Proof Of OBE - and/or - How to Win 1 Milion $

[Frank]

I enjoy a hearty chuckle, thank you.

Yours,
Frank

[michael]

you make a valid point....as a projector myself i would love to prove it but like yourself have never had the ability to control an OBE in the real time zone....and it often ;puzzled me as to why for example Sylvan muldoon did not attempt exactly the sort of experiment you suggest..Ive tried that in years past with the Oxford institute of psyophysical research with NO success....as you are aware Robert monroe tried this with Charles tart and did not succeed although he did perceive a non target environment at the experimental area..ie a woman speaking to her husband in the corridor...we have to explain why it does not happen..I could give a lot of reasons which are basically a waste of time since they will always be legitimately described as "excuses"..but on the other hand i would not judge others as to why they do not attempt it..I have 100% confidence in the sincerity of robert bruce etc...he's spent years serving folks on this an previous sites with true humility and voluntary ( sometimes thnakless)service..( unlike a lot we could mention) ...but an interesting aspect of all this is explained in Rudolf Steiner's "Theosophy" as to why psychic events tend not to be "provable"..as i say it sounds an "excuse" but that doesnt make it necessarily invalid....but your main point as to why OBE's have never been proved is of course a valid one and I totally accept it....
michael

[Adrian]

Greetings amir_noma!

Most amusing  - I guess the weekend is a good time for lighter posts http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Only $1M though? We have someone else on this forum who is apparently being offered $21.5M!

People who offer these rewards are usually after public sensationalism  - I would suggest that no serious spiritually minded person would ever entertain such a notion.

Oh, and one more thing  - accusing Robert Bruce of being a charlatan is not the way to be taken seriously or make friends on these forums.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[amir_noma]

Dear friends.

Reading your replies i have 3 points which i must make clear:

1. My "Accusation" of Robert Bruce should not be taken literaly. It was, and has been successfully made in order to capture your attention. I hold the Greatest respect for Robert Bruce, and have looked up to him since i have found about the existance of OBE.

2. As for the "Prize Money", the reason "Randy The Amazing" (Stage name if you do not know of him) Has founded a fund, which will give 1 Million Dollars to whome ever proves the existance of psychic phenomena. It is not a hoax but a stimulate. If someone truly can proove it he would logically have little trouble of earning some money this way, besides money to be made by writing books and such.

3. As for the possibilty that because of the human mind experiments per experimentaion of psychic phenomena cannot give positive resaults. It maybe true but, considering Bruce to be the most experienced projector i have yet to hear of, i would, and am expecting him to face this challenge, and perhaps change the way almost half of the population of this planet beleive about psychic phenomena in general and Obe in particular.

                                                                              Amir Noma

[michael]

yes Amir..you make another valid point...as i said if i could control a real time OBE I would be the first to attempt randi's challenge....ethically one could donate the 1 million to some legitimate charity whatever..but regarding this one can only decide these things for oneself..plenty of reasons can be given why folk dont volunteeer for this..we can only make out own decisions...bearing in mind there are mediums and psychics by the thousands if not millions i wonder why they dont apply..i have seen for example transfiguration mediums..totally genuine and so on..where i have seen spirit beings "materialize"..in front of me..I have seen many spirits myself...but this sort of thing cannot be brought on line at one's will for many reasons...as i say if i could do it i would....
michael

[Adrian]

Greetings Amir_noma!

I can see where you are coming from.

But the sponsor of this prize might well be making exactly the same mistake as other many people who issue these challenges, and that is by thinking that that the people with these abilities, and are being challenged to prove them, actually want to prove something - e.g. to be a public phenomena.

