Who is up for a million dollar? JREF is challenging : )

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AreYouSerious11

Hello,

Dear astral projector, the James Randi Educational Foundation, a paranormal skeptic research organization, is proposing 1 million dollar for whoever can prove spiritual world/abilities exist.

AP experts, please consider this life opportunity and prove what you're doing is real  :-)


Here is the link and info:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html


Good Luck..


AreYouSerious11

Yes, it's for real  :-D

I wish I could astral project and were good at it  :-(

Lionheart

 AreYOuSerious, it sounds like this is your chance to make a Million Dollars.

Go for it!  :-)

Mendel

I believe we have a better chance of remote viewing the winning lotto numbers than trying to win the JREF prize.
I've read that the challenge is a bit biased towards failure.

|Anthony|

It depends how one looks at astral projection and/or lucid dreaming. One can practice the art of lucid dreaming or astral projection (even if APing to a person is simply recreating a parallel or illusion world similar to the real world within one's own mind). Dr. Charles Tart has done interesting EEG studies with astral projecting throughout the 1970s and 1980s (even used Robert Monroe as a test subject). Stephen LaBerge has done numerous tests into lucid dreaming. Dr. Ann Faraday and Jill Morris, Ph.D (dream psychologists) also acknowledge the facts of lucid dreaming. There's no debating that lucid dreaming is real (even though some psychologist still claim it's not) yet there's nothing "supernatural" about it (unless one wants to make it so). The point is that unlike claiming to predict the future, or use tarot cards to see an outcome, or claim to talk to the dead....lucid dreaming falls into an area that it can only be shown to be real through EEG, testimony's, or the (yet unable) ability to enter someone's dreams (same for NDEs).  So going on Randi's tv show in this case won't work. What Randi is proposing isn't anything new.  Interesting some of Tarts tests have shown minor psi results (cat, number) but othes have shown nothing impressive.  Lucid dreaming isn't anything supernatural, spiritual, or religious unless one wants to make it so. Lucid dreaming is the ability to become aware, and control one's dream. Astral Projection is similar (especially if you believe astral projection is nothing more than higher advanced vivid dreams). Maybe astral projection is a projection of consciousnes to a higher plane thats slightly out of line from the physical...maybe not. Im a believer nor a skeptic. I can lucid dream and I had astral projection like experiences with techniques. Im not religious, not spiritual, and not out to do anything supernatural by it. Im in the area of Deism...or Agnostic-Deism. Not an Atheist, but not a Theist. Have no interest in religion or new age nonsense. Does conscious continue after death? Maybe...I don't know. I believe so...I believe the universe is more complex than it seems and I dont believe everything from the big band to where we are today is just one "pure random chance after another" but at the same time I can't prove it. Maybe we're not meant to know...who knows. Is astral travel an indication of this? I don't know...maybe...maybe not. Ive had AP that seem real and identical to my surroundings to the point a car was in teh same position in awakenign life. Than I had APs that when I went to verify the people or items I saw weren't there and never where there thus just being a dream. So I can't say or prove anything either way. Also if anyone who practices LD or AP can tell you that vision in these states sometimes are very hard making observing the natural world around them difficult. I see what Randi is saying on one end. That wild claims of people APing and meeting aliens, making wild prediciting future events, claiming god gave them revelations, or other "Sylvia Brown" type stuff is just insane. With the exception of AP or the debate of does conscious continue after death I'm all on Randis side. I think most (if not all) of these "psychics" and "readers" and "people that can bend metal with their mind" are just scammers. But I also do not agree with Randi in the sense it can be easily dismissed as nothing more than supernatural nonsense since there is something for sure happening thats differnet than the normal when lucid dreaming...and is the brain more complex than we can imagine...and researchers still are active in this field. I dont think Randi is tageting (although I could totally be wrong) those whom practice LD/AP for research or other reasons or open to the fact it can an illusion of the mind through a higher form of dreaming or something thats out of realm of understanding (at this time). I think its more targeting those whom claim to AP and than say "and I talk to Jesus, and saw the world end in 2018, and talked to ET on Mars, and watched your cousin take a bath last week" types. Psychology can get tricky when it comes to the subject of dreams...why so many psychologists write their "views" on why we dream or what dreams might stand for. We still havent yet found out why we dream, and why we dream unaware (theories are presented, but thats it). I thought although can be wrong reading Randi supports people investigating the claims within field of Parapsychology but just rejects any PSI claims behind it. Ie..he sees nothign wrong with it being used as a science to research these areas, but rejects any unprovable claims and other psi nonsense that might come from it. "Randi distinguishes between pseudoscience and crackpot science. Most of parapsychology is, he argues, pseudoscience, like homeopathy, but nonetheless is a legitimate science, even if, in his view, it is odd that over 120 years of research practitioners have failed to come up with one positive experiment. He compares this failure to a doctor who, over a career of similar length, has failed to cure a single patient and yet persists in his profession.[66]" -- Wikipedia. I guess Randi like all of us is in the position that we cant prove or disprove consciousness continuing after death.

