Magic & AP: Where their paths cross

[Selea]

Well, of course it is people that I have met. How else would I know? Note that I am not just talking about the value of "having the experience" but I am replying to the claim "essentially all Initiates gain the ability to go OBE at will".

Where I claimed that? You are now fabricating things. I said that it is possible, not that all "initiaties" (what the word it means, then?) can do it. In fact there are a lot of people that think they are "initiated" that cannot do it.

I pointed out that not only is that not true but it is a gross exaggeration, at best. I observed that not only do most initiates not gain the ability but even some in high office and advanced initiation status will privately admit they have not ever gotten a conscious OBE. (Their ritual test success stemmed more from a "remote viewing" type effort).

And I repeat that those "initiates" you have met they mean nothing at all.

Then "remote viewing" is a part of exploring the astral planes. There are some orders (as the SOL now, after the death of Butler) who prefers to don't use a full conscious transfer of consciousness to do what they have to do, and the "teachings" on that are only later and only if the students want. Sometimes people neither try because for what they want to do it is not either needed.

For other orders it is different because they use the "planes" in a different manner, so full conscious transfer is needed. The A.'.A.'. is one of them. It also depends on what a magical order wants to accomplish.

But a thing it is sure: a magical order primary function is to learn the control of the astral plane. So if the "orders" you have been and people you have met cannot do it it means that they have learned nothing. It would be like trying to learn boxing without ever trying to spar. Personally I don't either like the new SOL method because full consciousnes it is needed to do certain things, but to anyone his/her own, I guess.

And apart this, don't you think if those people you talk about really wanted to learn to do these things couldn't find a way to do them? Also if they are really teached nothing of the sort, or nothing that works, they could just look around and try the many other methods you find in the net, included the very easy to adopt sleep ones. Do you think they cannot read?

The problem is much more simple. Many people in open "magical" orders (that aren't orders at all) just like to babble around about what they don't know as if they are experts and yet when there's really to do work, they never do it. But this can be said on a general note and not only for what it concerns OBE and not only on open, "magical" orders (you find evidence also here, in fact). It is just that in these open to the public orders this sort of ego show happens a lot because people just meet to talk and talk. They share this and share that, they talk of this and talk of that, but they do nothing in the end. And we return to why some people understood that this method of working it doesn't bring anything good and they devised other ways and just did give a "bait" for those people to simply continue what they like to do.

Many people in the OTO, for example, have had either the possibility of entering the A.'.A.'. and start learning seriously, but they *voluntarily* didn't do it because they knew they had to do real work instead of talking and talking (and they either sometimes admit it). Some people just want to be "armchair magicians" and that's all. Still, just because they do nothing, they learn nothing and they little they do it serves nothing in the end the same because it has no structure. So, judging "magical" orders on these people it is nonsense, and you either think you are looking good doing it.

You know the motto: "be careful for what you ask for, you can obtain it". This is exactly what happens, and, I repeat, not only in some "magical" orders, but in every field.

If possible I would like to stick to the actual challenges and claims that have been made. For example the claim that the Body of Light method is "1000 times better"; Given that most initiates fail in this method while other methods succeed at a much higher rate, I do not know how you can such a statement. I mean... it is so obviously False!... what gives?

It's not false. It is just that they haven't been shown how it works.

The "method" has two ways of working. The first is literally (and practically) a trick, the second it requires basis on many practices and especially full concentration, a thing that all "initiates" you have met don't either know where to begin from to have.

So, or those people have met someone that did show that method in practice, meeting in person, or they have nothing to say about it apart intellectual debate.

And then you still insist on bringing up these "initiates" as proof of something. First who are these "initiates" and on what "order" they are? There's in that "order" someone that teaches that technique directly, in person? How they do it?

If you ask someone that pretends to be a master of chess yet in practice s/he has 1200 ECO to tell how how a certain positional strategy works therein, would you then pretend that what s/he tolds you it is how it must be?

