, it doesn't matter.  Believing or not will not change what really happens, so why worry?

[Stillwater]

My husband used to say to me 'we'll all find out soon enough, why worry about it now?' when I would ask him how he felt about life after death and it used to get me a bit angry.  I mean, here I was with this urgent need to know if what I was experiencing was part of the answer and he could give nothing more than a shoulder shrug. 

I'm pleased to say, I get it now.  Proof or no proof, it doesn't matter.  Believing or not will not change what really happens, so why worry?

Sometimes I think that if there is indeed a metaphysical reality, as I think there likely is, that maybe we are just not supposed to know about it, or at least have certainty.

I mean, part of the human experience is having doubt about the fate of human consciousness, and that tends to make our present lives more precious. Since we mostly all have doubt about what is beyond our scope, we are better allowed to live in the present moment, and immerse ourselves in the experience of this reality and its dramas. I mean, sure lots of people want more knowledge, but there are some things you can only experience through ignorance. I mean, can a being that has lived for the equivalent of millions of years of awareness really feel the same joy sitting at a piano, or feel same thankfulness toward elders protecting us as children? How can a million year-old being feel even feel vulnerable?


It is like our lives are the most immersive play possible. In a normal play, you merely watch a recreation of the action, and need exposition to surmise what the actors are thinking and feeling. In this one, you actually get to be the actor themself, and get immersed in their world and emotions, feel their limitations and their joys.

[Naykid]

Very nice, Stillwater. 

[tenshi_R]

taoist guy you are putting words in my mouth... or something like that.

i never mentioned that cells might have soul. i simply used them as an example.

cells are a part of something bigger, but they are individual at the same time. as far as them beeing aware that they are part of the body i dont know, but from what science found they are most likely not aware since they are simple organisms.

humans are much more advanced but still living organisms, and to think that we are the most advanced and theres nothing beyond us is stupid.

[personalreality]

cells might not have awareness as we think of it, but they are certainly aware of their position and the position of their neighbors.  whether they're aware of the larger universe that they exist in (the body) i can't say, but i'm sure they are aware in some sense (not lesser or greater than our own, just different).

[WASD]

if you belive theres heaven and god you will find it

if you belive that theres nothing after death then it will be so

and if you belive theres higher beiing and different dimensions etc you will find that as well

I agree on that.

[Killa Rican]

I used to have the same mindset. But truth is you either BELIEVE in a Metaphysical Reality, or you dont. Your going to put yourself through hell pondering in between. I really cant do that any longer though.

And fortunately for me I can confidently say i KNOW There is a Metaphysical Reality. Yeah yeah your going to say thats just a "Belief" too based upon my subjective experiences and interpretations. But I have confidence in believing so because in my Journey when asking "What came first the Chicken Or The Egg?", The Chicken ended up coming first. There's really no other way around it, I have no choice but to believe and not dismiss it.

[CFTraveler]

Not for me.  You can adopt provisional beliefs for the sake of getting more out of an experience.  For example, when I meet an entity, I am of the provisional belief that they have something important to teach/tell me.  It doesn't mean I believe it, but I find that if I operate on that premise, I get more out of the experience.

[Stillwater]

I used to have the same mindset. But truth is you either BELIEVE in a Metaphysical Reality, or you dont. Your going to put yourself through hell pondering in between. I really cant do that any longer though.

Well, you could also take the stance that there is not enough information to make a final conclusion. Most of the philosophers I know don't have too many concrete beliefs, because they have been exposed to too much plurality, and have heard the counterargument to every metaphysical assertion.

It will really only bother you if you let it... and on some levels, regardless of the metaphysical reality, the way you live your life will be the same. If you believe in compassion and helping others, you will likely do so whether you believe in a god, some other metaphysical substrate, or neither of these; the same goes for seeking new or transcendent experiences, or for meditative practices. Many spiritual ways of life, such as some forms of Buddhism, are remarkably independent of any metaphysical framework that they might associate with.

If you are unsure, you will find out soon enough (or you won't!  ). If you live without expectations, you will always be surprised!

[tenshi_R]

that is a good point about plurality.


if you belive one thing than in one point of view it makes the other false.


if you know more than one view and they all true what then?

what does it mean?

[Taoistguy]

Just cos more than 1 thing is true does not cancel them out. Take the sayings:

"Birds of a feather flock together."
AND
"Opposittes attract."

Both are true, but in different contexts.

[CFTraveler]

that is a good point about plurality.


if you belive one thing than in one point of view it makes the other false.


if you know more than one view and they all true what then?

what does it mean?

It means you have 'cognitive dissonance'.

[owl]

All I know for sure is that "I am".

[personalreality]

It means you have 'cognitive dissonance'.

or does it?? 

[Stillwater]

It does. By definition 

[personalreality]

lol.  cognitive dissonance is one of my favorite phrases in school, especially when i'm talking to professors.  i like to point their's out to them.   

but the tenshi also mentioned all perspectives being true, so maybe all truth is true (i suppose that all falsity is false too?), even if cognitively these truths don't match up with eachother.  the paradox oOOOOoOooOo.  that's what makes metaphysics fun.