Clearing the mind

[Tom]

It is impossible so don't do it. Mental silence and thinking are sides of the same coin. Supress thinking and you will weaken the coin, the power of your mind. A meditation that was in a book I read is to visualize your thoughts as separate from you, as leaves floating down a stream. You are sitting next to the stream and it is a nice day out. There are thoughts / leaves floating down the stream, but they are separate from you and they are not important. Just don't jump in to grab at the leaves and drown in the stream. That last remark was a joke.

[goingslow]

One method I found that works for me when I want to shut out thoughts is I focus my awareness in the back of my head.  I find myself doing this often during the day when I suddenly have negative thoughts.  It works for me.  

How good are you at body awareness?  You might try this.. for some reason it just clears my mind from thoughts.  It might be considered cheating though since its easier than forcing the thoughts out.

[Fat_Turkey]

I'm actually pretty good at body awareness, now that you asked. I just realised I don't need to scratch or look at my body and can shift it around almost anywhere now with ease. Sometimes I focused body awareness on the back of my brain/brain stem and the energy movement made my head feel funny. Not sure if that was good for me tho []

Thanks for the help, and I just found a site on meditation that gives some good advice too!

Later
-FT

[Athios]

By the way, what is the site that you found helpful?
Could you post the link?  []

Anyway, the way I do it is quite similar to what Tom described, except I don't use any imagery. I remember it was very hard especially when I started out, stuff just comes into your head, especially when you don't them to!  []
But just discard all the thoughts that are pointless. Sometimes you might have a thought that resurfaces after you push it away (e.g. something important you have to do tomorrow), in that case, just spend some time to quickly deal with the issue/make a decision, then you can move on.

Anyway, I've heard of two ways that can help you cut down on the amount of mental junk in your surface mind. One was the way mentioned in Astral Dynamics, whenever a thought comes up, just cut it off halfway (or earlier). Eventually you'll be able to sense them, and block off the thoughts before they form in your mind. (No, I'm not at that stage yet [|)] )
Another way I read from some post on this forum. You just insert a deliberate pause between every thought you get. Then you gradually increase the length of this pause, until you are no longer thinking of anything.

Hope that helps.

[Fat_Turkey]

Here's the link:
http://www.meditationcenter.com

hope it helps [|)]

Later
-FT

[Athios]

Thanks for the link!  []

Btw, have you looked at this thread?
http://www.astraldynamics.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3879&whichpage=1

[panabelle]

Here's something I posted on another thread that's basically the same thing:

"What works for me to shut up my hyperactive little kid of a conscious mind is to put everything on hold and feel like I'm waiting for a noise or something to come. You know how you see lightning, then wait for the thunder? During that time, you aren't really thinking of anything, just being alert and waiting. (Although sometimes I end up thinking of thunderstorms.)"

It's the only thing that works for me.

[Squeek]

One good way is to flood your mind with thoughts.  The object here is to make it work so hard that it has to take a "break".  This is when you attack!  Muahahahaa.

~Squeek

[jilola]

I have to disagree with Tom. Clearing the mind is possible but very difficult to do if you're one of the people who are used to thinking  with words (most of us)
What helped me enormously(sp?) is the proximity of nature. It's so much easier to stop the chatter when you're viewing a stream, some trees or birds, whatever. After being able to remaing in a calm meditative state while viewing it gradually becomes easier to do so while meditating. Trying to go cold turkey is  doomed to failure.
Start by choosing a scene or an idea (==state) that fills you with serenity/safety/calmness and allow thought related to what you feel surface. Don't suppress other thoughts, just view them as part of the whatever the state  is you chose. You'll find that sooon the thoughts that emerge are more and more related to the state. NOw, since the thoughts are of serenity/safety/calmness you'll find it much easier to just feel the thoughts instead of voicing them in your mind. Once you get to feeling thoughts instewad of voicing it's but a short step to suspend even te feeling and just be.

As for mental words and thinking being one and the same I again disagree. Well, somewhat anyhoo. What you gain from mental silence is enhanced intuitive thinking. Besides, thinking in words is only one way of thinking. Imagery works fine on some cases, sounds and feelings in others. Bbut to be able to utilize these types of mental activities one needs to kill the chatter.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

Jilola, how exactly are we disagreeing on this?