First you insist that those "initiates" know nothing but then you insist that what they told you it's how things must be because it is how you want them to be. You should make-up your mind a little. The fact that they even tried the method (and I would like to see it) it doesn't mean that they know how to do it.

If somebody would come here telling you that the sleep methods don't work because he clearly mistakes something in the process would you believe him/her the same? The people you speak upon have never received a formal training in that technique, nor they know how it works. General people that tries do it without knowing how it works do it as a phasing method, but that's NOT how it works. If you do it that way you just lose time. It can work the same after a while, but there are many better alternatives.

Naturally you can either believe that what I'm telling you it is not true. It's perfectly fine, but don't pretend that what those people told you must be the truth instead, just because you want it to be. Or you go in one direction (i.e. believing only what you can experience) or you go in the opposite. Middle grounds for convenience are never an intelligent behaviour.

If it didn't really work how do you pretend that neophytes of an order are teached it usually in just the first personal section and use it everyday to do their work?

Either Crowley said this (if you want to have a "quote" as if that would mean anything):
"The experiment is an easy one; with two pupils only (of some dozens) I have failed, and that completely; with the others only a first experiment is needed." This is how the method works and how it must be teached and the way it must be adopted. It is a trick. At the time of Crowley with some people it could fail for the way the trick works and the knowledge of the times in those matters this could happen (Bennet, the deviser of that trick, was a genius and a precursor, but still some things were impossible to know at at time). Now there are alternatives to always make it work.

But I suppose either Crowley did made it up and those "initiates" know better, isn't it? Belive what you want, I don't care. I would only like you to be fair therein.

Then what does have "success" rate or either practicality for beginners who knows nothing about it to do with this it is beyond me. Have I ever only once said that the BoL is "superior" on these points? It doesn't seem to me, and in fact I NEVER said it (I said the contrary, in fact). Why you continuosly fabricate things I never said just to try to have a point on something? And then you either try to contradict it as if I was the one saying it. Is this a common behaviour you and others like you have?

I explained on what things the technique is superior and the "1000 times better" is not on a whole. A Ferrari is 1000 time superior than a Fiat in every possible point technically speaking but an user can find better the latter for price/costs, for the way he uses the car and what he wants to do with it and either because it's much easier to drive. My "superior" claim was on this aspect as I thought it was obvious (given the context, that I either explained fullly later), but naturally people have always to turn aside things just to look smart and have a point either if they know little of the things they speak about.

I said nothing about a 'debate' with these would be Magicians. I spoke of casual conversation. And it was not necessarily on an open forum.
(my bold)

It was a simple deduction by how you talked about these things, and it seems, in fact, I was not wrong.

And so now they were "casual conversations"? It seemed to me all another thing, in fact:

"If you spend enough time among them and just get to where you can comfortably chat about this and that, occasional comments will drop that reveal just how little progress most of these serious, hardcore would be Magicians are truly making."

"But I spent some time among them and after much circumlocution..."

There's nothing about "casual conversations" in there, it implied all the contrary, in fact.

So, do you know really all of this personally, are they assumptions derived from random talks or you just are relying on hearsay? Not that what you said it's not true, because it is, but still, there's a difference.

This is simply not true. Some forums are better than others. And some are not just frequented by serious, capable Magicians but are created and moderated by and maintained by world renowned leaders in the field.
(particularly the Thelemic Orders).

It depends on what you mean by the term "capable". If you mean by it genuine magicians that do personal work and share their experiences, yes, there are (also if they are not so common), if you mean by it people that have received a structured teaching, no, there aren't and if there are they don't speak about them. Thelemic forums are only frequented (in the sense that they "share" what they know or talk about it) by OTO people or people that are interested in thelemic matters (and also magic in general), and I already told you what's the difference. Students of the A.'.A.'. for example are advised against going on those forums and if you are found there passing a lot of time you can either be removed without possibility of entering again. This is done for various motives. So, you see, "thelemic" people (I use the term "thelemic" here for a motive, to evidentiate the type of training) that have received real structured instructions are seldomly found in those forums and if they are they never speak about what they do or debate on it.

