Is there such a thing as a non-physical world?

[Stillwater]

Careful with this question, it may mean something different than you might suppose!

This is a question relating to the philosophy of cosmology I have been considering lately.

Why this question arises becomes more clear when we consider the root meaning of the world physical: a physical system is a system with physics- a system who's behavior can be understood as being governed by laws, be they known or unknown.

So with this definition in mind, let's approach metaphysics. Now most of us here seem to agree that the reality we are experiencing does not appear to be base reality, but rather that this reality is "grounded" in something else. In this tradition, this reality is called "physical", and the reality it is grounded in is called "nonphysical". But is this right? For instance, wouldn't we expect this grounding world to behave by discernable laws? If it in fact did behave by laws, it would in effect be physical. And if it did not behave by laws? That is something of an alarming concept. What would an existence which was not governed by any laws be like? I would expect such a reality to be incredibly unstable; if there are no laws of any kind, you basically have bedlam... it would be impossible to predict what would happen, because there would be no causes. Even contradictions could be true, because the rejection of contradictions is itself a law. Now because our physical world is dependent on this grounding world, if that world were to be random, then this physical world would also be unstable, by consequence.

But this is not what is observed. So the very fact that we live in a world with fairly regular and dependable laws seems to indicate that this world is itself grounded in another world governed by laws (and thus physical). The same logic would apply to any world that other world was grounded into, ad infinitum. A possible conclusion then, seems to be that either there is no non-physical world, or else that world is entirely separate from anything even related in any metaphysical way to this world, since its instability would consequently spill into any world it had a relation to.

Since the subject of physical laws is matter / material, a consequence of this line of thinking would be that we are in fact material beings afterall (just not in the sense that mundane materialists might suppose) !

I have known several metaphysicians to personally hold this view, and I don't think I understood it until just recently, having stumbled onto it by accident.

What do all of you think of this concept?

[Subtle Traveler]

My current understanding is that physical and non-physical is all one thing. My experience is that it is the apparatus (e.g., body) that is different. Another way of pointing to this is: "the human is only a small part of who I am".

Overall, I see my physical self (a temporary strand) as an "extension" of my non-physical self (eternal, complex being) and my guidance (a component of the complex being). This works well for me. As William Buhlman often holds forth, the physical is only the thin, outer epidermis of total reality. This metaphor may be helpful here to those reading along.

With respect to science, our society is very dependent (e.g., because everyone has a biological brain) upon the materialist arguments, so I quietly disengage those that are grounded to the physical earth when debate arises (e.g., those of us that know from experience will understand). I have not found one that understands the non-locality of consciousness very well (e.g., at least well enough to conceptually understand).

One of my first experiences with non-physical occurred at the age of 15. In the experience a non-physical being revealed themselves to a couple of of us in the physical (e.g., we saw and experience the being with our physical eyes while the being hovered 4 to 8 feet off the ground). There were about 90 of us at this event. I know that I was in my body during the experience, because I had my arms around two friends on each side of me. I asked one of them if she saw the being, and she did not. However, another person two rows behind me did. I also know that I saw the being with my physical eyes because I covered them with my hands and the vision was out of view, and was there when I removed my hands (I was pretty smart for a 15 year old).

I am not a medium, but if you think about it, this is similar to how experienced mediums (for example Jamie Butler) see beyond the physical. The difference between Jamie and I? She is gifted with the skill, and I was given a singular experience. This defies not only the materialist argument, but also the beliefs of many OBE people and projectors who "think" that the physical and non-physical are two separate things. From experience, I can tell you that they are not. In my experience, the non-physical being (who was in a glowing light body formed like a physical body) wanted to be seen BUT only by a couple of us.

Finally, I decided to speak up here for this reason. I would not be too quick to draw up a bunch of laws or rules about the relationship between the physical and non-physical. The Universe has a lot of mystery built in purposely. However, maybe the discussion can help a few newer people here understand that to project, you really need to be using a different apparatus (e.g., the mind and not the biological brain). I also think that you present a decent question, so it deserves attention.