What I said was that mental silence and thinking were not separate, but that instead they have a common foundation. If you find what supports both mental silence and thinking then you do not have to attack thinking to gain silence.

[jilola]

Umm, perhaps I was reading too much into

quote:It is impossible so don't do it. Mental silence and thinking are sides of the same coin. Supress thinking and you will weaken the coin, the power of your mind.

I read that as to mean that a)intentional silencing of the mind is impossible and b)doing so would negate our capacity to reach ideas and/or conclusions.
I think I was disagreeing with the imposssibility of stilling the mind.
I think we do think along similar paths here after all. As you point out in your reply we don't have to attack thinking in order to achieve a still mind and in fact we shouldn't. The whole point of the exercise(sp?) is to intentionally still the mind, not blindy clobber the mind into submission.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

Some people seem to feel a need to crush thinking completely, so that even the tendency toward an internal dialogue is gone at all times. Sitting around like a stone does not express the mind's highest capacity. Instead I wanted to point out that when thoughts come they do not have to be distractions no matter how frequent or unpleasant they are. Identifying self with thinking and then judging both causes tension which leads to more of the same thinking.

[jilola]

I see that fault in my interpretation of your reply and stand corrected. We do agree.
It's important to accept the fact that thought are not a distraction any more than a noise from the outside is a distraction. Thoughts, when they arise, are us and reflect upon our current beings. Thus they are valuable in keeping a sense of perspective without which our meditation becomes adrift and an exercize(sp? in useless posturing.
Meditation, after all, is not about applying force but being like water and willow. Accept what comes and let it go.
If there is dialogue thenn there is, just don't get hung up on it.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

Exactly. But I still say it is necessary to use an object of some sort during meditation. A sequence of events is still an object. The space left by removing something is an object. The mind itself is a good choice of objects. Specific concepts can be objects, as well as single phrases or words. The faculties of the mind are gathered together more easily around a single point.

[jilola]

Of course, during the meditation one utilizes different focii to hold the consciousness but as the meditation progresses the objects become more and more abstract and eventually nothing should be an equally good object as anything else.
Actually, the definition of a "clear mind" depends upon the application or the ultimate goal one has.
In itself "clear mind" is simply a mind free of distractions outside the object of concentration or the goal.
Taken further the term becomes increasingly tenuous in trying to convey a state of mind that has no reference in our normal physical world. "Clear mind" becomes not only a focused mind but a mind rid of unnecessary thought and perception. In a manner of speaking a "still mind".
Event further along the progression is a state that has no reference as a mind, this is the "empty mind" or "no mind". This is a state that I believe is what is meant by the various term for enlightenment with all of its possibly distinctive levels. (I think there's only one)

So to forcibly deny thought is akin to trying to create a glass swan with a hammer. Be nice to your mind.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[goingslow]

Actually not thinking about anything in no way weakens the mind.  

Thats a misconception a lot of people have.  That when the mind is clear you're just not thinking.  You're actually training your mind to push away the random thoughts.  Even a simple "whats that" even if its not in words is thinking.  

Its a lot harder to clear your mind and keep it clear of thoughts than it is to just sit back and not be aware of the thousands of random thoughts that happen in your mind.
The sittin like a stone analogy made it seem kind of like an idiot who sits around not thinking about anything at all and calls it meditation.  Even a person who isn't consciously thinking about anything important has many thoughts running through their heads.  Even stuff like "that was funny" ...anything. Actually sling blade came to mind []

Im finally able to "not think about anything" and it isn't thinking of an object at all.  Its a little hard to explain but there is no object im focusing on.  You'll find if you push the internal dialog out your mind is clear of any thoughts at all.  It isnt impossible and its not shifting your focus to something else.  At this time I usually see "images" which are the only things which snap me back and I remember what i was doing.  While in a trance im not aware I was trying to be in a trance or trying to do anything.  Its that type of nothing.

