A philosophical Question!

[vasspilka]

 Past month I have started my journey to the metaphysical world, I have read articles, analyzed ideas, made complex thoughts and I even tried to do an  OBE (sadly with no success).

  Over this period of time many questions have arose inside of me as, does there really exist a metaphysical realm? Is it in our heads or in a different reality? Is this different state of consciousness a different being (A soul), or is it us in just a different state of being?
   However there is one particular thought that I cant get out of my head, there is one though that messes it all up. I will try to express it and analyze it in hope you could enlighten me and we all could have a better understanding of the metaphysical.

:Prerequisites:
  Lets say there is a metaphysical realm, lets say it exist in some other dimension/reality and in thas reality exist our true self, lets say in this physical world our bodies and our brain is a vessel that helps our true self gain experiences he otherwise could not obtain, that helps our true self grow up.

 
   When did this celestial being occupy the human bodies? Was it always inside of us ? Did it always use us to gain experience? If the answer is yes,then it means we had a higher self when we where Homosapiens, it means that we had a "soul" when we where fish swimming in the prehistoric ocean, Hell!! It means we had an inner consciousness when we where just atoms of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen... Does this mean all things have souls? If yes then this laptop I am writing from has a soul as well... It has multiple parts does it have multiple souls? Is there one on the keyboard and one in the processor? Can a laptop be conscious? Can it have an OBE?... Does every atom has a soul? Or is it all just ONE SOUL for everyone if yes aren't these guides we meet in an OBE actually us? If it is all us? Can we actually gain new experiences?
   
    What is a soul, what is this higher self, this true self everyone is talking about? Is it a godlike creature? Are we a god? Do we need all these experiences to become a god?

  I could be here for Hours and hours writing about the possibilities , what "could be" but everytime I find an answer I find a flaw among it... Please! I need some enlightenment

[CFTraveler]

Past month I have started my journey to the metaphysical world, I have read articles, analyzed ideas, made complex thoughts and I even tried to do an  OBE (sadly with no success).

  Over this period of time many questions have arose inside of me as, does there really exist a metaphysical realm? Is it in our heads or in a different reality? Is this different state of consciousness a different being (A soul), or is it us in just a different state of being?
   However there is one particular thought that I cant get out of my head, there is one though that messes it all up. I will try to express it and analyze it in hope you could enlighten me and we all could have a better understanding of the metaphysical.

Hi vasspilka.  I have to say that enlightenment is something personal, and I don't think anyone can give you that.  But I can share with you what I think about this, and you see if any of it sounds right to you.

Lets say there is a metaphysical realm, lets say it exist in some other dimension/reality and in thas reality exist our true self, lets say in this physical world our bodies and our brain is a vessel that helps our true self gain experiences he otherwise could not obtain, that helps our true self grow up.

I believe there are various degrees of existence, and that part of it can be called 'metaphysical' for convenience purposes, but I don't believe that the metaphysical realms are outside of this reality- I think that dimensions or gradations are just ways to divide how we can experience them, and that we experience the 'gross physical (or macro)' with our bodies, and the metaphysical (or even microphysical or quantum states) with our fields.  I don't know if you can call a field 'the soul', but it may apply.  I also think that we have or are spirits that have expressed as bodies and souls.  The purpose is still fuzzy to me, as I don't really buy any theory I have heard.  The closest to 'motive' I have come up with it 'learning', not because I think it's what I think must be, but it seems to be what we do here, regardless of what we want to do.

 
 

When did this celestial being occupy the human bodies? Was it always inside of us ?

If we are spirits that chose to express as material bodies, then it's logical to think that spirits (us) existed before the material world, provided that we are eternal.  I prefer this theory.  Therefore, this means that we existed (or exist, as there is no past) before and after the universe as we know it.

Did it always use us to gain experience? If the answer is yes,then it means we had a higher self when we where Homosapiens, it means that we had a "soul" when we where fish swimming in the prehistoric ocean, Hell!!

I think so- I think we, as spirits, experienced all forms of being, from being a Helium atom to being pretty much anything at all.  A spirit however, (IMO) is not a higher self though- because it is already complete.  I think if something evolves it's the soul, the field generated to bring in nonphysical information to the body/brain, and help evolve it also.  So as you see, I think we are spirits using bodies and generating souls.

So I would say that everything is spirit (not has spirit, the spirit precludes the physical) but not everything has a soul, because the soul is a side-effect of life.  Of course, depends on how you define life.
   
   

What is a soul, what is this higher self, this true self everyone is talking about? Is it a godlike creature? Are we a god? Do we need all these experiences to become a god?

I think I answered most of this, except the higher self.  I think the Higher Self is a conglomeration of souls that come from the same spirit- for example, if there is reincarnation (and I see reincarnation as simultaneous, as time is only a measurement) then all those lives would be a function of one spirit, but the souls combine to form an oversoul, and the Higher Self is either a combination of all those lives or the 'most advanced' of these.  I think it's the same thing, but I could be wrong.


 

I could be here for Hours and hours writing about the possibilities , what "could be" but everytime I find an answer I find a flaw among it.

..
Of course, and you will probably find flaws in the theories I expoused, but that's ok.  I'm not sure about any of it either.  But for now, it's what I think about it.

[vasspilka]

Hi vasspilka.  I have to say that enlightenment is something personal, and I don't think anyone can give you that.  But I can share with you what I think about this, and you see if any of it sounds right to you.

I guess I couldn't find the right words so I used enlightenment . What I wanted to say is "in hope you could widen my perception of the matter"

I also think that we have or are spirits that have expressed as bodies and souls.