Anthony--

AreYouSerious11

#6
Quote from: Lionheart on June 11, 2013, 16:58:02
AreYOuSerious, it sounds like this is your chance to make a Million Dollars.

Go for it!  :-)

I wish I could but unfortunately I'm not up to the task :(

I'm not an expert and I'm not even sure my very few are are real AP experiences or just lucid dreaming :(

The Question is: why don't YOU do it?  :?

AreYouSerious11

Quote from: Mendel on June 11, 2013, 17:57:53
I believe we have a better chance of remote viewing the winning lotto numbers than trying to win the JREF prize.
I've read that the challenge is a bit biased towards failure.

Well, you maybe right. After all, they are trying to falsify these claims and deny the spiritual world. However, if you're sure of your capabilities, I believe it's worth trying and exposing if they don't deliver their promises..

|Anthony|

It's not that Randi is trying to deny the spiritual world (well maybe he is since he's atheistic but thats not the point of my post). Its more of disproving the scammers and con-artists. Parapsychology in its long history has had a long list of scammers (sadly to say). People that claim to do or see the most crazy things. Two examples are 1: Psychokinesis and 2: Ectoplasm. Ectoplasm was big in the late 19th century with altered/forged pictures that would take a ghost like appearance and place it over a picture of a living person to make it seem that a newly snapped picture was taken with a spirit in it. Reality is it was two photo negatives being merged. So exposing people that use fraud means to deceive others should be exposed. Psychics that charge $500 for useless cold readings. Televisionagalists that claim to heal you in the name of God for a fee. Watch the film "Supernatural" from 1933. It stars Carole Lombard and is posted on Youtube in full film (as its public domain now). Excellent film. Although it's a supernatural tale with some supernatural stuff in it...there's a spirit communicator in that film that uses all these mechanical and phony instruments (like face impression clay, spirit horns, etc) to make it seem the deceased brother of a rich young woman is trying to communicate with him. The spiritualist is actually a magician con-artist in that film and uses a lot of tricks that were common of such "communicators" of that time. So Randi exposing these people is a good thing. I dont hold the same views as he does (atheistic) and I dont agree on everything he might say. I do believe (without religous connections) consciousnes does or at least can survive death...but thats just a belief. But I stop there as I dont know nor can prove it. However that doesnt stop me from exposing con artists, religous scammers, and the likes. At the same time that doesnt stop me from having a strong interest into the research and experimenting of parapsychology.

Astral Projection is a touchy subject.  I know another forum that's also based on posting and teaching how to astral project but they're forum stance is that astral projection is just a higher form (if not the highest forum) of lucid dreaming. So views vary.

I personally do not believe in Remote Viewing which is a more modern term for "extra-sensory perception". Actually let me reinstate...Ive seen no evidence to support believing in Remote Viewing (and Im aware of the so called "US Government" research into this area after WWII).

|Anthony|

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html#eight

Pretty interesting if anyones interested. Im not saying I support or not support Tart's claims...but still interesting.

Lionheart

Quote from: AreYouSerious11 on June 11, 2013, 21:53:41
I wish I could but unfortunately I'm not up to the task :(

I'm not an expert and I'm not even sure my very few are are real AP experiences or just lucid dreaming :(

The Question is: why don't YOU do it?  :?
You will learn, once you get deeper in this practice, that the only person that you need to prove this to is yourself.

You will also see that your values on what's important and what's not have changed.

This is hard for someone that has not experienced this to understand, but it is the truth.

roman67

Wow, this is an amazing opportunity for lucky ones.

Szaxx

Not worth it. Too little time and you're expected to perform like a little doggy jumping through hoops.
Randi knows the art and wants it proved as mainstream nonsense.
A properly conducted scientific study could be made with the award offered.
Read the small print within the rules.
He tried a similar thing in the 80's on T.V.
The participants were ridiculed after complaining its too stressful and pushy to work. The results were inconclusive.
Had he arranged four years of scientific study in a suitable environment, things would be different.
There's far more where the eye can't see.
Close your eyes and open your mind.

