How do you know if OBES are not just lucid dreams?

[Ihavewings]

When I think about this in depth it confuses me.

[Bedeekin]

This would be like being confused by wondering.. 'How do you know that snow isn't just water?' and would result in the same kind of answer.

[personalreality]

This is a subject I've been pounding into this forum for a while.

There are two sides of reality.  Our physical life and our non-physical life.

The labels "OBE, LD, Astral Projection, Active Imagination, Dream Walking, Pathworking, etc." are all just names that people have given the same experience over the years.  You've gotta understand that OBE is not a new phenomenon.  It's something that humans have been doing for eons.  Different cultures go about it in different ways and call it different things.

The fundamental point to understand is that it's not important to label your experience.  No matter what, you're experiencing the "other worlds".  The more accurate understanding would be to think of your experience as a continuum of awareness.  Sometimes you're very clear and cognizant in these experiences, sometimes they are fuzzy.  Once you try to define each particular experience you are detracting from the experience itself. 

So forget naming it and just go with it.  Just feel it, experience it and learn from it.   

[Xanth]

This is a subject I've been pounding into this forum for a while.

There are two sides of reality.  Our physical life and our non-physical life.

The labels "OBE, LD, Astral Projection, Active Imagination, Dream Walking, Pathworking, etc." are all just names that people have given the same experience over the years.  You've gotta understand that OBE is not a new phenomenon.  It's something that humans have been doing for eons.  Different cultures go about it in different ways and call it different things.

The fundamental point to understand is that it's not important to label your experience.  No matter what, you're experiencing the "other worlds".  The more accurate understanding would be to think of your experience as a continuum of awareness.  Sometimes you're very clear and cognizant in these experiences, sometimes they are fuzzy.  Once you try to define each particular experience you are detracting from the experience itself. 

So forget naming it and just go with it.  Just feel it, experience it and learn from it.   

Quoted for truth. 

[todd421757]

When I think about this in depth it confuses me.

Dreams involve some form of a physical or non physical visual sense. If you are able to completely eliminate this visual sense from your projections, you will have a better chance to find yourself in the real time zone with an etheric proprioception (motion) sense of your immediate surroundings.

Sometimes you can still have the visual sense in the real time zone and not fall into a dream. But, this is somewhat difficult to do.

Classic OBE's are not lucid dreams.

Lucid dreams = visual sense.

Classic OBE's = etheric proprioception (motion) sense.

Lucid dreams are contained in an internal subjective environment.

Classic OBE's are contained in an external energy environment

It is common to have a combination of a classic OBE and a lucid dream at the same time. For example, you are having a classic OBE in the energy environment, then your vision sense wakes up (clarity now), then you start to feel yourself slip into a dream (reality fluctuations).

[personalreality]

Dreams involve some form of a physical or non physical visual sense. If you are able to completely eliminate this visual sense from your projections, you will have a better chance to find yourself in the real time zone with an etheric proprioception (motion) sense of your immediate surroundings.

Sometimes you can still have the visual sense in the real time zone and not fall into a dream. But, this is somewhat difficult to do.

Classic OBE's are not lucid dreams.

Lucid dreams = visual sense.

Classic OBE's = etheric proprioception (motion) sense.

Lucid dreams are contained in an internal subjective environment.

Classic OBE's are contained in an external energy environment

It is common to have a combination of a classic OBE and a lucid dream at the same time. For example, you are having a classic OBE in the energy environment, then your vision sense wakes up (clarity now), then you start to feel yourself slip into a dream.

sorry todd, i like you, but that's the bullcrap that confuses people and makes projection difficult.  people are expecting all these experiences and it never goes the way they expect and they fail.

you may be 100% right, but for a newbie, the best approach in my opinion is that of the uncarved block.  let them be free of expectations and bias.  just tell them how to induce trance and then let them go from there.  it's all we can do.  this is such a subjective experience, it's too difficult to tell someone what to expect and to define every little thing.  when you do that you lose sight of the forest for the trees.

no offense though, really.  i'm not saying you're wrong at all, just i've learned over the years that the more complicated we make this, the harder it gets for people.

[todd421757]

I understand it may be confusing for someone that is just starting projections. But, I write only information based upon my experiences. I have to experience something many times before I even post it. My information is posted for anyone who is interested in it, which may be only a small minority of the members here. If anyone has any further questions about anything that I post, please send me a personal message.

