Value of conscious projection vs other

[Xanth]

I didn't want to take soki's post (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/getting_a_little_more_control_4_aps_in_a_session_phased_to_desired_location-t45647.0.html) off topic with this, but I think it needs to be discussed.

This question isn't aimed at Plasma, but as a general question to begin a discussion on it.

Alright, glad to see your making progress. At this rate you should be having conscious astral projections in no time.

As for me I find that I like feeling my way around when trying to project instead of visualizing.

Keep up the good work.

My question relates to what what Plasma posted above, which alludes to "well yeah you can project while already non-physical (aka, project from a dream), but that's not as impressive or important as having a conscious exit projection."

I know some authors, such as William Buhlman, seem to be of the opinion that it's of greater importance to be able to project from a conscious state.
Do you put more stock in being able to project from a conscious state over become aware while already dreaming? 
Do you respect a person's experience when they say they initiated it from a completely wake state vs someone who initiated it from a dream?

What is everyone's thoughts on that?

[soki]

I think the experience remains the same. But doing it while being awake offers a little plus in my opinion since you don't have to go to sleep to experience it. You can lay down at any moment of the day and have an AP in no time. Be it induced from the waking state or not, an AP is an AP. But it makes me feel a little more in control to know I can induce it from the waking state, even if it's only in my head.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I know some authors, such as William Buhlman, seem to be of the opinion that it's of greater importance to be able to project from a conscious state.
Do you put more stock in being able to project from a conscious state over become aware while already dreaming?  
Do you respect a person's experience when they say they initiated it from a completely wake state vs someone who initiated it from a dream?

What is everyone's thoughts on that?

I feel like one can increase their chances of getting to astral project if they consciously try to astral project. I can practice multiple times a day trying to consciously astral project that way.

I know what your trying to get at Xanth. You think that as long as Soki is having astral projections even though their not of high quality awareness who cares, as long as they are having non-physical experiences that is almost just as good as having a high quality awareness projection at soki's stage.

In the end I guess you could say that Soki is already having conscious astral projections.

I don't think my words should have been picked apart like that, as what I said was just meant to be a general encouragement to get a higher quality AP that I am sure Soki is really looking for. Not that I am trying to down play his current progress.

[soki]

And I understood it the good way PlasmaAstralProjection don't worry. Yes I would like it more being fully aware, but I'm really happy with the results I got for now and it makes me wanna work harder! Non-physical is non-physical, it is nice and impressive to experience it!

[Bluefirephoenix]

I think every so called non physical experience has value. The value may not be the same for all experiences. The ability to see this depends on maturity. It's not something that can be rushed or forced.   Journaling will perhaps help to expose the value and subtlties that are not readily apparent.

I also think that have a goal related to non physical experiences is not a bad thing. A toddler has a high drive to explore thus motivating the desire to crawl, walk and run. The toddler places more value on learning to run as it gets him/her to the object of curiosity before someone steps in to limit what they can do. It's not that walking and crawling are not valuable but the toddler is too immature to understand the value in other skills until they relate to the object of his curiosity.

So seeing the conscious exploration without the hinderance of a body isn't much different. The value in the other forms of non physical exploration may not be apparent at first. When they relate to the object of curiosity then other experiences and skills will become valuable.

[Lucidityman]

Hi

To me it does not matter how the person projected. Like I don't view a persons obe any more or less then a person who does it through meditation or s/p.  For me when I ep from s/p my environment and projection is very clear. I am 100 percent focused in that environment. When I ep from a ld then about 90 percent of the time the ep environment will contain remnets or pieces of the lucid dream that some how got carried over. I call those a dirty projection. 

I ep this morning and walked in the snow with bare feet. Felt no temp. Looked down and wondered why I don't leave any feet prints in the snow. Next step I started to leave feet prints..LOL I love the brain.

[Kzaal]

To me it doesn't matter in which state you AP.
None is better than the other in terms of quality/teachings.
I think for me, I've learned more things via LD's because I suddenly take focus in a dream when I see something is wrong in it.
Sure being able to project consciously is an achievement in itself because it requires a lot of practice but when you do that you are focused from the beginning to the end.
When I end up projecting or just switching from a dream to a lucid one, my focus kicks in and I normally have to take a huge decision in my dream in order to change it back to something more comfortable.
Sometimes it's good to have conscious AP tho, because I've learned many things from those.
But in terms of challenges and stuff like that, nothing beats being chased or in a bad situation and suddenly becoming lucid in order to find a way out of the mess you are already in. This can train your brain to make better/faster decision which is important in everyday life.

In terms of quality, I think all of them are as good as the other.
The only thing I would say is... Practice all the methods in order to learn from all of these.

[Rakkso]

To me it doesn't matter in which state you AP.
None is better than the other in terms of quality/teachings.

In order to become the best, you get the best training that Best's do, and it is precisely not the easiest.

I know of one who has Translocated in less than 20 seconds, upon closing his eyes.

The awards of this are no "un-thinking" state in between or some would call it "uncounciousness", as it happens when you go dreaming.