I have always perceived spirits and souls as one, same meaning different word, I have perceived them as the state outside the physical "world", the astral "world" if a may. The idea of there being and even deeper state than Astral the Spiritual "as in, say one level deeper" is appealing, and makes things even more complex which means they can be analyzed even more (Yayyy!!  ). I am not sure if this is what you meant but that what I understand you tried to say

A spirit however, (IMO) is not a higher self though- because it is already complete

From what I understand you are implying that a spirit is the ultimate being, it is an entity that is complete nothing to be improved. If I am not wrong that is what we here on the physical call God. Do you think there are more than one spirit could there be more than one Perfect being and if yes wouldn't they be identical? If they are both perfect they should be.

I think if something evolves it's the soul

If a soul is a part of a spirit why would it want to evolve? Isn't a spirit perfect? Should not all his part be perfect as well, including the soul? Could the soul want to become a spirit(meaning an even higher state of being)?


To sum up

Of course, and you will probably find flaws in the theories I expoused, but that's ok.

Of course, I could find flaws anywhere... But I guess you cant solve problems thinking the same way you created them... so it suits me fine


P.S. I am sorry I am making things difficult for you, but I always want to make things as clear as they can be. Maybe it is wrong to do so on something everyone knows so little about as the metaphysical. And even if there where enough info my perception of things may be too low to understand something so complex as this. If you feel my questions are becoming "silly" or unreasonable, or you are just unable to answer just tell me so I will back off 

[CFTraveler]

Nothing wrong in friendly conversation- you're not making it difficult, perhaps difficult to express, but it brings clarity to my thoughts.

From what I understand you are implying that a spirit is the ultimate being,

I implied that 'spirit' is a conceptual entity.  But I don't mean 'a spirit', just 'spirit'.  A monistic view perhaps, but the only way I can conceptualize it.

it is an entity that is complete nothing to be improved. If I am not wrong that is what we here on the physical call God.

Maybe.  Something like "God expressed as spirit".  See, an entity has limits, and I don't see God as having limits.

Do you think there are more than one spirit could there be more than one Perfect being and if yes wouldn't they be identical? If they are both perfect they should be.

No, because this would be quantifying the unquantifiable.  God has no limits, can't be counted, isn't first or last, even the word "being" is too limiting.  I like the word Spirit because it can describe 'being' without limiting it to 'being in 3D'.  Very hard for me to express.

If a soul is a part of a spirit why would it want to evolve?

The way I look at it, the soul is the part of 'being' that can express both in the physical and nonphysical.  Because the physical is a 'learning' environment (or an environment in which learning or evolving seems to be inevitable) then I suppose that if there is change and evolution, the soul does it.  That's why I differentiate it from Spirit (although I may be wrong in this)- because Spirit already is, Soul can change.
As to "why does it want to" I don't know- I don't know if "want" is a word that would apply in this.  I just know (or think I know) that it seems to.  When I'm nonphysical I learn things.  So that means that my nonphysical being can learn things.  I don't know if "want" is the word, but it seems to be the case.  Why is a very important word.  I don't know.  I don't know if I ever can know.

Isn't a spirit perfect?

I suppose so, in a certain way of thinking.

Should not all his part be perfect as well, including the soul?

Depends on what you mean by 'perfect'.  If by perfect you mean it doesn't have to change, I don't know- if by 'perfect' you mean 'can't change', then I would say no, because it seems like any kind of expression in the threedimensional (or multidimensional) universe includes change- everything is change, in expression.  It's possible that expression is change, and change is the basis of existence.  So there has to be a different way of looking at it.
I think this is why some belief systems see God as 'Unexpressed' and 'Expressed' and sometimes separate the concepts.  Of course in my view this is due to the human's need to separate and sequentialize everything (because it's how we perceive reality- in sequence) but it may just be ways in which God is; either perfect and unexpressed (as in Ein Sof of the Kabbalists or Atman of the Hindus) and changing and fluid, as in many other religions.

The thing is that I think that it's both, and just because we can't conceptualize it as both doesn't mean 'it can't be'- just not to our way of thinking.

Could the soul want to become a spirit(meaning an even higher state of being)?

Maybe.  Some call it 'reabsorption'.  But that's beyond what I can know or think of.

[Killa Rican]

The "soul" is unique to "you". It is the collective being of Everything "You" have EVER been. Human,animal,Bug, plant, alien. etc.

The Spirit is separate and will strictly stay human once you pass.

[rain_88]

Maybe you should check out Frank Kepple's legacy: http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html.

Yes, you can call it another theory - and you shouldn't buy any of it. As far as I understand he came to the conclusion that the "physical realm" is where the subjective/personal realities converge into an "objective" one. The purpose of this kind of existence is to experience the "objective".

But think about how ironic it is, creating an illusion with given rules in order to experience the objective. So the notions of soul, higher self, subjective, objective, enlightenment etc. are just simple concepts we use in order to make reality more objective. It is somewhat hilarious that we have to limit ourselves and put everything into little boxes to make them and reality more objective. And if you think about it, it is still faaaar from being "objective".

So, on the other hand, you can read until you are blue in the face, it is not really going to give you "right" answers, but maybe modify what you think and hereby, what you will experience.

Personally I think no one is going to "enlighten" you here or anywhere else, but you can find methods which will help you in stepping on the "path" and enlightening yourself. On the other hand it can be beneficial to hear about others' experiences in order to draw your OWN conclusions !

Cheers,
rain