[Volgerle]

THis topic seems to reflect the philosophical discussion we know for ages, e.g. Descartes and his 'duality' (here's the material world - here's the spirit world and only few connections) vs. the ideas of idealism or monism.

I do not think that what we call non-physical does have to have the same rules or any rules we know. That does not mean that it has no rules/laws. I think it does. The highest reality creates sub-realties by using its own rules but the sub-realities also have their own rulesets and in this reality or from this you can create more sub-realities and sub-sub-realities and so on. Hence the analogy to digital programming.

Our minds cannot grasp the higher reality rulesets as long as we are here because according to this ruleset here we are not meant to have this capability. So for me it makes not a lot of sense to try to figure out the rulesets of the 'above' reality (most of which we call non-physical but only because of a false duality/dichotomy undertanding of all of reality) because it is futile, even our best scientists will never figure it out if you ask me.

[LightBeam]

If we forget about the terms "physical" and "non-physical" and call them all realities, things will get much simpler. Realities differ from one another by frequencies, thought responsiveness, stability, density, nature of collective energies, dominance of collective energies, etc. The multiverse is very complex, and with our limitations here we can only speculate. But one thing I know, experiencing a super slow energy reality like ours that require a vehicle in order to interact is rather unpleasant 

[Stillwater]

THis topic seems to reflect the philosophical discussion we know for ages, e.g. Descartes and his 'duality' (here's the material world - here's the spirit world and only few connections) vs. the ideas of idealism or monism.

Very much so. I tend to think one of the monisms is likely to be true. Either everything is immaterial, and materiality is an illusion, or everything is material. It is hard to grasp why there would be two cartesian substances.

I do not think that what we call non-physical does have to have the same rules or any rules we know.

I would tend to agree. I think the laws of this physical are determined from above, and the next existence it is nested inside is not at all bound to those laws (but probably its own set).

Our minds cannot grasp the higher reality rulesets as long as we are here because according to this ruleset here we are not meant to have this capability.

I agree, their rules could probably not be learned from this vantage point. But I am pressing a different question here- can we reason the fact that they must have rules at all? I am supposing we might do this, with my instability argument above.

[Stillwater]

If we forget about the terms "physical" and "non-physical" and call them all realities, things will get much simpler. Realities differ from one another by frequencies, thought responsiveness, stability, density,

I am familiar with the concepts of metaphysical "vibrating frequencies", and "density". I can't really make sense of them though... I wish I knew who originated these terms, since it would be easier to investigate the history of their usage. The concept of vibration of course applies fully to this physical existence, as everything is in constant pulsing motion, of some grade. But I am not convinced that frequency of motion corresponds to other realities... I have run into many assertsions that this is true, but haven't run into an argument for how we can know it to be true.

The multiverse is very complex, and with our limitations here we can only speculate.

For sure. And isn't it a grand time speculating! 

[LightBeam]

I am familiar with the concepts of metaphysical "vibrating frequencies", and "density". I can't really make sense of them though...

Well, if a character has negative destructive thoughts they cant tune into a reality that has a "higher" if you will energy quality. That is the simplest example I can think of.

[Stillwater]

My current understanding is that physical and non-physical is all one thing.

I think so too. It is all likely to be material in some form, or immaterial in some form. It is hard to explain how immaterial and material things would interact, in fact famously so.

With respect to science, our society is very dependent (e.g., because everyone has a biological brain) upon the materialist arguments, so I quietly disengage those that are grounded to the physical earth when debate arises (e.g., those of us that know from experience will understand).

Yeah, the mind very much appears to be an immaterial thing, because from the vantage point of this world only, there is no explaining why it can exist. There is no obvious way to cross the ontological gap of the material world, with a known set of properties, and first person awareness, which doesn't seem in any way related to any of those known properties. But interestingly, even if the mind is immaterial from the vantage point of this world, it may be material from the vantage point of another, as other worlds are not bound necessarily by these same material laws and properties!