Volgerle

same ol' story ... *yawn*  :|

I admit, for me it's hard to not get sarcastic or ironic on yet another Randi thread here (we have thousands, you should just bother to use the search function) but ok, my serious reply after all to the OP, once again in a Randi thread, but shorter this time and only by important links given ...

a good book recommended!
http://www.amazon.com/RANDIS-PRIZE-sceptics-paranormal-matters/dp/1848764944/

a good blog post recommened! (two parts)
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge.html
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p.html

nuff said.
:-P

|Anthony|

#14
This link is a good reason I support James Randi exposing the scammers and deceivers:

http://www.gypsypsychicscams.com/

A vast majority of so called "down the street" psychics and mediums are frauds. That's the reality of it. They need to be exposed along with their gypsy scams (ie remove a curse for $900.00).

On the other hand; I don't support dismissing "real" parapsychology and its research and those that dabble in true experiments/exercises in it. I find parapsychology fascinating, and of course I don't dismiss the area of consciousness existing after death in some form and fascinated by the OBE and LD topics (I had numerous LDs, and AP like experiences).

The term parapsychology means "alongside" psychology. Para means "alongside" or "side by side / beside". LAUSD terms teacher aids as "paraprofessionals" because they work "alongside" teachers. So parapsychology is researching the things that are yet unexplained or mysterious that runs along or beside psychology. Psychology is mostly the science dealing with the mind and consciousness. OBEs are something that deals with consciousness (and mind) on a possible different level (outside the body); which is why some regular psychologist will investigate or research these alter states of consciousness "alongside" their regular psychology trade. I personally believe "lucid dreaming" falls under both regular psychology and parapsychology. True parapsychologists are those trained in their fields of science and research and uses the scientific method (to some degree). They know how to investigate such things like OBEs and NDE's and those areas without holding biased in trying to prove or disprove it. Dr. Ian Stevenson is one example of such people.

Parapsychologists are not TV celebrities with a college degree in acting whom claim that one day he/she woke up and now can see ghosts, and months later starts his/her own dramatic ghost hunt TV show followed by writing new age books.

Stillwater

There is no winnining the Randi Prize in this or any lifetime.

The Prize has been discounted as a fool's-errand publicity stunt for over a decade. The standards of what constitutes proof are extraordinary and nearly impossible to meet, and entirely based on Randi's opinion for the final say.

Randi is a practitioner of psuedoscience... no legitimate scientific endeaver is so dependent on the whims and fanices of the researcher. He has done good work teaching the public about parlor magicians charading as religious saints wih mystical powers, but I can't offer much more praise than that. He sees the whole world through fraud-tinted glasses, and no matter what you or any of us shows Randi, it cannot be more than a hoax.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

|Anthony|

#16
Well we can agree one thing for sure that Randi did which was great. He exposed that fraud "Uri geller" whom claimed to be a psychic of the paranormal in the field of "spoon bending through mental powers". Now "Uri Geller" claims to be only an entertainer out to do a good show, and spoon bending is seen as being only a magic illusion trick in today's present world lol. Some people (like Eva Carrièr/Marthe Béraud was) if clever enough will use any scam to acheive status, and parpsychology is no stranger to scammers.

Volgerle

Quote from: |Anthony| on June 14, 2013, 09:46:30
Well we can agree one thing for sure that Randi did which was great. He exposed that fraud "Uri geller" whom claimed to be a psychic of the paranormal in the field of "spoon bending through mental powers". Now "Uri Geller" claims to be only an entertainer out to do a good show, and spoon bending is seen as being only a magic illusion trick in today's present world lol. Some people (like Eva Carrièr/Marthe Béraud was) if clever enough will use any scam to acheive status, and parpsychology is no stranger to scammers.
Geller is a more complicated case and not THAT straight-forward as generally described. He was tested before by scientists in a lab and showed some interesting 'results'. He might have had some capabilities. Only later when he seemed to have lost them or was unable to repeat them he without doubt resorted to do common tricks easily to be debunked for the most part.

As regards spoon bending I would not be so fast with a final judgement either. Just from a personal experience viewpoint. Out of fun, I once tried it with concentration and it worked, the spoon bent with easiness. It did not work the other times then. I do not know how I did it but this 'experience' is possible like so many other 'paranormal' or 'peri-normal' experiences. The spoon bent and felt like rubber when it moved into the new position and then 'felt' normal and solid again when in the newly bent state. I did not apply force without knowing it. 4-5 repetitions I tried did not work though. Maybe I had a 'magickal' moment.  :wink: :|

Stillwater

QuoteMaybe I had a 'magickal' moment.    :wink:  :| 

I like the ambiguous use of emoticons attempting to explain an idiosyncratically compound emotion, lol.
"The Gardener is but a dream of the Garden."

-Unattributed Zen monastic

Xanth

I just wish the community, and humans in general, would stop trying to further divide us... I wish people with influence could/would actually use that influence to bring people together instead.  >_<