You get to do it and BANG, Tangible Non-physical 3D in Full Technicolor  all around you. you inmediatly ask, do, go, learn whatever you wanted to. Childs play once you are there.

In some LD you follow the story line but only aware, in others you forget what you wanted to do and just go flying/whatever, in others you miraculously remember what you wanted to do in your next counscious projection, and you do it, these are the rarer still.

However, it would be very difficult to try to run if you haven't first learned to crawl.

[Lucidityman]

Hi

The reward is that you did it. Just you all you. You get the 100% of your own self accomplishment. Purity.Every time you do it, does not matter how, your brain learns, and after doing it, you get used to it. Then the brain filters out the stuff that you got used to.. its never gone.. just has been refined to make old news faster. Like ridding a bike ..you start with a tri cycle first, then eventually you learn weight and speed on 2 wheels egual balance.. you learn the same way to obe by doing it. Sometimes you fall off and scrap your knee..LOL  All you need is interest.

[Kzaal]

In order to become the best, you get the best training that Best's do, and it is precisely not the easiest.

I know of one who has Translocated in less than 20 seconds, upon closing his eyes.

The awards of this are no "un-thinking" state in between or some would call it "uncounciousness", as it happens when you go dreaming.

You get to do it and BANG, Tangible Non-physical 3D in Full Technicolor  all around you. you inmediatly ask, do, go, learn whatever you wanted to. Childs play once you are there.

In some LD you follow the story line but only aware, in others you forget what you wanted to do and just go flying/whatever, in others you miraculously remember what you wanted to do in your next counscious projection, and you do it, these are the rarer still.

However, it would be very difficult to try to run if you haven't first learned to crawl.

There is no best or better, speed doesn't matter because it cannot be measured, who tells you that this person didn't prepare himself for the projection 3 hours beforehand and was not just ready to jump in? Who can really tell when someone is projecting?
There should not be any kind of boasting about projection. I mean, I don't even think about it, when I project, I project for the experience I'm going to get, the excitement... The thrill of what new stuff I'm going to learn.
In astral projection even an amateur can learn some things you have yet to understand.
In the end, it's all about the quality and the teaching in your experience...

[Rakkso]

There is no best or better, speed doesn't matter because it cannot be measured,

I think its called Time. Are you saying also that there are no worse methods then? lol

who tells you that this person didn't prepare himself for the projection 3 hours beforehand and was not just ready to jump in? Who can really tell when someone is projecting?

Would the answer to this be, No One, but the person itself and again, absolutely no one else?? lol

There should not be any kind of boasting about projection. I mean, I don't even think about it, when I project, I project for the experience I'm going to get, the excitement... The thrill of what new stuff I'm going to learn.
In astral projection even an amateur can learn some things you have yet to understand.
In the end, it's all about the quality and the teaching in your experience...

I think you missunderstood me, as im not boasting, I never said it was me. And if it were me, i wouldn't say it so i wouldn't boast. As I did.

As is seems im really bad at interpreting myself, i'll try to be more exact this time for your comprehension.

I know some authors, such as William Buhlman, seem to be of the opinion that it's of greater importance to be able to project from a conscious state.
1.- Do you put more stock in being able to project from a conscious state over become aware while already dreaming?  
2- Do you respect a person's experience when they say they initiated it from a completely wake state vs someone who initiated it from a dream?

3.- What is everyone's thoughts on that?

1.-Yes
2.- Of course Yes, since I started the same way, as I believe absolutely everyone else from childhood does.
3.-
a) In an LD:
    In some LD you follow the story line but only aware, in others you forget what you wanted to do and just go flying/whatever, in others you miraculously remember what you wanted to do in your next counscious projection, and you do it, these are the rarer still.

b)  In a conscious projection:
    You get to do it and BANG, Tangible Non-physical 3D in Full Technicolor  all around you. you inmediatly ask, do, go, learn whatever you wanted to. Childs play once you are there.

Im not new here you know (now this is boasting lol)

[Kzaal]

I think its called Time. Are you saying also that there are no worse methods then? lol
Would the answer to this be, No One, but the person itself and again, absolutely no one else?? lol
I think you missunderstood me, as im not boasting, I never said it was me. And if it were me, i wouldn't say it so i wouldn't boast. As I did.

As is seems im really bad at interpreting myself, i'll try to be more exact this time for your comprehension.1.-Yes
2.- No, since I started the same way, as I believe absolutely everyone else from childhood does.
3.-
a) In an LD:
    In some LD you follow the story line but only aware, in others you forget what you wanted to do and just go flying/whatever, in others you miraculously remember what you wanted to do in your next counscious projection, and you do it, these are the rarer still.

b)  In a conscious projection:
    You get to do it and BANG, Tangible Non-physical 3D in Full Technicolor  all around you. you inmediatly ask, do, go, learn whatever you wanted to. Childs play once you are there.

Im not new here you know (now this is boasting lol)

I wasn't talking about you... I was talking about that person, or anyone boasting about their "abilities" of projection...
In the end it doesn't matter how fast you can project.

The only important parts about projection is how long you can stay there, how focused you are while projecting, how much you remember of that projection and the quality of the teachings you learn.

