If the Bible and Jesus is not "real", who is??

[Narrow Path]

Nice post.

One thing to remember though is that fundamentalist Islam is HELL BENT on destroying us. Do you remember what happend two years ago this day? Have you seen the newspapers and Bin Laden as he says that this is only the beginning? Have you heard how Arafat claims to not step down until he is "killed" by the infidels.

WE ARE IN A HOLY WAR AND MOST HERE IN THE STATES DONT REALIZE IT. CHRISTIANS IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO UNITE AND SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENT AND THIS COUNTRY AS THE FREEDOMS OF THIS GREAT LAND ARE PROTECTED FROM FALSE RELIGONS AND MURDERERS. UNITE IN CHRIST AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT.

[eeb]

How can wars be holy?

[Mustardseed]

I think you are way out in left field here my friend. Most likely not even on the field at all. You seem to be forgetting the scriptures and the admonition to love your enemy!!!, and by the way who is the "we" are you aligning yourself with, a worldly government or Christ. I see you as nothing more than a hypocrite sprouting out hate mongering and couldnt disagree with you more. Your USA is no righteous nation under God but just like all the other unrighteous systems of man and in direct opposition to the LOVE of God. This is what I was trying to say in my posts but you are not listening, you are so full of yourself. You and I are miles apart so it is hard for me to see we are reading the same Bible.[]What is going on in your head???What is all that stupidity about Holy War ,are you out of you freaking mind?? ....This is just unbelievable, and you are such a reproach to the cause of Christ. Dont you see it!!!Nope I guess you dont you are blissfully unaware of your own insanity, and the scripture haqs come true "that blindness in part has come opon Isreal". You should be soo ashamed and you will be. Remember that you will have to give account for every word one day.
This is so sad.
Regards Mustardseed

[Soulfire]

I can only speak for myself here:

My "problems" with the Bible all originate from taking what it sais at face value.  As Beth has been discussing, maybe I am missing the whole point of the Bible by reading it this way.  A few examples:

1) I do not believe God was ever "Jealous".
2) I do not believe God sanctioned and incited wars.
3) I do not believe God "chose" the jewish people to be more special than everyone else and only became interested in the rest of us because the jewish people supposedly "failed" God.
4) I do not believe God ever desired or asked for blood sacrifices.
5) I do not believe God "punishes" children and grandchildren for the "sins" of their fathers.  In fact I do not believe God "punishes" anyone. I think he offers us endless oportunities to choose to learn and grow - there is a huge difference.
6) I do not believe that God requires us to "worship" Jesus as God and accept the ritual sacrifice in order to be "saved".
7) Related to #5, I do not believe God sends us to Hell to suffer for eternity to punish us for failing to fulfill #6 above.  I think if we go to Hell it is because we send ourselves there by a variety of means.

I think there is a lot of truth in the Bible even at the literal level, but I also think there have been parts added or altered by men that deliberately attempt to mislead and control people.  As Beth has pointed out, there may be much more truth in the Bible that is beyond my ability to extract.  Maybe some or even all of my "problems" with the Bible are due to my own ignorance.  But if this is true, despite many years of sincerely trying to study the Bible and be a Christian (with focus on God and not the church), and despite my many prayers for guidance by the Holy Spirit, I was unable to accept many parts of what is written in it at the level that I was capable of understanding.

I have no problems with Jesus whatsoever, although I do not "worship" him as God.  I respect everything he stands for, and I love him for what he did for the world.  I try to live my life in a way that reflects the love he taught us.   According to a literal interpretation of the Bible however that is not enough to "save" me.  I really do not care, because I am not doing it in order to be "saved" or to score rewards in "heaven".  I am doing it because I believe it is right and it brings me joy in my day to day life.  []

--Soulfire

[Tab]

The only true books are those that claim wisdom through revealed truths and not through anthropomorphic history. The Vedas themselves may have exoterically been nothing but tales of anthropomorphized gods, but with the upanishads and the vedanta the introspective true meanings are put forth.
Real religion is about philosophy in existance, not mythical deities.

[Narrow Path]

quote:I think you are way out in left field here my friend. Most likely not even on the field at all. You seem to be forgetting the scriptures and the admonition to love your enemy!!!, and by the way who is the "we" are you aligning yourself with, a worldly government or Christ. I see you as nothing more than a hypocrite sprouting out hate mongering and couldnt disagree with you more. Your USA is no righteous nation under God but just like all the other unrighteous systems of man and in direct opposition to the LOVE of God. This is what I was trying to say in my posts but you are not listening, you are so full of yourself. You and I are miles apart so it is hard for me to see we are reading the same Bible.What is going on in your head???What is all that stupidity about Holy War ,are you out of you freaking mind?? ....This is just unbelievable, and you are such a reproach to the cause of Christ. Dont you see it!!!Nope I guess you dont you are blissfully unaware of your own insanity, and the scripture haqs come true "that blindness in part has come opon Isreal". You should be soo ashamed and you will be. Remember that you will have to give account for every word one day.
This is so sad.
Regards Mustardseed

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/

No my friend you are in left field.

Read the Book of Revelation. You are a believer or not. Make up your mind. The war will not always be against Israel. Liberals like yourself are keeping the Truth of the Bible from being seen by this country.

Matthew 10

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Revelation 6
4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

Revelation 2
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Be prepared for the persecution.