There are only two people I know of that have this structured teaching and are there often: Bill Heidrick and DuQuette, but the first usually speaks only on things pertaining closely to OTO "affairs" and Lon he goes there for fun, mostly, and only with hidden handles, so you can neither understand when it's him, and surely both never speaks about serious things pertaining teachings and such, if not in a joking way and if not privately and when it's due.

[Selea]

No you didn't. Unless I missed it in there somewhere -- perhaps you could paste in a couple of these "specifics and practical things"...? I am pretty sure that they aren't there. In fact, in the case of your hand waving at the Middle Pillar, I was the one who posted the link with any sort of practical info.

You asked how to exit voluntarily, I told you from where to start.

You didn't ask about how the BoL method works. So don't say you have asked something. I explained why it is better, because it enables you do have a control that you cannot have with sleep methods (that you use). This I explained fully, rearead that thread, so, yes, you missed it.

In this matter, I am the one challenging YOUR claim. I am not the one that needs to be concrete here on this topic, you are. On another thread I made a claim about the historicity of Jesus and I was challenged. I replied with direct quotes from near-contemporary historians to back up my claim. I can and will be concrete when that ball is in my court.

And in what matter I can do it? The only way I could show you directly would be that you would learn how to do it to see the difference in *practice* for yourself.

All I can do here is explaining you the differences, as I've already done, nothing more, but they are words, and you can always not believe in them.

Backing up a claim on some philosophical or historical thing it's another matter because you can back-up your statements with quotes, as you have done. When you go into practical things if you don't have that experience yourself I can only tell you what it happens but you can always confute it, saying that what I say it's not true, no matter how many "quotes" I provide, isn't it?

Or do you expect me to magically appear in your home and be your Don Juan?

Totally irrelevant observation. I have not rquested that anyone 'teach' anything... only that you back up your claim with something that supports it. I am getting the distinct impression that you do not know how this works.

On the contrary, I know exactly how it works. You ask a thing, I reply to that thing, but then you don't like it so you continuosly try to find ways to put it down. This is what always happens.

"they think "it is all idiocy then""   Selea, I do not recall where anyone has said anything like this. What are you talking about? I never said anything close to that. You on the other hand keep using the 'idiot' word on a regular basis.

You insisted that all "magicians" knows nothing about OBEs and whatnot. I just told you that what you "discovered" is just idiocy.

And yes, I use the word "idiot" when it's due. I don't use it when someone is really an idiot, I use it when someone it's not but s/he wants to play that card for convenience, as you are doing.

!! wow! yet another patently false claim....
The O.T.O.'s specific purpose is to secure the Liberty of the Individual and his or her advancement in the Light, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, and Power through Beauty, Courage, and Will.

Crowley never estabilished a formal teaching curriculum for the OTO (and he did so purposedly, because the A.'.A.'. is for real teaching, the OTO is just the repository of a certain "secret" and sharing of a certain phylosphy of life - if you care about it). There is no TEACHING in it, at all. Nobody teaches you anything in the OTO, you only "learn" what other members share to you (so very little, because they know little to begin with) or you do for yourself.

The phrase it is to be read in regard to the free mason "secrets" that are held in its late degrees and especially on sharing the so called "law of thelema" and the precepts of the Book of Law, but it is NOT (again) a teaching order, at all.

You either insist than I'm giving false informations when you don't either know of what you are talking about to begin with. Why instead of always pretending you know better sometimes you don't consider the fact that maybe you can be wrong, and that, in fact, you can also not know nothing "better" at all?

Either more here, because I don't think you pretend to be an expert in the OTO and Crowley, isn't it?

What do you think it is that I am talking about? I keep repeating for you... you said the body of light method is a thousand times better and I keep asking you to back that up but you keep replying with irrelevant OTO and A.'.A.'. smokescreens.