If that is indeed the thinking, then the sponsors have got things very wrong IMO. Most, if not all of these disciplines are highly spiritual and personal, and often steps along the way to much greater heights where material things such as cash are completely meaningless. There are people with powers and abilities that would make the general public (for want of a better expression) truly amazed, and such people could, if they chose to do so, become overnight sensations. But most such people would never entertain such a notion, and the same goes for most people who are involved in most, if not all highly spiritual pursuits. There have been exceptions of course - Uri Geller comes to mind, but I am not sure of his spirituality or motives.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

Agreed, Adrian, it's just SO darned funny how some people can only relate to the world in terms of money. Maybe the originator of this thread is genuine in what they say. But, I can't help laughing. I'm sorry.

I just have this vision of obe'ing and the moment I do so, "Randy The Amazing" steps out like some traffic cop with with a speed-gun.

Yours,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings Frank!

quote:Originally posted by Frank:

I just have this vision of obe'ing and the moment I do so, "Randy The Amazing" steps out like some traffic cop with with a speed-gun.

Yours,
Frank

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>  A speed-gun in one hand, and a cheque for a million bucks in the other  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

LOL

Today is probably the biggest chuckle-day I've had for some time.

Thank you.

Yours,
Frank

[MJ-12]

ss

[Nita]

Hello Amir
  I know that Robert Bruce is not a charlatan. I heard about his book and decided to astral project to see if he could really astral project. I met him on the astral plane and we talked about a lot of stuff. He told me to write him, and then yelled at me "Remember, Remember, Remember."  I couldn't believe that he had yelled at me but I did write him.
  I have also heard about the Great Randi and all of the people he has discredited by setting things up so he won't lose his million dollars. He is not the way to prove anything. Houdini had a sincere belief in things and I can respect him and his efforts. I know people who have been humilated and set up by the Great Randi. I wish you luck in your efforts Amir and it does make for a good laugh.
  Nita

[Mobius]

Hi amir_noma

I know what you are going through,but when you gather some more info on it & predesessors of the OBE cause you will find much debunking & ridicule by the science & religion establishments,the one time they do stand together.

We covered this topic in "Search for Osama",check it out for some background on why people don't do it.While I know I can OBE & can RV to a certain extent,trying to get a correct answer when the scenario is all stacked against you & real time is pretty hard.I've done real time quite a few times but have no real control over it.Like Adrian said only $1 million,CTG labs was offering a cut of $21.5 million pound,but wait there's more.To re-hash a few points made back in the Osama topic.If you have this ability & money is what it's all about for you,why only 1 million on a gameshow or lottery,why not work the stock exchange for millions & billions without anyone knowing but a few.Sounds like it's an invitation to the chopping block if you ask me.

What we are talking about here is something that could potentially cripple all pre-established science & religious beliefs,do you think they would stand back & let that happen?Lots of money we are talking about here,just look around you at any westernised city in the world,notice that most of the positions on the top of hills (prime real-estate)are usually churches or have been owned by the church? They are not silly,they silently & tax freely amass fortunes & very much depend on NO-ONE ever succeeding that test.

All the best mate,good journeys

Mobius

[cainam_nazier]

It has been my experience that the more you learn and can do the more you feel the responsability of the knowlage.  

michael
"as a projector myself i would love to prove it but like yourself have never had the ability to control an OBE in the real time zone"

It is highly possible that after you are able to control real time zone OBE's you would loose the desire to make such an attempt.  It maybe at that point when you realize just exactly what it is that you can do and what it means.  

I find it often very rare that you hear about those that are "truely great" in any such persuits.  And when you do hear about then it is not on the regular news medium.  And if you hear about them at all it is only because they managed to get a book published, and they have often done so not for thier own selfishness but because they are trying to get the word out and help those that are like them but have no where else to turn for help.

Like Mr. Bruce putting out PPSD.  It seems, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, to be aimed at people who are aware of what is happening to them but have been able to find little or no help on the subject.  So where does a person go for help?  Thier local doctor?  No, they would think you mad and try to get you counseling, or worse.  The church then maybe?  They only investigate a handfull of such issues and thier help is often motivated by money or power.  The common person has little resources for help in such matters.