I would not be too quick to draw up a bunch of laws or rules about the relationship between the physical and non-physical. The Universe has a lot of mystery built in purposely.

I agree, that from this vantage, very little can with certainty be learned about the other realities. But the question is, are there any self-evident truths, or very easily derived arguments about something we could deduce to be true of these other realities?

[Stillwater]

Well, if a character has negative destructive thoughts they cant tune into a reality that has a "higher" if you will energy quality. That is the simplest example I can think of.

This does seem to happen. It is the old "like-states attract like-states" argument of metaphysics. But I guess the question I was asking earlier, is if there is some way to pin this effect to the concept of vibration (I don't think there is), or if the connection is mainly a constant metaphor in common use.

[Nameless]

Personally I think it's a non-issue. What I mean by that is just because we haven't got it figured out doesn't mean the non-physical is anything other than an extension of what is (the things we commonly accept). I think our inner, outer and other realities/P/NP are just there and connected. What we call the NP is not a separate place, it's here, it's now.

It's like our eyes only being able to see so much of the color scale and our ears only being able to hear so many sound frequencies. We know there are other colors and sounds, we easily accept that. Those other colors and sounds do not belong to a different physical reality, they belong to this one. What I am saying is I think the NP belongs to this physical world or vice-verse. Some see it, hear it, feel it, live it, interact with it - some don't/can't. When we go to the NP we are just finally seeing what's there all along.

Anyway that's just how I see it from my own experience. Think of seeing a ghost (for those who have, haha). You see it doing something that apparently it has been doing since forever. Well, it didn't just start doing that because you became aware. It was already doing that when you became aware.

[Lumaza]

If we forget about the terms "physical" and "non-physical" and call them all realities, things will get much simpler. Realities differ from one another by frequencies, thought responsiveness, stability, density, nature of collective energies, dominance of collective energies, etc. The multiverse is very complex, and with our limitations here we can only speculate.

I agree completely with Lightbeam's comments here. I prefer to call these areas that we find ourselves in "other realms" or simply just "other" and I like to say they are occupied by "others" as well. I like Kurt Leland's names for these realms. He calls them "Otherwheres".

I have been to realms that were only "grids". I was a point of consciousness in those experiences, with no physical body at all. Unfortunately I still maintained the knowledge of my physical ruleset here on Earth and because of that I had an extremely hard time adjusting to my new "locale". I got a strong feeling "vertigo" just trying to get my bearings straight. The grid warbled all over the place and kept creating itself before my eyes. I had a feeling it was "infinite". It was "alien" to me. But I am sure it had a purpose or served a purpose to some "other".

On another adventure, I found myself in a area where the "others' there were using my own mind to create a suitable "atmosphere/setting" for me. I could see what they were doing and asked them to stop that and to show me their "reality". They finally did and it was awesome.

I have also found myself in situations where there is a physical ruleset akin to Earth. Well, I actually thought it was Earth, except for the fact that "I" didn't need to follow their ruleset and that led to "time out" of sorts.

I have found that if you maintain the mindset of a Human while in these areas, that you will still be limited by that mindset until you begin to see outside of it. I use the term often here "change your mindset, you will change your reality" and not only does this help you achieve success in this practice in general, as of having a successful OBE/shift in consciousness, but it also helps you once you are "there", wherever that "there happens to be.

But one thing I know, experiencing a super slow energy reality like ours that require a vehicle in order to interact is rather unpleasant  

It is, but it's necessary to the greater cause!  

[LightBeam]

 It is, but it's necessary to the greater cause!  

