OOBEs and Lucid Dreams - Are they the same?

[Summerlander]

I am interested in seeing what most Astral Pulse members think about this.  In my opinion, I have used the same method (using a pre-nap/sleep as a primer before induction) to experience that which I call:

Mode 1 OOBEs - Where environments appear to match the objective world and no anomalies are spotted.  This would be a more advanced version of remote viewing because you experience the sensation of being out of body

and...

Mode 2 OOBEs - Where the environments can display structural anomalies, where reality can outdo the physical one in appearance, and also where things can turn entropic. I consider DILDs and WILDs to be included in this category too.  Again, you can also experience separation here or, in the case of DILDs, you suddenly realise that you are not laying in bed (at least your perception tells you so).

For more distinctions between the two:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/how_to_have_an_out_of_body_experience_composed_by_summerlander-t34339.0.html

In BOTH, you may experience various degrees of focus.  They can either be fuzzy or crystal clear.  Neither concretely prove that one really leaves the physical body or that there is a separation.  I consider them to be the same in that they are two sides of the same coin, and, possibly, expressions of the right and left brain hemispheres.  But the entrance is the same whatever method you use.  I call it the Phase state.

Some people don't see any distinctions and the "Modes" above don't mean anything to them.  Some might even have accepted it once but decided to make such view redundant and argue that, even my belief system is clouding my judgement and making me perceive two types of experience where there is none.  After all, considering the nature of the metaphysical realm, anything can pretty much be created there (and usually from belief and expectation).  It could all happen in the same state of consciousness where the environments that manifest can closely match the waking world or be completely alien in appearance.  We could also be manifesting belief constructs deeply lodged in the subconscious mind.

In the end it could all be the same.  Just the Phase...where our imagination comes to life and, apparently, the possibility of telepathy could present itself.  It could just be a trip to the realm of thoughts which could be translated by the brain as though it is some sort of physical reality.

VOTE and post your opinions!!!  Try not to be biased by what your favourite author might have written to get people excited and make his dough.  Post and vote from experience only!  What do your experience and instincts tell you?

Thank you!

[personalreality]

I said absolutely, but I say absolutely not at the same time.

It's not necessarily a different place, perhaps just a different way of perceiving than we are used too.

And therein lies the real answer to your question and the retort to your model.

[NoY]

Another thread asking if LD are OBE 

[Xanth]

I like to think the keyword in the question is "entrance".

And the answer is... if you can get there, who cares how you get there. 

Honestly, I'm not sure we need another thread of this nature.

[Summerlander]

Another thread asking if LD are OBE 

Actually, no.  This is not "another one".  This is the only one on the Welcome to Dreams page.  The other "LDs vs OOBEs" threads (by Pauli2) were not "asking"...they were "affirming".  And this is a poll.  My thread is fairer and you are all welcome to express your opinions without arguments.

@ personalreality:

Thank you for your input.  It is a very mature answer.  

[Ssergiu]

Dreams = in a box, unconscious you're in the box
LDs = in a box, conscious about the box
OOBEs = out of the box!

But in a way, the box exists outside the box! Sooo... Hmmm...

[Pauli2]

The question and the possible alternative answers are convoluted.

[Summerlander]

How so?  Everyone else understood,  Pauli2.  The top one means you think both OOBEs and LDs are the same state, or entrances into the same realm.  The last answer disagrees with this and states that they are completely different.  what's in between marks a spectrum.  You decide.

Dreams = in a box, unconscious you're in the box
LDs = in a box, conscious about the box
OOBEs = out of the box!

But in a way, the box exists outside the box! Sooo... Hmmm...

Great answer.  Perhaps there is no box? 

[personalreality]

I pretty much said the same thing as pauli and you bestowed the honor of maturity on my response.  lol.

It's all about presentation guys.  Respect begets respect.  lol!!

[Ssergiu]

Great answer.  Perhaps there is no box? 

The box is a lie! Actually a hallucination in a way... Hmmm 

[Summerlander]

I pretty much said the same thing as pauli and you bestowed the honor of maturity on my response.  lol.

It's all about presentation guys.  Respect begets respect.  lol!!

From what I understood, PR, you said that you think the experiences are the same, just different ways of perceiving - which pretty much agrees with how I perceive it and seems to reinforce the theory that the two brain hemispheres could come into play...

I know for a fact that Pauli2 opposes this and he claims that they are projections to two different places.  where have you been in the last few days?

The box is a lie! Actually a hallucination in a way... Hmmm  

More likely,  the box is real and all happens inside it...until you look inside and the infinite collapses into the finite.  And the cat is dead, not alive!  