[Greytraveller]

Listening to the right music is the best way to clear the mind. Ambient music, nature sounds, hearts of space or just simple drumming. Any music that creates a relaxing frame of mind and has a steady beat. For me the best music is nonvocal as words become too much of a distraction. Letting the music serve as a backdrop for quite mental respite late at night can be the perfect way to easily get into a deep hypnagogic-meditative state.[]

[Fat_Turkey]

Well after all that I'm still confused. So is it good or bad to try and silence the internal dialogue? And my question hasn't been answered about the "instructional thoughts." Those thoughts that tell the rest of the mind what to do. Is it wrong to be thinking that? So should I just acknowledge random thoughts, admit they are there and let them go? But what about the thought that admits the other thoughts? This is all too confusing and I wish you could clear things up a bit.

It's always so annoying how philosophy is spoken like a riddle

Later
-FT

[jilola]

The "instructional thought" that you refer to is actually a valid and effective tool in reaching a calm and still mind. It works, imho, a bit like a mantra in that it captures the thoughts and gives you a focus, a reference point if you will.
Only, you should not get attached and used to having the thought but eventually let them go as well.

As for any random thoughts you have the right idea. Don't fight them but allow them to fade away. If they don't use a focus, a simple mantra etc to gently push the intruding thoughts back and then gradually discard the focus.

You're quite right that this is not easy by far. We are so used to blabbering about, ourselves, what we seee, feel, smell, hear, even  the fact that we do those things and that we think about thnking about.... you get the picture.
We'va had all of our lives to practise and groove the incessant mental activity in that it isn't surprising that it takes time and enormous effort at times to get rid of the habit. It will drive you nuts but trust me, it can be done and will be worth the effort.

Stilling the mind is as much about the obvious goal of stillness and mental silence as it is about learning to be an integral part of your surroundings instead of actively observing from a separated point of view. And then there's the added bonus of learning to focus your mind and improved concentration. If you master stilling your mind it fairly simple to allow some thought or object in and concentrate on that without mental distractions.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[cyro393]

ok. here is a tech that works for me........

focus on one thing such as your breathing dont take your mind off of it. then after some time your mind will slowly slip to a trANCE STATE AS LONG AS YOU DONT GET EXITED you will stay in a no thought zone.


tell me what you think.[][8D][?][|)]

[Tom]

The problem is that we aren't all talking about the same thing. There is going into a trance, using a projection technique, and then meditation. Then there is raising energy, which should be in a basically normal state of consciousness. All of these states require a different relationship with thinking.

[jilola]

Points for Tom there. The tool and the goal should be matched.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[drastr]

Hi Fat Turkey.

When I meditate I usually use the breath as my object of focus.  However, after a rough day at work I sometimes have trouble stilling my thoughts because I'm thinking about what didn't get done, and what needs to be done tomorrow.  At these times I acknowledge my agitation and focus instead on sound.  Then, "every sound and no sound" becomes my object.  I think Pannabelle mentioned this - "put everything on hold and feel like I'm waiting for a noise or something to come".  It helps quiet my mind because sound can come from anywhere at any moment.  My cat padding by on the carpet, the furnace kicking on, the wind...etc.  If there's no sound then there is the sound of silence.  You'll find that you'll be very focused waiting for the next sound to come, and if your anything like me "listening to silence" will deepen your relaxed state.

[Tom]

There is another way of stating what I have tried to say. If you focus your efforts on what you want to avoid, that is time and energy you are not putting toward what you want to gain. Worse, that focus will increase what you are trying to avoid.

[Fat_Turkey]

Hi.

I've been trying this for several weeks now and I'm getting nowhere. I ONCE cleared my mind for approx. 3 seconds but now I can't even get close. I'm back to where I started. There are so many thoughts just flying around. I focus on "text" thoughts, and they settle down, then I notice that there are image thoughts, AND sound thoughts. And let's not forget the all so important instructional thoughts - those thoughts that are thinking about clearing my mind.

How can anybody do this kind of thing?!?!
IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Clear your mind without thinking about it...hmm okay why don't I just shoot myself and get it done that way? This is the hardest thing I've ever done since...EVER!

HELP!
-FT