What's your interpretation of this? (gnostic)

[Karas]

I wana see what your views are on the following. Could it be a prophecy that is  fulfilled? 


THE DISCIPLES SEE THE TEMPLE AND DISCUSS IT

They [said, "We have seen] a great [house with a large] altar [in it, and] twelve men—they are the priests, we would say—and a name; and a crowd of people is waiting at that altar, [until] the priests [... and receive] the offerings. [But] we kept waiting."
 
[Jesus said], "What are [the priests] like?"

They [said, "Some ...] two weeks; [some] sacrifice their own children, others their wives, in praise [and] humility with each other; some sleep with men; some are involved in [slaughter]; some commit a multitude of sins and deeds of lawlessness. And the men who stand [before] the altar invoke your [name], [39] and in all the deeds of their deficiency, the sacrifices are brought to completion [...]."
After they said this, they were quiet, for they were troubled.
 
 
 
JESUS OFFERS AN ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION OF THE VISION OF THE TEMPLE

Jesus said to them,
"Why are you troubled? Truly I say to you, all the priests who stand before that altar invoke my name. Again I say to you, my name has been written on this [...] of the generations of the stars through the human generations. [And they] have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner."
Jesus said to them,
"Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar—that is who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray [40] before that altar. [...] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to him.
 
After him another man will stand there from [the fornicators], and another [will] stand there from the slayers of children, and another from those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution and lawlessness and error, and those who say, 'We are like angels'; they are the stars that bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said, 'Look, God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest'—that is, a minister of error. But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, 'On the last day they will be put to shame.'" [41]
Jesus said [to them],
"Stop sac[rificing ...] which you have [...] over the altar, since they are over your stars and your angels and have already come to their conclusion there. So let them be [ensnared] before you, and let them go [—about 15 lines missing—] generations [...]. A baker cannot feed all creation [42] under [heaven]. And [...] to them [...] and [...] to us and [...].
Jesus said to them,
"Stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star, and every[body—about 17 lines missing—] [43] in [...] who has come [... spring] for the tree [...] of this aeon [...] for a time [...] but he has come to water God's paradise, and the [generation] that will last, because [he] will not defile the [walk of life of] that generation, but [...] for all eternity."

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mistic/gospel_judas.htm 

[CFTraveler]

I think the things this parable/account talks about, is stuff that was happening then.  The thing about scripture (be it orthodox or apocryphal) is that it can be applied to almost any time or culture, that's why some of us interpret it metaphysically, as some did way back then, especially the gnostics.

[Karas]

True, plus history repeats itself over and over. In the next 1,000 years and someones reads the scripture they prolly think that it's talking about there era...

[Rudolph]

That's from the Gospel of Judas, right?
It is mostly unintelligible and only made worse by the missing sections. If you read the whole thing it is pretty depressing.

Gnosticism today is a confused mishmash of whacky ideas, imo. I can't think of one School with a disciplined program that actually gets real results.

[Karas]

That's from the Gospel of Judas, right?
It is mostly unintelligible and only made worse by the missing sections. If you read the whole thing it is pretty depressing.

Gnosticism today is a confused mishmash of whacky ideas, imo. I can't think of one School with a disciplined program that actually gets real results.

yea I hate the missing sections and no doubt the bible scrolls were the same, they would just make up the blanks to fit the story... How is it depressing? It shows how jesus's 11 followers who still couldn't understand who Jesus was but judas new and that's why he confronted him by saying ""I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you."
he new that Jesus' god wasn't the god of israel but a diffrnt god. God of love which is why the others were saying ""Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right." they gave thanks to god of Israel and that's why Jesus says "I am not laughing at you. <You> are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised."
notised how he says "your god"?
In the bible he rejects all yahweh's laws and saved a woman who did a crime and the law of Yahweh is for her to get stoned. Jesus saved her and told her not to sin again. (forgiveness)
in john, Jesus told the Jews/Israel that there father is a lier and a murderer. The Jews were following the laws of there god Yahweh. Only judas new this from what that scripture says and it also explains why he got so depressed that he killed himself in the bible. The story of judas is a sad story and it's a shame no one will see that he's really a good person and saw the truth.

      "You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will curse your ascent [47] to the holy [generation]." this has been fufilled.
 


 

[Rudolph]

What was depressing? I thought the part about how, "none of you will see/know that generation" which sounded like they were allowed to see a high and exalted community but they would not reach that level.

Here they were under the direct, personal tutelage of one of the most exalted Souls to ever walk the Earth yet they would not progress to the level that they could and would only see in a vision.

From reading the Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi scrolls and these other apocryphal works it looks like the region was filled with all sorts of conflicting teachings and the written work was meant to supplement verbal instruction. Apparently even the apostles were mostly clueless and that is why the whole Teaching disintegrated shortly after the Master left.

[Karas]

Oh that part. When I read that part I was thinking of Jesus doing time traveling lol He does seem to come and go like a ghost. That's all I think of and it does make sence why he said that they can't see that generation in that sence but maby they didn't understand that.

I'm thinking this could be the future where all humans are holy in a spiritual way. What you think?
"I went to another great and holy generation."

[AndrewTheSinger]

I suppose he was talking about the holy people of the eternal realms. He said they were not from this aeon, and no mortals could associate with them, nor any deity of the heavens.