[LA FORET MAUVE]

Allanon, i think moderators of this forum don't allow fundamentalist making their "go to war !" screams on this forum.
You are a fundamentalist.
You are calling us for a "holy war".
You want people to make war.

quote:

WE ARE IN A HOLY WAR AND MOST HERE IN THE STATES DONT REALIZE IT. CHRISTIANS IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO UNITE AND SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENT AND THIS COUNTRY AS THE FREEDOMS OF THIS GREAT LAND ARE PROTECTED FROM FALSE RELIGONS AND MURDERERS. UNITE IN CHRIST AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT.

quote:

Obviously you're not learning anything there. YOU ARE TOTALLY WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS TIME. You'd better go out for a touristic travel in a muslim country, that would be a more rich experience to confront your beliefs and other's. What you are doing here is cowardise.

[Gandalf]

Liberals like yourself are keeping the Truth of the Bible from being seen by this country
---------------------------
CHRISTIANS IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO UNITE AND SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENT AND THIS COUNTRY AS THE FREEDOMS OF THIS GREAT LAND ARE PROTECTED FROM FALSE RELIGONS AND MURDERERS. UNITE IN CHRIST AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT.
--------------------------------------------------

Narrow paths blinkered world view becomes apparant by his statements.
Notice also how he assumes by the above statements that everyone on the forum is from the United States.
Actually, this is an international forum (founded in Australia by Robert Bruce).

Douglas

[Mohamed]

"The Koran seems just a adaption of the old testament with a bit of christianity and person worship thrown in."

I am sorry my friend, but you have been misinformed.  I believe a new thread is in order here, a thread that will show you that what is in the Quran, can not be found in the Bible, and what is in the Quran is logical as it is truthful (in a scientific point of veiw).  It might take me a while to make this thread, I am pretty sure I have a copy of it on another forum.

[Mustardseed]

I would be open to discuss this with you Mohamed. Salam aleikum allah akbar.

[Mohamed]

Wa 'aleikum es salam (and peace be upon you as well)

It's always great to have someone to discuss such things with.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Why must only one religion and set of writings be true? Why can't all religions and texts hold part of the truth?

quote:"By their fruits ye shall know them, a good tree bears good fruit a bad tree bears bad fruit".

Does it matter where the tree grew, what soil it used for its nutrients, or whether the water fell from the sky or was drawn from a river as long as the tree produces good fruit? Would you destroy a tree that bares good fruit simply because it grew in another part of the world or used a different kind of soil than what you are use to? Or would you not like to bring that tree into your own garden so you can enjoy it's fruits all the time and have it close at hand?

[Forgotten Flame 13]

Am I missing something here?
When did the jews fail god?
And when did god become jealous?

[Mustardseed]

If the Bible is "fake" (which I do not believe), how about all the other writings. The Koran seems just a adaption of the old testament with a bit of christianity and person worship thrown in. The vedas seem purely mythologic and the book of the dead ...well one could go on and on. Why is the Bible always targeted. I am a great believer in the statement "tell me who your enemies are and I will tell who you are" . The Bible make claims that no other book does and Jesus made statements no other did. This could be why people are so hell bent on discrediting it, at least to me this is very suspect. Are you Beth and Robert and probably most moderators saying that one can only trust what one self has seen and experienced?. If this is the case would we not all be like the farmer who was told what a giraffe looked like and said "nope there just aint no such thing, cause I havnt seen it" or the guy who did not believe Europe existed because "he had not been there". I still believe that it is the inspired living Word of God, passed down through the ages by inspired men and women of God maybe translated and possibly changed but being alive it lives on even today and the spirit of what it teaches is the same as it was then. I understand that this is believed  "by faith", a choice my choice, but I see nothing in your combined writings yet to persuade me otherwise or convince me that this could not have happened. You are still talking and I am very willing to listen and hear you out. I see no dark conspiracy or mass control allthough I do realise the scriptures has been twisted and continues to be twisted to suit individuals churches money and power hungry individuals and whole contries. Think about Bush going to church holding a bible that states "love your enemies do good to them that hate you and pray for those who dispitefully use you" and then sending kids to war killing and being killed. That is however his choice and not the words of the bible. When Jesus was asked how one could recognize a false prophet he said "By their fruits ye shall know them, a good tree bears good fruit a bad tree bears bad fruit". I believe IT IS POSSIBLE thatpeople reject the words in the Bible becourse they do not want to submit to anything except themselves. They have been lifted up in pride. Lucifer went that way, he did not want to be the light bearer, but wanted to be the light. Pride pure and simple pride. This does not however minimise astral projection and trying to find the deeper meanings in in life or the Bible . The Bible is chuck full of OBEs apparitions flying saucers, ghosts spirits etc. But it is also a measuring stick for right and wrong. It teaches that whatsoever is done in love is right and lawful. Whatsoever is done for selfish gain,  pride jealosy etc is wrong. But I think that is the way we all are we would rather go our own way do our own thing so we can pat ourselves on the back and say we did it. The Bible says that "no flesh shall glory in His presence". I see a lot of "glorying" here and among poeople in general both in and out of the church, glorying in personal acomplishment , education, opinion theories etc. This is just my personal opinion and not meant to condem anyone or make anyone feel bad. Sorry if it does. With all due respect to all.
Kind regards Mustardseed