[Bedeekin]

We all go through a little midpoint in our practice where we categorise... It's in our nature. I did.

It becomes clear after learning more that this is futile. It is like trying to catalogue the different shapes of blades of grass. Although scientific in approach... won't help you understand 'grass'.

But... it is a learning process.

After experiencing different 'types' of focus... after a certain time having repeated them... one starts to form answers. It's a process of elimination.

like personareality said in a nutshell...

"There are two sides of reality.  Our physical life and our non-physical life."

[todd421757]

Our true life force is energy. It is not visual images. The Law of Conservation of Energy is our true immortality.  

[Lionheart]

 The one adage I have always lived by is "keep it simple, stupid". This stands true especially in this instance. The NPR gives us enough questions itself without us making it even more confusing. I find this is a thing that we can determine ourselves "after" we have enough experience under our belts and then it's still only "our" opinion.

[Astralsuzy]

When I astral project I am awake.  I am not asleep.

[Tongo]

OBE's will always be WAYYYYYY more conscious and clearer than lucid dreams.  I remember before I really knew about OBE's and before I got interested in them generally, my friend who had an OBE told me about his experience. Being skeptical at the time I told him it was probably just a clearer than average LD but with that he told me strongly "NO this was much MUCH more clearer! as clear as I am awake now!". This is also true judging by many other accounts of full blown OBE's I have read siting the differences between LD's and OBE's.

Lucid dreams while good are simply not as conscious as OBE's. That's how you know the difference.

[Bedeekin]

True... A lucid dream will always be coloured by the vivid dream it was woken from... a conscious projection is clearer because it's entered from wakefulness. Even then, if ones mind drifts into hypnogogia the OOBE can be full of ego 'noise'.
There are many 'types' of conscious OOBE that appear to have different qualities depending on local and situation. Some places you are visible some were you are as an invisible ghost... some have persistent constrained rules.. some are very crazy, abstract and can be polar opposites to each other.

But they aren't different in terms of what is happening.. you are phasing from this reality into the wider reality.

I gave up categorising years ago.

[Szaxx]

Hi,
I like your point Bedeekin.
Ill think on it a little...

[Lionheart]

 Yes Bedeekin once again hit the nail on the head. When you have a Lucid Dream, you are first consciously awaking in a fog. You were sleeping one moment, now you have been roused awake by your awareness of being in a dream. You are at first startled, until you get a grasp on what is actually happening. This is where you need to heighten your awareness.The longer you stay aware, the better the vividness will be. When you consciously project or Phase from an awakened state, you aren't startled. There may be a degree of fog at first, but this is because you are undergoing a shift, but once that shift is complete, it's as vivid as it is here in the physical world. But every place you go to in NPR will have it's own obstacles or distractions. When I visit the NPR from a Lucid Dream state, I have a body that can be seen and viewed from my perspective. Normally when I enter by Phasng I am ust a simple Point of View.

[Xanth]

True... A lucid dream will always be coloured by the vivid dream it was woken from... a conscious projection is clearer because it's entered from wakefulness. Even then, if ones mind drifts into hypnogogia the OOBE can be full of ego 'noise'.
There are many 'types' of conscious OOBE that appear to have different qualities depending on local and situation. Some places you are visible some were you are as an invisible ghost... some have persistent constrained rules.. some are very crazy, abstract and can be polar opposites to each other.

But they aren't different in terms of what is happening.. you are phasing from this reality into the wider reality.

I gave up categorising years ago.

If you increase your awareness to the point which you're at your full waking awareness, it's as clear as any conscious projection.
I know, I've done it countless times. 

[Bedeekin]

If you increase your awareness to the point which you're at your full waking awareness, it's as clear as any conscious projection.
I know, I've done it countless times. 

Totally.

I assume you are talking about the LD?

[Lionheart]

 Pegamoide12345, a good rule to live by is "Believe half of what you hear and everything you see". I have heard Dr. Goldberg speak, these are his conclusions or should I say opinions on what is real and what isn't. Wait until you experience the NPR for yourself for awhile and you will find you will also form your own opinions on what is happening and where you are going. But you won't be marketing it to the masses like this guy does, so you won't have to "jazz" it up, per say.

[Astralsuzy]

Very true Lionheart.  I form my own opinions from my experiences.  If I am not sure about it, then I leave it in the category of not sure.

[personalreality]

@pegamoide12345

I love me some Bruce Goldberg, but he's a hypnotherapist, not a projector.  He jumped on the new age band wagon and sold some books.