And honestly if some one was putting a book out on the subject only to make money do you think that it would only run $13.50 for a autographed copy.  No it would be closer to $20 or $30.  Go look for an autographed copy of a Steven King book or Anne Rice.

"The more balanced some one becomes the more they see both sides of the story."

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

The problem with scientists is that they are, for the most part, well and truly entrenched in the physical universe by their education and careers. They surely cannot and dare not contemplate the possibililty of parallel dimensions, planes, realms etc., because it would against everything they know and their careers, and would cause a real life crisis for them, and everything they have believed and understood. So they can take the easy way out by going into denial, and all of their tests and experiments, rather than being objective, are always designed to disprove anything considered to be paranormal or metaphysical. Accordingly, they hang on to all evidence that suits them, and discard everything that does not, or dismiss it as an experimental error etc..

Psychologists appear to be among the worst for this in my humble opinion, because they have the most to lose - or so they apparently think.  Psychologists are also usually respected people, and so the general public believes them without question. And then there are such things as space travel - which costs trillions of dollars - no scientist or government is going to accept the fact that out of body you can travel around the universe instantly, or that space travel is really a complete a waste of time because it is an illusion of the physical universe. I really can't see the point in even trying to convince these people - does it even matter what they think? If they do not or cannot yet believe, or at least be capable of being open minded, then they are clearly not ready to accept at least the possibility of these alternative realities, much less investigate them further.

Also, how can higher Astral travel ever be proved, when one is dealing with entities and an environment that is fluid, and beyond physical description and comprehension. The best possibilty would be to prove OBE's in the real time zone by visiting somewhere and describing it accurately. But even that is not conclusive of course, because the travel is still in the lowest part of the Astral planes, and subject to Astral laws such as reality fluctuations.

At the final analysis - why bother? The vast majority of the human race is clearly not ready for that knowledge yet, although as time goes by more and more people will be become ready, and will accept the reality of other planes, but this process can only occur in conformity with Divine will, and not by human scientific experimentation. It is encumbent on everyone to assist true seekers to the extent they can do, but not enforce their experiences or opinions on others, and not by means of money.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Grenade01]

Hey
I can project in the real time zone

Ill do it for a 1.1 million
It would be a piece of cake !!!

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[Grenade01]

Just kidding
Lol
Blah

Heres what would probably happen to me
I would get out
find the piece of paper
and marvel in how its shiny and illuminating white light
then Id get confused by my 360 degree vision and end up on a different floor of the building
and then forget what I was doing and inspect a shadow because it looks 3d.

lol...Astral projection is like the Ultimate A. D. D.

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[michael]

Hi Adrian......regarding your last post i have to disagree...scientists and psychologists are in my opinion perfectly entitled to ask for proof...there are so many charlatans as you know in the psychic field..Ive seen dozens in my time and only a few who could produce the goods..the point is that we have to explain why those of us who cannot control real time projections are faced with that difficulty..fluctuation of most if not all astral projection environments is a good enough reason..those of us who do project know that we are not hallucinating etc...astral projection is about the only subjective spiritual experience that cannot be doubted when you experience it..understanding and controlling it is a different matter....maybe in the course of spiritual evolution  more people will develop the chakras etc enough to control it properly and then proof will come..so far this is not the case.....

[Adrian]

Greetings Michael!

I think you misundersand my point - or at least I didn't get to what I wanted to say - and that is - why should we try to prove anything to scientists?

Why does it matter whether they believe it or not?

Science is all about the physical, material, mundane world, and that is the level at which scientists work. There is nothing wrong with that of course.

But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.

Trying to prove OBE to a psychologist, is about as much use as trying to prove the laws of relativity to an Architect or whatever.  Why bother?

The person that has everything to gain is the person who is actually experiencing the OBE or other spiritual experience, and which experience is deeply personal.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Atlas]

What *I* am getting a chuckle out of is watching all these people come up with all these excuses about how not ONE PERSON out of the 4 billion in the world can come forward and claim one of these rewards. But we've already been over all this in the Osama thread so I'm not going to hash it all up again here....