A) We never talked about the BoL method directly to begin with. You did never asked NOTHING about it, you just asked me a way to "exit" voluntarily. They are two separate things, don't you know? They can be tied in the fact that learning one of the two ways to do the BoL technique enables you to exit voluntarily, but they are not both the same thing. The BoL it is just a technique, "exit voluntarily" it is a method that's based on a certain knowledge. You can either not use the BoL method at all when you know how to do somet things, for example.
B) It is you that insisted that the orders you have met had people that didn't knew neither how to do an OBE, not me. You brought upon the OTO as an example and I replied to you that the OTO it is not meant for that. I'm just replying to what you said.

This has nothing to do with my 'search'. I have said that I asked a simple question about OBE and was told that essentially all initiates learn to go OBE at will. Based on what I've seen, I believe that claim is a gross exaggeration.

And I repeat, what you have "seen" it's nothing at all. And I repeat (since you discarded it altogheter): OBES ARE LEARNT IN THE 1ST DEGREE OF THE A.'.A.'., IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE TESTED IN IT BEFORE PASSING ON. So, it's clear that the "experienced" Thelemic magicians you have met don't mean nothing at all because they obviously didn't either partecipate in that "magical" teaching, isn't it?

The thelemic order that teaches magic and mysticism in a structured manner as devised by Crowley it is the A.'.A.'. and only that. The OTO it's not a teaching order and especially NOT a magical order. A magical order is an order structured primarily on the working of the astral plane and its practical applications. The OTO it is not meant for that, the function of the OTO is only to held a special "secret". and to share the "law of thelema", ONLY that.

The A.'.A.'. neither share at all the "law of Thelema" as the OTO does, for example, the Book of Law is neither mentioned there if not for some practical application in some passages, or for a philosophical study (among many other different point of views).

As for others "magicians" it depends who they are and especially where they are. In general terms, if it is an order that's open to the public (as the ones you have partecipated in) then what you "discovered" was already obvious if instead of making assumptions and pretending you know better you would have researched a little more about how these things really works. So, or you really do a real research or just avoid posting false things that are born only from superficial assumptions.

Selea, please try to reply to what I am actually saying and simply asking and stop replying to your arrogant, presumptuous and condescending opinions on what you fear I am saying.

OMG. Now you play the innocent.

You began saying that all the "orders" you have frequented had people with fables and nothing of concrete. I replied to you that the "orders" you have frequented means nothing at all and that you don't either know where to search (as in the OTO). I'm just replying to what YOU are saying. Now it either comes out that your "evidence" is from "casual talk". Oh my....

Again, this is completely irrelevant... unless you can be more specific and provide detail about this *real* order...?....

It's not irrelevant at all. The old GD was structured so that the internal order was in the degrees from adeptus minor onward. Members changed that and it now has two orders, one external and one internal. And no, I cannot tell you the name of the internal order, I'm sorry.

Really! And please tell me how it is that you came to be privy to so much personal and intimate detail of my life? (this oughta be good...)  

How is it that you know, "It is obvious that these people are not good"?

"A teacher has at most 3 students to care of at once" -- Have you ever been a student of these unseen teachers in unknown orders?

A) I reply to what you write. It's as simple as that. You make assumptions I reply to assumptions.
B) Because they are there for a motive, as I already explained. As for the OTO, people in it I know much too well personally and, apart higher degrees, there's nothing "good" in there (apart seldom cases that however, usually, don't frequent the groups), but this is how it must work.
C) I have.

[Selea]

Selea, relax why dontcha....

We were not discussing you or even the merits of your claim but rather if the statement itself constituted an objective claim whose veracity could be challenged or if it were just a subjective opinion meant to be taken with a grain of salt. It morphed from part of an earlier discussion between me and PR that started on a comment he made earlier about OBE in the realm of magic practice and our ongoing disagreement about what constitutes opinion status in forum discussions and it merged with your claim as an example or case in point sorta thing.
It happens.