[Karas]

I suppose he was talking about the holy people of the eternal realms. He said they were not from this aeon, and no mortals could associate with them, nor any deity of the heavens.

was Jesus was born in the 8th heaven? he wad set higher then the lower gods. Jesus and the virgin spirit I think it was. Then I think Sophia was higher rank then Jesus since she made Adam and eve for the lower gods cause they ruined her stuff. I think I got the story right

[AndrewTheSinger]

Yes, the 8th is the first indestructible aeon, from lowest to highest, referred to as Ogdoad. In the Apocalypse of Paul he describes his ascent to the 10th heaven.

Pistis Sophia is Pigera-Adamas' consort, and Seth is their son, also called Jesus. This was before the creation of this cosmos. Then Pistis decided to create another realm without her consort...

[Rudolph]

I have all but given up on trying to make sense of these Gnostic Aeons. When I read the Gospel of Judas I started investigating and found that apart from the Hebrew style, there were several Greek systems that differed from each other in significant ways.

In the Basilidian Gnosis they are called sonships (υἱότητες huiotetes; sing.: υἱότης huiotes); according to Marcus, they are numbers and sounds; in Valentinianism they form male/female pairs called "syzygies"

Does anyone here really understand how it works and whether it is at all useful to contemporary disciples of Truth?

[AndrewTheSinger]

I've been studying Sethian gnosticism, so not all of the texts have useful informations since they come from other groups which had variant interpretations.

The Gospel of Judas is also Sethian, and some from the Nag Hammadi library.

[CFTraveler]

Does anyone here really understand how it works

Not in my case.

and whether it is at all useful to contemporary disciples of Truth?

I think every bit of information is useful to contemporary truthseekers, because we can see how many different ideas about reality developed in those formative years, and we can also see where some ideas that are accepted nowadays came from.  For example, if you read some of the gnostic gospels (I'm thinking Peter here, for example) you see a lot of Catholic tradition that comes from what it says in it, even though some of these ideas are not found in the officially approved gospels.
So it's all interesting information, and I do think valuable- it's just that the value sometimes takes a while to become apparent, differently for everyone.

[Rudolph]

For example, if you read some of the gnostic gospels (I'm thinking Peter here, for example) you see a lot of Catholic tradition that comes from what it says in it, even though some of these ideas are not found in the officially approved gospels.

Do you think a lot of the Catholic Tradition really came from the Gnostic Gospels? or could the Gnostic Gospels simply be a recording of a sufficiently well entrenched tradition that the Catholics simply kept alive?

I think that to say that those traditions came from the "Gnostic" gospels is a little like saying that oxygen comes from the Periodic Table of Elements. 

[AndrewTheSinger]

If you're looking for apples and all they can offer you are grapes, then I guess you can say they're not being useful. I really like to read everything about ancient traditions, but specially sethianism because it explains everything. So it's like they say, 'get the big fish, discard the small ones'.

[CFTraveler]

Do you think a lot of the Catholic Tradition really came from the Gnostic Gospels? or could the Gnostic Gospels simply be a recording of a sufficiently well entrenched tradition that the Catholics simply kept alive?

I think that to say that those traditions came from the "Gnostic" gospels is a little like saying that oxygen comes from the Periodic Table of Elements. 

Some things are more specific than others, Rudolph.  If you have a church teaching, for example, that celebrates resurrection as happening exactly three days later, and then you have a gospel that talks about how Jesus went to hell and came back three days later, it's not hard to see where it came from.
Of course, the gnostics, being greek, had their own cultural tradition, but I don't see the objection, as anything taught in most religions has evolved and changed as to not to be exactly pinpointed to it's origins.

[CFTraveler]

If you're looking for apples and all they can offer you are grapes, then I guess you can say they're not being useful. I really like to read everything about ancient traditions, but specially sethianism because it explains everything. So it's like they say, 'get the big fish, discard the small ones'.

Exactly my point.  Thanks, Andrew.

[Rudolph]

Some things are more specific than others, Rudolph.  If you have a church teaching, for example, that celebrates resurrection as happening exactly three days later, and then you have a gospel that talks about how Jesus went to hell and came back three days later, it's not hard to see where it came from.
Of course, the gnostics, being greek, had their own cultural tradition, but I don't see the objection, as anything taught in most religions has evolved and changed as to not to be exactly pinpointed to it's origins.

Not hard to see where it comes from, true. Certainly not the Gospel of Phillip in any specific manner or any of the Gnostic gospels any more than the canonical Gospels, which clearly describe the death and ressurection three days later.

The Greek traditions existed long before the Gospels recorded them. To claim that the Catholics got the tradition from a gospel is missing the point. The tradition and practice predated the recording of the tradition in a book.

I also think we need to recognize Hebrew "Gnosticism". The Scroll discoveries of the last century make it clear that the Judean, Aramaic speaking and also Coptic communities had gnostic type traditions that may have stemmed from the Greek Schools but may have even more likely developed straight out of Egyptian tradition.

Just FYI, Catholic scholars will be the first to tell you that much worship and practice stems from tradition as much as from scripture. This is in fact, part of the Protestant sola scriptura controversies. They would criticize the RC Church for certain practices that "aren't in the Bible" and the Church scholars would simply reply, "Right, it stems from tradition" (in a "you gotta problem w' dat?" type posture) and of course the Protestants had a big enough problem with that such that all of Europe was launched into near endless war over it. Pre-Reformation Europe enjoyed a very long stretch of peace and relative prosperity that ended abruptly with Martin Luther's egotistical self-indulgence. Luther himself expressed his regrets on his deathbed about wishing he hadn't made such extreme choices. He was horrified at the bloodshed that his method of protest unleashed.