I still like him though.  I just use his hypnosis techniques and leave the astral to my own mind to discover.

[todd421757]

Hey man, when you have a Real Time Projection, you will know.

A real time projection is here and now. You are basically a ghost and can see your body lying in bed and decide where you go in this same physical reality the only difference is you are a ghost now. You are just a projected double of your etheric body. This is not a lucid dream.
In fact, many people go from Lucid Dreams and turn them into Out of Body(Astral Projection) experiences. So they are just not the same at all.

This is what I have found too.

[Ihavewings]

I just get confused because during my OBES there are things that are not suppose to be there, for example. I am wearing clothes that I was not wearing when I went to bed, the people in my house are where they are not suppose to be. There are things that are not suppose to be there, such as randmo food on the table.

[Volgerle]

I just get confused because during my OBES there are things that are not suppose to be there, for example. I am wearing clothes that I was not wearing when I went to bed, the people in my house are where they are not suppose to be. There are things that are not suppose to be there, such as randmo food on the table.

Reality Fluctuations is the name for it. We talked about it here a lot. It is also a usual 'skeptic's objection'. As I do not want to re-write everything I copy this over from another thread with few edits where I wrote this already:

Remember that physical reality is only stable perhaps because your physical brain is 'tuned' in to it while in beta-waves-state, itis not stable otherwise! I'd say actually it is not stable at all. Maybe it is not even 'real'. Or at least not more or less real than astral planes, dream planes, etc.?

Reality fluctuations are normal. If you don't want them maybe try practice etheric projections (ask todd about this). We talked about this in several threads recently, e.g. here:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/etheric_projection_and_kundalini_symptoms-t37565.0.html;msg308121#msg308121

Imv, the best explanation for reality fluctuations I found so far is the "sea shell bubble analogy" by Juergen, who occasionally also posts here on this forum as MDM (*waves hand to Jürgen, if you read this*).

Allow me to quote from his interesting website regarding this topic:

"The greatest criticism Out-Of-Body travellers face from skeptics is the fact that they are unable to supply proof of their OBE excursions, for example by reading messages out of sight from physical view or information from remote locations. The reason for this becomes obvious if we look at the diagram 1 of the sea shell. The shell represents the physical body and the seabed the physical world. The air bubble represents the projected subtle energy body and the area above the sea the higher dimensional counter part. As the OBE body is composed of the energy of the higher dimension its natural attraction is towards it and it passes very quickly from one dimension to the next, like an air bubble would find the quickest way to the surface and into the air.

It is relatively rare for the energy body to remain for any length of time on the physical level. I can count on one hand the number of times I was able to look at my physical body from the outside. OBE travellers often report discomfort whilst still on the physical level or a strong pull either towards it or away from it. Sometimes this can be accompanied by confusion, blurriness, blacked-out vision or disorientation.

OBE excursion take mostly place on the first dimensional counterpart of the physical, which appears to be an exact copy, but isn't. Travellers often report slight abnormalities which they find confusing, such as the layout of their bedroom having changed, furniture being added or removed, pictures having changed etc. When asked to find information placed at a different location in order to test the authenticity of their experience they will nearly always fail to give an accurate report." - J. Ziewe

Source: http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Mechanics_of_Out-of-body_travel.html

Also interesting, Robert Bruce's descriptions of perfectly normal RFs in the "RTZ":
http://books.google.de/books?id=PId1UeRY_TYC&pg=PA225&lpg=PA225&dq=%22reality+fluctuations%22&source=bl&ots=-uNWZOmNmS&sig=4cirqIYFtDmo8laru1BjXmTJdYM&hl=de&ei=fDISTYbEApKn8QPbrYWFBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22reality%20fluctuations%22&f=false

[Bedeekin]

I have got to the stage now where the dream... real OOBE... reality line as been blurred and no longer matters.

I know it matters to the scientific community... but they ignore anything outside their belief system. Unfortunately their belief system as a whole is very specific to this reality set.

[Xanth]

I have got to the stage now where the dream... real OOBE... reality line as been blurred and no longer matters.

I know it matters to the scientific community... but they ignore anything outside their belief system. Unfortunately their belief system as a whole is very specific to this reality set.

Yeah, the kind of revolution that will happen when we realize physical and non-physical are the same thing will be staggering.  It'll rock the very foundation of our knowledge.