Trance-related enigma

[fredhedd]

you say rather than entering into trance.  do you mean that you would rather enter into a trance slowly?  after your twenty minutes of letting your body relax what kind of state do you feel that you are in?  do you feel that you are in a trance after those twenty minutes? because twenty minutes or relaxation is normal in the time it takes to reach a nice trance state.

what's the most relaxed you have ever been while doing this?

what is it that you are concentrating or focusing on that brings you out of your relaxation?  usually any thoughts about the body will tend to bring you back towards the physical.  do you notice any physical movement when you start to concentrate?  the slightest bit will bring you out of trance.  for a few months i would break my trance by concentrating too hard and moving parts of my body.  i wasn't aware of it at the time and it took some careful observation to realize what was going on.

everyone is different here in what helps them trigger the projection reflex.  have you started doing NEW yet?  usualy if i am in trance and start raising as much energy as i can into my sub-naval storage area, i can start to feel some vibrations and a little seperation.

have you read ad or the treatises yet?  

if you think going deeper into your relaxation will help then what's stopping you from doing so?  do you fall asleep?

[Leviiathan]

Fredhedd:

Man, thanks for answering. I'll try and clear up some things so that you can give me some advice.

Yes I've read the treastie. Yes I've reviewed Bob Peterson's work. Yes, I've seen faqs online. I've been in an ongoing meditation process for the last 7 months, but for the last 5 - 6 years I've fallen in and out of practice.

Things were different before I started up again 7 months ago, however.

Body State
It's not the same every time. I lay down, with a bedsheet over me. I find that entering an immediate stage of trance isn't working (yet) (through falling exercies). I usually drift, while keeping my head clear of activity (for the most part) and simply feeling myself relaxing.

I try and do this when I'm in a relaxed state, though I haven't mastered a full body relaxation exercise. The tensing exercises prior to meditation aren't helpful. I attempted to develop a method to stimulate my body into relaxation through mental hand brushes, but that has been effective yet. I was working on it for about 2 or so months and then stopped.

I lay down, keep a clear head and drift, or try and aid my body in relaxation. By the time I reach that deep relaxed state, I'm not focusing on anything around me, though I am still completely aware of everything going on around me (my focus just isn't on it).

I can get to a point where I feel as heavy as lead. My mental state is comparable to having been given a sedative, where my senses aren't very acute. Every have a morning where you wake up and you're half-awake? I can bring myself to a half-awake state.

When I meditate, my number one objective is to bring my body down to as far as it will go. I get to a point where I realize that I'm not making any more progress. Then I attempt to project, which always ends in failure. When I try to project, it feels like I'm no longer in a deeply relaxed state, but a light state of relaxation.

Most of the time, my body doesn't get heavy as a brick. It simply becomes numb. I can't feel most of it. I'm still aware of it though.

- - - -

Last night, my body somehow fell into an ideal state of relaxation, where I felt very, very heavy. I then decided to climb Rope. I decided to use a method, which had worked for me previously (when I had tried to induce a trance).

When I breath in, I reach out and I feel the pull. When I breath out, I hold that feeling until I breath in again. When I breath in, I continue, only I'm adding on to that feeling. The feeling becomes more intense. This must be the pressure that is talked about.

I guess you don't dwell on it. I've managed to overcome some problems I experienced months ago (like an odd rope slip). Right now, I simply do is versus trying to understand how I'm doing it. One more thing I'm trying to work on is my focus. I find that as long as I can stay focused (properly), I can continue with my method successfully.

Last night, the symptoms began to pop up. Unfortunately, I dwell on them, even if the progress keeps up. When I realize that I'm dwelling on them, I try to ignore them. It's actually unbelievably hard. That's probably why I'm not projecting. I'm dwelling on the doubt while trying to be hopeful and positive. I'm dwelling on the symptoms that I'm getting. I'm dwelling on trying to get them back. I don't think thoughts. I simply focus on those issues, hence dwell.

The first symptom I remember was the throbbing/pulsing in my shoulders, as if there were chakra centers there. I'd breath in, and the pulsing would start. THe pulsing would then die down until I breathed in again (i.e. like an energy center pumping energy to every breath I took in).

I felt like I was wavering back and forth. This was odd. I felt the motion of waving, but I did not feel myself actually wave. I feel this waving and feel myself in the bed. To feel the act of being stationary versus the act of feeling motion is puzzling for me. Naturally, I treat it as a symptom. I guess that means that my focus is simply on my body.

Beyond that, it felt like my focus was off my body, like I was. . . rising out (my awareness). It didn't feel like I was rising out or anything. It's hard to explain. I can't remember it clearly. I took this as a symptom that I was beginning to separate, regardless of the fact that there were no vibrations or buzzing.

. . . then I ended up stopping. Some of my muscles were tense (arms, legs, lower back). Not too tense. I was also a bit clammy.