I know, I know. But every time I come back from a great trip, I'm like OMG what a difference  

Speaking about laws of other realities, one time I was in a very stable environment, I communicated with the residents and as I was walking around the court yard, I looked at one of the towers, I thought to change its look and at the moment I focused on changing it, I got kicked out of there and I found myself in a field and in the distance I saw the town. So, that reality was already established and the environment created according to the mutual agreement of the residents. Changing things that affected everyone was not permitted. There were some kind of energy barriers I guess. There are so many realities created by like minded characters continuing their existing in a less dense worlds without physical vehicles but still keeping the characteristics of their lives here as they knew them. And there is nothing wrong with that. You don't have to necessary shed the character the minute your physical body dies. We have eternity to experience whatever we please. Imagine when someone dies and discovers that they can fly, go to places instantly with a single thought, meet loved ones, there is no pain and suffering. It is only natural while the character is still strong to establish environments to continue this type of experience only without the limitations. I have seen so many of these realities. And of course there are so many that we cant even comprehend now what they look like and what kind of characters are there. It's important though to try to remove the veils of our human characters, ask to see more of the unknown and then you will have experiences that you wont even know how to explain with words or interpret them afterwords with your biological brain. All I know is that our existence is full with adventures now and beyond and for eternity. That's pretty exciting.  

[Subtle Traveler]

Stillwater (and everyone else) ... thanks for responding.

We can always deduce (e.g., biological brain) but experiencing is what takes practice (e.g., mind detached from brain) ... and with "focus" we can experience aspects of the vastness of total reality for ourselves. I liked the story above about the traveler (LightBeam) getting kicked out of a consensus reality - it demonstrates both the expansion and limits before us.

From my experience, we can do other things while in the physical - like interact with non-physical beings who can answer some of these questions for us. I am currently reading two books by Frank DeMarco (Rita's World) where he daily (in present day) has a 6 month conversation with friend, Rita Warren, who transitioned in 2008. It provides many answers to the process and questions that you have started in this thread. You may be interested in that ($6 in Kindle format for each book). DeMarco is the former editor and creator of Hampton Roads Publishing.

We are not stuck with the materialist viewpoint (this is one of the bigger lies of the physical). I also have to strongly disagree with many here that we cannot know about the non-physical (bad premise). We obviously do NOT understand all of it, but even non-physical beings have admitted that they do not understand all of it (see Miranon recordings at the Monroe Institute). However, we can understand elements or parts of it. Some truths (e.g., like the physical and non-physical are one thing) can be derived from these efforts.

One thing that I know for sure ... I cannot re-learn or remember or experience anything without non-physical help (e.g., guidance, higher self, other parts of me, past non-physical relationships). Therefore, to answer your posed question, I would hold forth that you will need to include a continued discussion about guidance here. My own premise (bias, if you prefer) is that answers will not arrive without that kind of help, but many here also have lots of 'experience' with that.

[Thread Killer]

At this point I would like to ask you if you had read this article in The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/10/silicon-valley-is-obsessed-with-a-false-notion-of-reality/503963/
                                                                                   

[Thread Killer]

"But the question is, are there any self-evident truths, or very easily derived arguments about something we could deduce to be true of these other realities?"
  As for self evident truths...no. If it were self evident, the question need not be posed. I find it difficult to come up with some objective (as in applies to all in all situations) evidence for any other reality. Given what would currently be acceptable as evidence, we shall continue to grasp at straws. Only when subjective experience becomes a lynchpin in some new model or conception of our existence will we, finally, have traction to get to those answers. Materialism rules!...well,...not really...

[Lumaza]

At this point I would like to ask you if you had read this article in The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/10/silicon-valley-is-obsessed-with-a-false-notion-of-reality/503963/
 

I read this when it first came out. It sounds like a great "plot" for a movie! 

Silicon Valley is working on all kinds of things to further mankind (Transhumanism). But they seem to be choosing the "tech" route, instead of the "it's already inside of you" and you can access it with a little work route. I can understand though in this "push button NOW generation". They are even working on creating robots that they seem to think would be "autonomous" as in having a consciousness of their own. I don't think they quite grasp how "consciousness" works. But then again, neither do I. So, it will be interesting to see what they can come up with.