You were not treated in rude fashion in any manner whatsoever.

Whatever.

You used one of my statements to discuss a thing that was completely different and in a completely different context without neither having the courtesy of telling me first.

If you think this polite then more good to you.

[Summerlander]

Rudolph, why bother? Some people just don't want to learn from others because they see it as a weakness. You are worth much more than that, buddy!

[Rudolph]

Where I claimed that? You are now fabricating things. I said that it is possible, not that all "initiaties" (what the word it means, then?) can do it. In fact there are a lot of people that think they are "initiated" that cannot do it.
And I repeat that those "initiates" you have met they mean nothing at all.

I fabricated nothing. I did not say you said that. I said I was told that by - I believe it was the Magister Templi, of a very respected Thelemic order. So, you say those initiates "mean nothing at all"? Hmmm, what's it up to now, so far we see that you are arrogant, presumptuous, illogical, ill-informed and now egotistical and recklessly dismissive.
Selea, either you truly are a "lucky" initiate under the tutelage of one of these mythical Exalted Secret Masters who is giving you personal training (and if so you might actually have the right to pass these judgments on the outer orders) or you are not. If not, you are just blowing a lot of hot air and trash talking the outer orders for whatever reason suits you. But if you are one of these blessed few Chosen Ones fortunate enough to receive personal instruction, you are here and now demonstrating what a total failure their methods can be. Any way you slice it, it doesn't look good for you.

Then "remote viewing" is a part of exploring the astral planes. There are some orders (as the SOL now, after the death of Butler) who prefers to don't use a full conscious transfer of consciousness to do what they have to do, and the "teachings" on that are only later and only if the students want. Sometimes people neither try because for what they want to do it is not either needed.

So what? Of course RV is part of the astral planes, duh. Just more irrelevant obfuscation on your part. And yeah, I remember talking to some of those initiates who asked "so Rudy, explain again how it is you get OBE?... er, I mean... ya know if I ever *want* to give that sort of thing a try... maybe I'll give that a shot some day...." Hahahaha, yeah right! -- the whole time his aura is shot through with green bolts of ENVY!  

For other orders it is different because they use the "planes" in a different manner, so full conscious transfer is needed. The A.'.A.'. is one of them. It also depends on what a magical order wants to accomplish.

Hehheh... you definitely got the shore story down. But Selea, I have already pointed this out for you, what these esoteric orders might really want is totally irrelevant. I asked you to back up your claim that the Body of Light method was a thousand times better. To reply with endless circumlocution about what some irrelevant magick club 'really' wants has nothing to do with it. Just answer the question. But then, at this point I am wondering whether you know the difference between a 'reply' and an 'answer'. People who know the answer will usually respond with the answer. But those who do not know but want to pretend that they know will reply to a word in the sentence of a question and insist they gave an answer. Either they do not know the difference between a reply and an answer or they are purposely deceptive in their response.

But a thing it is sure: a magical order primary function is to learn the control of the astral plane. So if the "orders" you have been and people you have met cannot do it it means that they have learned nothing.

Again, it does not mean that at all. More false logic. And if a magical order's primary function is to learn the control of the astral plane I would not bother wasting my time with such an unimaginative bunch of underachievers.

...they could just look around and try the many other methods you find in the net, included the very easy to adopt sleep ones.

Oh, so now you admit that the Raduga methods are very easy... I thought you said the BoL was a thousand times better than other methods.    Now you say the sleep methods are 'very easy'...
... which is it?

And then you still insist on bringing up these "initiates" as proof of something. First who are these "initiates" and on what "order" they are? There's in that "order" someone that teaches that technique directly, in person? How they do it?

Again you err. I did not insist and I did not present those accounts as "proof". I merely recounted my personal experience among them. These orders are exceptionally secretive. I suspect one reason is to cover the high failure rate among their members. But I admit that is pure speculation at this point. There are good reasons as well.