I've been practicing N.E.W. lately also. I find that there's nothing in the guide (or at least in the 5 - 6 pages I've downloaded) that concerns the Chakra meditation that was outlined in the treastie. So far, I have yet to experience the benefits of using N.E.W. I'm thinking that the N.E.W. techniques (wrapping, circling methods, for example) could be applied to chakra stimulation methods. Perhaps doing those could improve the development of my energy body over the treastie methods.


Note: Yeah, yeah. Amid my gradual advancing, I'm still finding myself at Step 1. I can hear Frank mumbling under his breath, "Novice", with a smug smirk. Same with you, if you're at his level.

I can see where the philosophy of "unlearning" comes in (i.e. in the ways that I've un-noticably improved upon with my methods for focus).

[fredhedd]

you shouldn't worry about how long it takes you to get into trance.  just getting in should be your concern.  after you've been in a few times for a nice amount of time you will become more familiar w/ it.  after that all you'll really have to do is think about what you felt then, remembering as much as you can.  this may be esaier to enter trance than using the falling sensations.  

when you do enter trance, do you feel it throughout your entire body?

if i'm understanding your posts correctly, you can enter a decent enough trance state but you lose it when you try and project.  i would say that you are either unknowingly slightly tensing up then, or you are concentrating on your body more then which is bringing your awareness back to it.  either of those will lessen your trance.

a good tek to try is robert's point shift.  there may be something in the treatise about it.  if not i know for sure it's in ad.  you didn't mention wether or not you read astral dynamics yet.  the point shift tek deals w/ picking a point outside of your body and shifting and holding your awareness there.  if you are laying down, a good place to shift your awareness to would be the place in your room that you are trying to project to, ie. three feet above you.  try to imagine as hard as you can, believe even  that you are actually hovering three feet above your bed.  i've gotten some incredible projection symptoms from this tek the first time i used it.  

this tek may be one of the harder ones to learn but it's one of the most effective.  it should keep more awareness away from your body.  

note: frank is definetly not mumbling novice under his breath.    he's had it harder than most of us starting out w/ this stuff.  i dont remember how many years he has been doing this but most of the beginning for him was done w/out the use of the internet or these awesome books we have now.  he has had more than his fair share of trial and error.  it's probably why he's been able to help so many of us.  

practice, practice, practice

[Tom]

Meditation requires an object that is observed with the full faculties of mind and body. It is not about going into a trance. It is not an attempt to relax. Lying down to meditate is okay if you have a back injury or other sort of medical reason why sitting up is not an option. When you are sitting up in a correct meditation posture of some sort the process of unblocking the energy begins automatically. Placing your awareness in your meditation object causes your energy to flow into it and gradually the amount of energy increases as it is pulled away from other activities like the internal dialogue. It is also taken away from sustaining your posture, which is why estalishing the posture well in the beginning is important. It can then be held without effort, ideally. Energy is also drained away from places where tensions exist and this is why the relaxation occurs. This is not a trance state, however.

There are times when a trance state is appropriate, and one of them is when doing rope. A horizontal position is fine for this. Doing rope from the beginning induces a trance, raises energy, and activates the chakras all by itself. There is no need to precede it with anything. Just create a strong intention to do rope and start doing it.

[Leviiathan]

Fredhedd: I think the problem is that my focus too much on my physical body. Following by Robert's ideas of trance in the beginning, my expectations of it were:

1) Heaviness
2) Falling sensations
3) Boxed in
4) 3d blackness.

I've experienced all of these things on the rarest of rare occassions together, as a single experience. Usually when I try to emulate this same state, I only aquire one or two of these things. I can gain the sensation of falling without feeling heavy at all. I've had all three of them, without the falling sensation as well at other times.

But here on the forum, the definition of trance (and levels of consciousness) has become all too obscured for me. From the mouths of Frank, Tom, and others, I can't really saw I truly understand what trance is at all.

All these conflicting ideas creating a mess of thought.

- - -

I haven't read the book Astral dynamics (I have no idea how close the treastie is to the book).

In the last two days, when I went to lay down, my body seemed to fall into an immediate state of deep relaxation, which was unusual. There was even a sense of pressure.

One thing that bothers my attention is that as my body comes to become more and more relaxed, there's this growing sense of pressure that begins to build up. Not a good distraction.

Awareness shifting seems like a good method. I've played around with it, but haven't adapted my methods to try and use this as a means of projecting. Fred, can you give me some more information about doing this? I could try and practice this, but based on past experience, I think a bit more guidance on elements of this method could help me.

Tom: I've never meditated sitting up because the thought of it comes across as rather uncomfortable for me. I'm thinking that my body would slouch over (I've sat in a chair and my head has ended up tilting back or falling over).