[personalreality]

I know for a fact that Pauli2 opposes this and he claims that they are projections to two different places.  where have you been in the last few days?

i'm just fuxin with you.

and it's not the last few days, it's always.  but pauli is entitled to the opinion that his experience affords him, just like you or i.

[Summerlander]

Is he?  He may be entitled to his own opinion in general but I am not too sure about his opinion here.  The opinions here have to come strictly from experience.  He tends to quote too many authors for my liking.  It must be from experience otherwise your vote here means zilch.

Capisce?  

[Volgerle]

The problem here lies in definitions. Some people have different definitions of what an OBE is and encompasses. Summerlander, you deliver a definition with mode1/2 and "the phase", but it's your own (or rather leaned on Radruga's models?), not used by others. So many people who have different definitons or use categories differently might not be able to relate to it. Don't get me wrong, I actually like your model, but it is actually one way (belief?) of looking at things only.

As to the question: normally I'd go for LD=OBE, but as said, that depends then on "my" definition of them, they might not be exactly what is presented here by your post or Radruga's teachings. So it is still difficult to vote for me. (I'm on the fence and thus have not yet cast a vote).

Well, actually I don't have a definition for a Lucid Dream anymore, if I think right about it. I just differentiate between the non-lucid/dream state and the lucid state. So it is all about the "state continuum" (that might indeed come near to your described "phase" in a way).

And both, for me, are real. They are "realties" to be experienced within one super-reality, so to speak. Some still argue that dreams are "less real" which I decidedly oppose all the time. I even take more or less the occultist view now, that poses that dreams are just filtered-down (and thus scrambled) memories of experiences in higher states of our multidimensional (higher) self, which we mostly cannot really understand due to their complexity.

I think, not just from other authors' but also from my own experiences now, that in dreams/non-lucid state you are nearer to your sub- or superconscious (which esotericists call Higher or Monroe called Total Self / I-there). My dreams tell me the same story, I have the impression now that I even get better insights about (or from?) my (higher) self from dreaming.

Then there is varying degrees of lucidity in-between when you flicker between lucid and non-lucid. So there is no clear-cut boundary.

On the other side of the continuum, the complete lucid/self-conscious analytical state (which I call lucidventure when not experienced in betawaves-brainstate / the 'physical') is more externally geared, away from your Higher Self / subconscious. Your conscious / lucid incarnated ego-self is then in full control and experiences the (physical, astral or whatever) environment, collects data from there and ... well ... lives and learns, all for the benefit of the Higher Self.

So, dreams and lucidventures (OBEs if you like) are in the same continuum of consciousness, you just change focus and state on this wide-ranging continuum, voluntarily or involuntarily. So yes, dreams and lucidventures they are actually THE SAME. A 'lucid dream', however, does not fit into this model for me anymore. For me there are either dream adventures or lucidventures / lucadventures.  

Both are valid and valuable experiences for me because either way can lead to precious insights and even validations of some sort. I had now certain validations as pre-cogs and clairvoyant insights in "normal" dreams, but also a kind of telepathic manifestation and ensuing validation from a lucadventure ("OBE / AP" or I guess you'd call it Mode2 due to the telepathic thing). Therefore I do not believe from my experiences (and that's what you asked for: own experiences) that one side (state/focus) of the same thing (continuum) is "better" or "more real" than the other.

[personalreality]

duly noted summer.

[Summerlander]

Better be.

[ether2]

the answer to the topic title is clearly not the same, obviously...

as i'm sure those on their journey/developement/awakening this will become clear to them...

not all is as it seems...

i would have thought you would know this man ...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

Actually, ether... no, not "obviously".  Sorry, but you've entirely missed the point from the last THREE threads on this subject.

[ether2]

Actually, ether... no, not "obviously".  Sorry, but you've entirely missed the point from the last THREE threads on this subject.

hay, thanx for the reply, good name change man, Xanth/Ryan same to me man ...

actually i said:

"the answer to the topic title is clearly not the same, obviously..."

so your wrong, again ...

good luck

love all

[Summerlander]

It's Saturday, 16th July 2011, 1.30 pm, and the "My experience seems to indicate so" (more in favour of the opinion that OOBEs and Lucid Dreams are the same) is winning at 33.3%.

[Astral316]

My experiences lead me to believe that dreams and OBEs are nothing more than reference markers on a spectrum of awareness in the non-physical. Lucidity is a secondary characteristic. Where one falls on the awareness spectrum in combination with their lucidity (or lack thereof) dictates the possible nature of the experience.

[Selea]

Mode 1 OOBEs - Where environments appear to match the objective world and no anomalies are spotted.  This would be a more advanced version of remote viewing because you experience the sensation of being out of body

and...