[Lumaza]

"But the question is, are there any self-evident truths, or very easily derived arguments about something we could deduce to be true of these other realities?"
 As for self evident truths...no. If it were self evident, the question need not be posed. I find it difficult to come up with some objective (as in applies to all in all situations) evidence for any other reality. Given what would currently be acceptable as evidence, we shall continue to grasp at straws. Only when subjective experience becomes a lynchpin in some new model or conception of our existence will we, finally, have traction to get to those answers. Materialism rules!...well,...not really...

I have two very strong self evident truths that I have arrived at. The first is that wherever we find ourselves, there is "Structure" of some kind. Not structures like "Architecture". I mean structure as a ruling enterprise/entity, whatever you wish to call it, that governs what can and can be done there. I used to think those rules were self imposed, but due to a couple of years of "observing", I have found that there is indeed a purpose for everything that happens in this and any other realms we may find ourselves in. Many of my adventures, during my Phase sessions" that is, will begin with a self initiated "imaginative" visual. But soon I find that this has changed into something not of my own makings and is has now completely taken on a life of it's own. My actual OBEs begin in the RTZ and quickly lead to some "Otherwhere", where I experience whatever it was I was chosen to see at that time.

The second self evident truth is that we/I am "relearning/remembering" something we/I once already knew. That truth comes from breaking through the veil and barriers of this physical existence and physical mind set, towards being able to "see" again. This has all occurred through the aid of some form of "guidance".
Just to quote part of Subtle Traveler's post here "One thing that I know for sure ... I cannot re-learn or remember or experience anything without non-physical help (e.g., guidance, higher self, other parts of me, past non-physical relationships)."

[Thread Killer]

"I have two very strong self evident truths that I have arrived at."
...And I would would never challenge their validity...on a personal, subjective level. The point I was trying to bring us to is the larger cultural acceptance of our subjective experience. When I say self evident, I was speaking at the (forgive me for using this word) paradigm level that lens our understandings of what is possible. We are still using a 500yr old mechanistic metaphor upon which many of our current assumptions are based. This is the dominant narrative upon which we base what is possible or accepted as "evidence"

[Lumaza]

"I have two very strong self evident truths that I have arrived at."
...And I would would never challenge their validity...on a personal, subjective level. The point I was trying to bring us to is the larger cultural acceptance of our subjective experience. When I say self evident, I was speaking at the (forgive me for using this word) paradigm level that lens our understandings of what is possible. We are still using a 500yr old mechanistic metaphor upon which many of our current assumptions are based. This is the dominant narrative upon which we base what is possible or accepted as "evidence"

True. At the moment they are just "personal evidence".

So, for everyone that is reading this, here is question to you. Have you experienced some kind of adventure/scenario whereas in that "realm", you found some kind of "structure"? Whether this structure revealed itself in a "time out" or "ban" that you experienced due to something you did or whether you just were "shown", in some way shape or form, that there was a "ruling" force that needed everyone there, including you, to abide with.

I know that's not subjective evidence. But if enough people have indeed experienced something akin to this and that that became their personal truths or as you called it "self evident" truth, than we can begin to at least see "common ground" here.

[Nameless]

True. At the moment they are just "personal evidence".

So, out of everyone that is question to people that are reading this. How many of you have experienced some kind of adventure whereas in this "realm" you found some kind of "structure"? Whether this structure revealed itself in a "time out" or "ban" that you experienced in a realm due to something you did or whether you just were "shown" in some way shape or form that there was a "ruling" force that needed you and others there had to abide with.

I know that's not subjective evidence. But if enough people have indeed experienced something akin to this and that that became their personal truths or as you called it "self evident" truth, than we can begin to at least see "common ground" here.