I've always layed down because it was most comfortable for me. If I had a very comfortable 300 dollar recliner I could sit in, with good back support, I would.

[Leviiathan]

Actually, last night, it got to a point where I started to drift off unawaringly, when suddenly, a popping or snapping sound jolted my awareness back into gear. I'm not sure if I felt it too or not. Not sure what it was a signal off. I can't remember it clearly.

[fredhedd]

being observant is a really good way to be.  thinking too much about this stuff though is going to be counter-productive.  i could sit here and give you pages of detailed info but it's not going to help as much as just settling into trance and experimenting.  if you are serious about projecting you should buy astral dynamics.  read it a few times.  the book is huge and worth the money.  i'm not trying to brush you off, i like helping people on here.  

all of those sensations you described are what should tell you you are in trance.  it should be fairly obvious when you are in it.  spend some time there.  move energy around.  play w/ your thoughts.  

the point shift method: your awareness is usually on your body.  if you are watching tv it's on there.  before you lay down to do your trance work take a look around your room.  

imagine what it would be like if you were actually going to be hovering above your bed three feet.  look at the walls and the ceiling.  imagine what it would feel like to be that much closer the top of the house and that much further away from the floor.  every aspect that you can think of.

when you are comfortable w/ the level of trance you are in, recall all of those memories and try and imagine as best you can that you are already projected and are in that same spot. try and feel what it would be like knowing that your physical body was three feet below you.  

during normal projection there is  strong pulling sensation from your physical body.  it's always pulling your astral body back into it.  this continues thoughout the projection process and until you are about fifteen to twenty feet away from your physical body.  try and imagine that feeling of tugging that your physical body would be doing at that moment and how much effort it will take to just stay hovering there.  you want to shift your awareness to that spot.  

just lying down and doing point shift will take you right into trance and right out of your body if done correctly.  it may be the most effective tek yet.

[Leviiathan]

The more I attempt to fall into trance, the more pressure I experience in areas of my body.

The pressure just makes me feel anxious. I want to stop because it's pretty uncomfortable. I also feel like I want to get up and move, so in the mornings, I'm definitely never in a state to project.

. . . and then there's that pressure. It's really uncomfortable.

When I fell out of a dream today, I found myself in a spot like this. I've been doing all sorts of experimentations, and I know very clear the difference between dream states and emulative dream states.

During dreams, everything's vivid and clear, and it's like being in a movie. Do you play videogames (console rpgs?) where you control a 3d character from a certain camera angle? As you move that character, the camera angle may pan or follow that character. That's how dreams work for me.

The RPG analogy is very interesting because I can use terms (NPCS) to describe every single character in there, other than the one my focus is following. Whenever I interact with an NPC, they often give lines that one would expect form a non-player character. (i.e. "Oh, I see. Wow, that's great!").

One humourous situation I remember was waking up from a dream within a dream. My brother was in my room. I started asking him questions about my dream, and he was being completely agreeable! Everything is so fake in dreams, right down to the very backdrops you sit through. Locations feel boxed in and limited in some way.

. . . somehow, there was a slow transition between a half-awake eyes-closed state, and the dream state. I contemplated a bit and it occured to me I could maybe fall back into the dream by trying to re-enact the dream through daydreams. Sadly, the it's not the same. The color isn't there, and it feels so . . . flat. There's not even any detail. I don't even feel part of the daydream.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. I'm interested in hearing how one can turn an emulated dream into an actual dream. . . because I sure can't at this point! lol

I'd also like to hear some advice / thoughts on the pressure I gave some explanation on.

I'll try more at the point shift again tonight.

As for AD, the library said it would take up to three months to get it transfered (and that was . . . I don't know. . . months ago) lol. I should be getting it soon hopefully. I'm hoping it will help me a lot more than the treastie ever did (not really).

[fredhedd]

i don't understand what you mean about your dreams.  explain more please.

the pressure you feel is normal.  you will most likely start to like it.  spend as much time in that state as possible and get familar w/ it.  you'll read all about it when you get your book.  

did you say that you got your library to transfer it for you?  you may be cking it out every month.  

[Mirador]

Leviathan,

You are obviously trying to hard, you're 'thinking' too much, You're not in a race with time, or going to get any medals for your effort, so lighten up! Forget about 'focus', put some rythem into it all, ritual...

[Leviiathan]

I'm seven months into my meditation practices.

Rather than simply entering a trance, I find it most comfortable to let my body relax. It takes roughly 20 minutes to get to a point where my mind and body are both deeply relaxed.

The problem is that when I begin to concentrate or focus, I seem to fall out of this state.

How then, do I attempt to position focus outside of my body (e.g. Rope) if it throws me back to step 1?

I think that being deeply relaxed is not enough. I need to go deeper somehow. I'm working on that right now, but I need advice in maintaining the status of feeling like a lead bucket when attempting to focus or separate.