Mode 2 OOBEs - Where the environments can display structural anomalies, where reality can outdo the physical one in appearance, and also where things can turn entropic. I consider DILDs and WILDs to be included in this category too.  Again, you can also experience separation here or, in the case of DILDs, you suddenly realise that you are not laying in bed (at least your perception tells you so).

I still don't get why you think the differnence from "LDs" and "OBEs" should be what you call "Mode 1" or "Mode 2". What makes you think so?

If I would give explain it in my terms the difference is that in a LDs you are in Yetzirah of Assiah, while in OBEs you are in Yetzirah (and in the case of what you call "Mode 1", in Assiah or Yetzirah). It is the "plane" that's different, not the "subplane" (or what you call "Mode").

But mine was a rethoric question, in reality. It was just meant to let you notice that the approach to the experience has no term at all in the terminology you (and others, as Raduga) uses because probably thought as having no impact, while, on the contrary, on my experience (and not only mine) the approach is what changes the structure of the experience (i.e. the "plane"), while where you "go", what you call "Mode", it is just a direction, and not the structure itself (that's the most important part, and the difference in what we are talking about here).

Like referring to a street in a city. You care not about the city, thinking it irrelevant, while caring only for the street. Problem is that the street can be there also in other cities.

[Summerlander]

I still don't get why you think the differnence from "LDs" and "OBEs" should be what you call "Mode 1" or "Mode 2". What makes you think so?

If I would give explain it in my terms the difference is that in a LDs you are in Yetzirah of Assiah, while in OBEs you are in Yetzirah (and in the case of what you call "Mode 1", in Assiah or Yetzirah). It is the "plane" that's different, not the "subplane" (or what you call "Mode").

LOL!  

Selea...first of all, you have massively misunderstood my post and I think you should re-read it.  I don't say it should be and besides I never said Mode 1 = OOBE and Mode 2 = Lucid Dream.  This is what you never seem to be able to get.  I am saying that they are all OOBEs.  In case you haven't noticed there is usually a word in front of the type of mode:

Mode 1 OOBE
Mode 2 OOBE

I think the only one who hasn't understood this so far is you.  Secondly, what you say is your terms aren't really, are they? The terms you just posted are Kabbalistic terms, not yours, and I care not to address them because they are rooted in Judaism and I despise religion altogether. You have to give your opinion based on your EXPERIENCE, not religious belief or esoteric teaching.

On the meaning of Modes...whoever said I was talking about "planes" and "subplanes"?  Whoever said they were places or regions or zones?  The Modes I talk about have more to do with perception than anything else, and, as I've said to you before, I never claim to know for sure that separation from the body really occurs.  You are talking to me about something which is so theoretical (such as planes and subplanes) while I have repeatedly mentioned the possibility that Modes might have more to do with the activity in the brain hemispheres according to experiments performed on split-brain subjects.

On the approach to the experience that you talk about.  Of course it changes what you call "plane"!!! Erm...duh!  Belief and expectation come into play...

In case you haven't noticed, the term Phase is very pragmatic.  There is no real evidence that OOBEs and Lucid Dreams are not the same phenomenon.  But that is not what was intended with this thread and I think you missed the whole point.  This thread is for statistical purposes and an opportunity for people to voice their opinions, not oppose and ridicule the opinions of others to reinforce their beliefs as the absolute truth.

As for your street and city analogy, it made no sense whatsoever, it looks misplaced and it is uncalled for here.  You tend to speak as though you know exactly what one encounters upon entering the Phase.  It's amazing...

By the way...what did you vote for?  If you haven't, do it because I will be locking the poll pretty soon.  And next time, please ask decent questions and make sure you have read my posts properly.

My experiences lead me to believe that dreams and OBEs are nothing more than reference markers on a spectrum of awareness in the non-physical. Lucidity is a secondary characteristic. Where one falls on the awareness spectrum in combination with their lucidity (or lack thereof) dictates the possible nature of the experience.

Now this is a more logical way of looking at things...and I can tell this is definitely from experience.  

[blis]

My experiences indicate that they are different.Not radically different, but different.

When in the RTZ I notice if I drift into a dream environment. I know the feel of the RTZ and notice when that feel is replaced with a dream feel. So I cant accept that LD's are the same as etheric projections.

If you want to say they're the same as astral projections though, I'm fine with that. It's too hard to draw a line location-wise.

But personally I dont reach for my AP journal unless the place's energy felt different to that of my dream environment. I dont get a WOW factor from the energy in my lucid dreams. I do from what I consider astral locations. Also, I dont sense any foreign energy from dream charcters and I definately do from "real people".

To me, saying all these things are the same is like saying SG-1 is the same as the Simpsons. They're both TV shows so I can see where you're coming from but I put them in different categories.

[Xanth]

It's all subjective. 

I simply don't understand how this isn't understood...