When I said speed cannot be measured I was talking about the time it takes you to project, it cannot be measured by other people other than the one performing the projection.

Someone with a very developed 3rd eye would have no problem at all going for projection. But the problem is that when one chakra is too high, the others suffer.
If you're 3rd eye is over opened there will be bad repercussions, i.e.: hallucinations in real life, or maybe even to a certain degree you could be qualified as a schizophrenic person.
If your 3rd eye is too much open it will accept everything it see's and will make assumptions and interpret things totally in a wrong mindset. The focus can be affected greatly and altho that person might achieve an AP in 20 seconds, he would be missing the points because his focus would be set on Mystical things and crazy idea's.

AP'ing is for personal benefits and to help people. As in learning to be a better person, finding a deeper meaning to your life, finding your path. Learning to love...
There is no benefits in bragging about how experienced you are, this goes for most stuff in life also.
Bragging leads to desires and desires leads to the 3 deadly poisons...

[Xanth]

1.-Yes
2.- Of course Yes, since I started the same way, as I believe absolutely everyone else from childhood does.

In regards to both of your replies for #1 and #2... fair enough, but why?

[Rakkso]

I wasn't talking about you... I was talking about that person, or anyone boasting about their "abilities" of projection...
In the end it doesn't matter how fast you can project.

The only important parts about projection is how long you can stay there, how focused you are while projecting, how much you remember of that projection and the quality of the teachings you learn.

In the end, if you have been practicing and doing your homework, you consciously project.
The conscious projection encompasses all that. its the holy grail of projections, just a saying of mine.

The focus can be affected greatly and altho that person might achieve an AP in 20 seconds, he would be missing the points because his focus would be set on Mystical things and crazy idea's.

No, he would just phase in 20 seconds with complete awareness, and 60 seconds befoer, he thought exactly about what he wanted to do when he phased, and he does it. simple.

In regards to both of your replies for #1 and #2... fair enough, but why?

Because you have clearer in you mind what you want to do, learn, where you want to go, ask for any kind of teaching, experience, etc. all counciously.
its like ordering your favorite Ice-cream. Or if you are bored you just ask for a random flavor that teaches something new. if you are not conscious, your fathers might order a random ice-cream for you, or you could just get stuck on a script.

Those are just my thoughts.

[Xanth]

Because you have clearer in you mind what you want to do, learn, where you want to go, ask for any kind of teaching, experience, etc. all counciously.
its like ordering your favorite Ice-cream. Or if you are bored you just ask for a random flavor that teaches something new. if you are not conscious, your fathers might order a random ice-cream for you, or you could just get stuck on a script.

Those are just my thoughts.

Fine thoughts, indeed. 

But... what if I told you that my spontaneous projections are as focused as any conscious projection I've had.  Would that, at the very least, get you to examine your original assessment then?  <-- this is true btw. 

See... my point being that any "rule" that we can come up with (in this case, that a conscious projection is of greater value than a spontaneous one), there is *ALWAYS* (read: 100% of the time) someone who has experienced something which negates that "rule".

It's like if someone tells you that during a projection you can't walk through walls... and yet *YOU* walk through walls just fine while you're projecting, then their original assertion is obviously incorrect.  I've personally been guilty of this kind of thinking in the past and as a direct result, I try to not say that something is finite, unless it is (but it's never been LoL).

[EscapeVelocity]

I think the two perspectives are basically equal, maybe different sides of the same coin, as I said in a related thread. I think each perspective needs to be explored and developed, in order for the advancement of the whole to occur.

There are two perspectives we should keep aware of: our typical Physical and our Non-Physical perspective; the Physical Consciousness and the Non-Physical Consciousness. Early on, I think that it becomes apparent that they are two different things; maybe the whole point to our evolution is to eventually merge them into a unified whole that is capable of traversing many dimensions.

We all initially want Physical Conscious experiences, so that's what we understandably aim for and expect. We get some of those, but also, we get some experiences where our operative consciousness is not quite under our control, not quite as rationalistic as we would assume, but rather operates on a much more 'NP instinctive' level. We see this in semi-lucid dreams and obes where we only take command later on. We think of these experiences as awkward, semi-intelligent obes where we just don't have enough lucidity or control.

What I have come to realize is that these are experiences showing me the level of my NP or 'instinctive' awareness/personality. This is a very different aspect of awareness and consciousness that we will have to become familiar with. And sometimes it responds better than I might have, had I been fully conscious within the experience. Upon reviewing some Lucid Dreams and the actions I took, I can see a certain subconscious decision-making going on, complicated decisions being made, that my Physical consciousness had no part in; and yet, I made the proper decisions. That is operating at the NP instinctive level, and we sometimes recognize it in our dreams. That operant NP dreaming consciousness is what we need to merge our Physical consciousness with in order to evolve our total available consciousness.

When the two perspectives are properly merged, I get responses to choose from, based on both Physical and Non-Physical frameworks, and I can decide from there; right now, I have to admit that my instinctive side is right more often than not; my challenge being recognizing the fact.Lol.