Most definitely. I have often questioned the belief/theory that we are the ones creating our reality. I'm sure we do  create our circumstances and probably much of our reality. But from my own subjective perspective with what I have seen and experienced there is structure and a ruling class beyond.

[LightBeam]

I agree with Nameless and Lumaza, that we create our experiences, but lets not forget that we think of ourselves as individual spirits, however, we constantly interact with other points of consciousness at all time that they do as well create. Unless we want to isolate ourselves in some raw energy area, we are in a pool of consciousness. Therefore the collective energy create the structure of each area (realm, dimension, etc). There are enough accounts of very similar experiences indeed including my own where we travel to stable worlds, interact with entities and other characters that are not just created out of raw energy before our eyes strictly from our thoughts.

[EscapeVelocity]

Agreed as to the existence of 'structure' and 'organization' and a 'ruleset'.

That was nicely expressed LightBeam- I also sense that we are within a possibly infinite sea of consciousness, aware of multiple contact points and slowly expanding that perspective through our experiences. Over the last several years, I have been introduced to several new ways to be aware of these contact points: Imprints, knowing, telepathy on more than a few levels, bi-location...

The appearance of structure seems to emerge different from PR in the variability of environments, energy-based and highly thought-responsive and the conformance to rulesets that supersede that of PR but still retain limitations as in personal areas versus consensus areas. The similarity of so many of our experiences lends credence to the idea of structure, even though we are likely far from fully understanding it much less describing it through language.

The idea of organization currently means for me the co-ordination of experiences/lessons with some kind of guides/teachers/instructors. They may be independent consciousnesses or just aspects of my higher self or larger soul...the exact definition is not important to me, I am obviously being taught many things, or 'remembering' as Lumaza rightly puts it. And since some form of graduated instruction is taking place, then I think it is reasonable that the organization continues well beyond this; what else would it be? Randomness? Although it sure feels like chaos theory predominates at times, lol.

Finally, some kind of 'ruleset' does exist, maybe our PR-based physics is a sub-set of the NP one. The NP ruleset certainly gives you more free-reign within the NP environments, you just have to be fearless and use it. You can fly, you can pass through walls or just lean against them; it is your choice so long as you understand it is all energy. What you do have to learn is when certain actions are allowed and when they are not.

Great discussion, great thoughts all around.

[LightBeam]

I think it is reasonable that the organization continues well beyond this; what else would it be? Randomness? Although it sure feels like chaos theory predominates at times, lol.

Nice post, EV. I wouldn't like to think that it could be all randomness. We are free though to travel to different places, stay longer somewhere and contribute to the collective consciousness structure, or create our own little environments from the unlimited raw energy, tune into other characters of our larger spirit and experience things in more  controlled environments (like this slow one), or blend in the highest energy level (if you can reach it) and experience the oneness. But in all that, I think there is order and laws, otherwise it wouldn't make sense and the purpose of it all would be lost.

[Lumaza]

 First off, excellent posts to all those that have chimed in. I didn't know where this thread was going to lead, but I like this direction it has now taken. 

So, since we can now agree that there is some kind of structure "there". Can we also agree that we are being lead to that conclusion for some greater good?

I see how we are a very minute part of the population that does indeed "consciously" experience this. The first times could be understood as purely by intent. But what about now when it has gotten so much deeper for some of us, the regular experiencers?

Could it be we have been "chosen" to open our eyes now so that we can become a part of that "structure" some day. That statement isn't ego talking. That is my personal observation.
We have all seen in this reality here how the pupil becomes the teacher somewhere down the line. If not for a greater purpose, then why are we seeing what we are, when so many others around us are just consciously living and experiencing in this physical realm here? There has to be a reason why we have chosen or have been chosen to "consciously" exist in these dual, no dual is not the right word, multi layers that we experience on a regular basis.
.

[LightBeam]

  So, since we can now agree that there is some kind of structure "there". Can we also agree that we are being lead to that conclusion for some greater good?

When this structure gets shaken, we can hold it from collapsing. Hopefully