First you insist that those "initiates" know nothing but then you insist that what they told you it's how things must be because it is how you want them to be. You should make-up your mind a little.

Again you put words in my mouth. I did not insist on any such thing. One way for a failure to feign success is to put false words into the mouth of someone they wish to discredit and then disagree with and disprove something they never said. Yes, I should make up my mind at this point... I conclude at this point that you are totally full of not just yourself but stuff and nonsense as well. Unlike you, I base this on what you have actually said and I have quoted you accurately throughout the course of this discourse. You at least try to quote me -- I give you credit for that. But then you go off on a reply that has nothing to do with the words in the quoted piece.
!?

General people that tries do it without knowing how it works do it as a phasing method, but that's NOT how it works. If you do it that way you just lose time. It can work the same after a while, but there are many better alternatives.

Ohhh? And what alternatives are those?... and how do you know they are better?

Naturally you can either believe that what I'm telling you it is not true. It's perfectly fine, but don't pretend that what those people told you must be the truth instead, just because you want it to be.

I don't believe anyone who makes unsubstantiated claims that are inconsistent with my broad and mature experience. But I can be persuaded. Just put your evidence where your mouth is. I readily admit that I have plenty to learn and I would love to learn from someone with valid, practical knowledge in these matters. But I can be a little short on patience with blowhards and phony pretenders.

Either Crowley said this (if you want to have a "quote" as if that would mean anything):
"The experiment is an easy one; with two pupils only (of some dozens) I have failed, and that completely; with the others only a first experiment is needed."

Well, good for Crowley then. But he is dead and likely no one reading this now was ever taught by the man -- so what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

This is how the method works and how it must be teached and the way it must be adopted. It is a trick. At the time of Crowley with some people it could fail for the way the trick works and the knowledge of the times in those matters this could happen....

ok then, so if Crowley or Bennet were the teacher and we could transport ourselves back to AD1913 or so this method, or "trick" might actually work?

But I suppose either Crowley did made it up and those "initiates" know better, isn't it? Belive what you want, I don't care. I would only like you to be fair therein.

No one has suggested that Crowley made it up. Why would you suppose that? (right off the bat like that?... yours was the man's first mention here... why don't you ask first?)
I am probably more fair than most.

Then what does have "success" rate or either practicality for beginners who knows nothing about it to do with this it is beyond me. Have I ever only once said that the BoL is "superior" on these points? It doesn't seem to me, and in fact I NEVER said it (I said the contrary, in fact). Why you continuosly fabricate things I never said just to try to have a point on something? And then you either try to contradict it as if I was the one saying it. Is this a common behaviour you and others like you have?

Ahh... so here you reveal yourself as so hugely deceptive -- your claim is tantamount to a lie. I quoted you EXACTLY as claiming the BoL was "a thousand times better" and asked you to back it up.

I also paraphrased it as a claim to superiority which it obviously was as part of a separate thread and discussion. I did NOT attriubute that particular choice of words to you personally. What a giant deceiver you are!! For you to pull this line egregious BS out of your sphincter and try to play this game with me you write your own name in the Great Book of Deception Hall of Shame.

Get thee behind me Selea.

And so now they were "casual conversations"? It seemed to me all another thing, in fact:

"If you spend enough time among them and just get to where you can comfortably chat about this and that, occasional comments will drop that reveal just how little progress most of these serious, hardcore would be Magicians are truly making."

"But I spent some time among them and after much circumlocution..."

There's nothing about "casual conversations" in there, it implied all the contrary, in fact.

HAHAHHAHAHAAAAA

Since WHEN! does "comfortably chat" NOT... I repeat NOT qualify as "casual conversations" !!!

What a giant Deceiver you are!

So, you are the type who would twist even the simplest words to turn them completely around!... yeech! Selea... your horns are showing plainly now. Did you think you had half a chance to get away with such blatant abuse of the language?!

[Xanth]

Holy crap... the ego in this thread is WAAAAAAAY out of control.

You guys need to learn some humility.