>>But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.<<

I agree with this statement in terms of the astral dimensions and higher, but if the real time zone exists, as many claim it does, then it should be EASILY provable scientifically.

Atlas

[Adrian]

Originally posted by Adrian:
Greetings Atlas!

quote:Originally posted by Atlas:

>>But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.<<

I agree with this statement in terms of the astral dimensions and higher, but if the real time zone exists, as many claim it does, then it should be EASILY provable scientifically.

Atlas

In my view, and that of many, the "real time zone" is still the Astral, albeit the lowest part where it merges with the physical, and is accordingly subject to the same laws. At best this area of the Astral is a reflection of the physical.

Many people have proved OBE based upon these factors, but conventional science will not, in my view, accept anything less than the sort of proof that will be almost impossible to provide, due to the physical universe emphasis of conventional science.That is the difference between science as it pertains to the physical universe, and that pertaining to the Astral realms and beyond.

I really do not think there is any point trying to satisfy conventional science or medicine on the subject of OBE, alternative dimensions of reality, and all of the spiritual implications of same. Those that are genuinely interested, for all the right reasons can discover the other dimensions of reality in the same way that everyone else does - by seeking and experiencing it for themselves.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[jucafern]

To all the OOB community
I honestly believe, based on my own experiences, that RB's "Astral Dynamics" conveys a wealth of knowledge that, once put in practice, can take you to a "separate reality".

What I am not sure enough whether this other reality is "within/outside" our brain, reason why I need to share with the forum what I just have read about this possibility ... and thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide.

This is what I read ...

************************************************************************************************************
In Stephen Laberge's book  "Exploring the World of Dreaming" (Stephen is a PhD from Stanford University, whose doctoral thesis dealt with Lucid Dreaming), he writes (sometimes using statements from other authors such as P. Tholey) the following:

" A second body is an unnecessary assumption based on a naïve epistemology"

" OOBEs often give us the compelling impression that we have a second, different and separated body: the physical, earthly body and a more ethereal one, the astral body.

In fact, a person experiences only ONE BODY ... and this is not the physical body, but a BODY IMAGE, that is the brain's representation of the physical body. The BODY IMAGE is what we experience anytime we feel embodied, whether in our physical, dream or astral body.

Thus, once you have fully relaxed and feel that your physical body is in a profound state of sleep paralysis, remember that the body image you are currently experiencing as a paralyzed physical body, cannot move because sensory information is telling your brain that your physical body is motionless.

When you go deeper into a REM (Rapid Eyes Movement) sleep, all sensory information is cutoff and there will be no information (except memory) indicating that your body is still in the position that it was before, reason why now you are free to feel movement of your BODY IMAGE without any contradiction from your sensory systems: your BODY IMAGE can move without reference to the actual position of your physical body, as it naturally does in dreams.

Simply imagine that your BODY IMAGE can move again: imagine that you are somewhere other than sleeping in bed and ... once you experience that your BODY IMAGE (now, your DREAM BODY), is out of bed, you will not longer feel the sensations from your paralyzed physical body.

As soon as you step out of bed, remember that you are moving in your dream body and that everything around you is a dream thing too: EVERYTHING YOU SEE IS YOUR DREAM".
************************************************************************************************************

Cheers.

jucafern

[MJ-12]

James Randi is the sole judge of his reward, hence why no one has won. Send in a neutral third party and watch him run away.

Here are a few links that might be of interest.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/psyzone/winston.htm

and

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/index.html

oh and...

http://www.victorzammit.com/challenge.html

[kifyre]

Great links! Thanks! Who says there's no proof:

(taken from the above links)

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter16.html

Mark

[Adrian]

Greetings MJ-12!

quote:Originally posted by MJ-12:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/index.html

This is a really excellent site - I am so impressed I have added it to the forums links pages http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Thank you!

With best regards,

Adrian.

[MJ-12]

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