Judge sentences own son to die for anothers crime

[xander]

Your adherence to dogma has rendered you incapable of knowing God. I assure you, the myth of your jesus and jehovah are far to limited to fully embrace much less comprehend god.

You have decieved yourself. You have allowed delusions projected from your own ego to become the image of god.

You have been seduced by Chronozon.

Xander

[Narrow Path]

Chronzon is a scary cat indeed.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/chronozo.htm

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path

Chronzon is a scary cat indeed.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/chronozo.htm

I'm talking about the entity spoken of in enochian magic. not some idiot cartoon.

Xander

[Passionate-fool]

Allright, since i'm NP's best friend and he can no longer defend himself i'll have to say somthing.  I love you xander so please don't get offended.

quote: Your adherence to dogma has rendered you incapable of knowing God.

It is that very dogma that allows even the most simple of people to understand God's nature.  Not just the mental elite.

quote:I assure you, the myth of your jesus and jehovah are far to limited to fully embrace much less comprehend god.

I assure you, Jesus and Jehovah are no myth.  Have you seen the death of Jesus Christ on the cross in the astral?  Have you knelt before the foot of the throne and felt God's awesome prescence thru a lucid dream?  NP has seen the former and I have seen the latter.  I am not saying this to sound arrogant.  I am simply stateing our personal experiences.  NP and I have had other spiritual realm experiences outside of Christ as well.  None of them have held the Power that
was in Christ.  The Power that assures you that you are most definatly not God, but God loves you just the same anyway.  It is that Infinite Love made possible thru Jesus, that convinces you God is God.  You feel the impossibility of ever returning that Love properly.  The feeling of it is almost to me like being struck dumb.  You point your mind at the the thought of it as a possibility and the next thing you know you are on your knees in utter awe.  These words really can't convey the experience good enough though.  

No one can comprehend God, That is why He is God.

quote:You have decieved yourself.

How has he decieved himself?  It is obvious that all you think he preaches is dogma.  I do too.  So, even if he were to be decieved, which I do not think he is, it would be by the dogma he follows.

On the other hand proponents of personal free-thought have no one to be decieved by but themselves. (I do not think free-thought is wrong per-se mind you.  I just believe that free thought under a power other than Jesus can be dangerous.)  Since they are here on this humble planet and not enlightened, ascended, master, or whatever else they wanna call it, they must be wrong somewhere.  Else they would ascend/attain/enter heaven/astral realm/nirvana whatever.  But wait!  Since we have the divine spark of god inside of us we are eternal and we'll just keep coming back till we get it right.  We'll suffer thru another life of searching, loneliness, and pain because we probably deserved it anyway.  We'll hope to do a bit better this time and carry that energy/essence/karma on.  So we can eventually go back to the image of god.  All the beautiful journey of god learning.

quote:You have allowed delusions projected from your own ego to become the image of god.

Wait?  Oops.  I actually think you got that one reversed.  Now, please don't get huffy with me.  He came to God thru loss of ego.  He takes the word of God's holy bible to get his image of God.  Its not from flights of fancy or sifting thru a whole bunch of different ideas picking up ones that "make sense to me", and since it makes sense to me and i'm a part of god it must be ok for now.  Until another idea comes along that makes more sense.  One always does.  It seems to me that the general concensus here is more at fault for getting the image of God from their own ego than NP is.

I'm sorry that I had to be a bit harsh with this one, but there have been so, so, many contradictions in my mind with what has been said by some people here.  You condemn NP for being narrow-minded, yet when he tells you that he used to be like you guys you ignore it.  He believed many of the same ideas that are here on this site.  Could he have done that with a narrow mind?  I don't know a guy more well versed in world religions.  I myself, used to believe in the very things I spoke of above.

Maybe his delivery isn't the best.  Yes, I know, he can come off very arrogant.  It's not really all arrogance though i've come to find out.  Its also un-shakable confidence.  So here he was, at this site, a veritable buffet of spiritual concepts and ideas, giving his two cents.  Trying to get people questioning, reasoning, and searching.  He wanted you to bring all the questions everyone has about Christianity out so he could answer them with confidence that would make an impression.  Answer them in hope that they will plant a seed you may choose to let God water. Maybe he was too inflamatory about it at times, but hey at least he admits that he is a hopeless sinner.  We all got problems.

I don't agree with some of the things that he did.  I don't agree with some of the things people here have done.  But then again.  most likely no one cares.

So please, keep on sailing off into the ocean with out a compass.  Ban those who bring the concept that you are not your own god. Its your God given right and God has a funny way of showing people back home.

Remember,

I love you.
God loves you perfectly.
The peace that passeth understanding is waiting for you.

God bless

Passionate-fool

P.S. Sorry this post kinda went off on a generalization of the attitude held by quite a few of the people who do not like NP.  But, just because you dont' like him make his ideas any less worthy than anyone elses.

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Passionate-fool


P.S. Sorry this post kinda went off on a generalization of the attitude held by quite a few of the people who do not like NP.  But, just because you dont' like him make his ideas any less worthy than anyone elses.

It's not him I dislike, it's his belief system I have issue with.
If he is unable to embrace god's shadow as well as god's light then he doesn't understand what he's worshipping.

Also I respect people who can at least attempt to put their experiences into words so that others can understand, so far I have only heard tired cliches. I used to be xian and can tell you that many quote the bible without any comprehension of what teh verses really mean. don't get me wrong, its not just xians who do it but muslims, buiddhists, wiccans, and many other religious people as well.

Also the fact that NP feels the need to convert and cannot accept that someone believes differently is a sign iof insecurity. I don't want an insecure god, I want a god who has worked through the issues I as a human being struggle with, not some entity who merely justifies its own failings.

Xander

[kakkarot]

i think xander's post speaks a great deal about how people view christianity.

i am christian and i am quite ashamed of people like narrowpath/allanon who make christianity seem like some sort of cult (you either believe what he teaches or you are "decieved by satan"). i would rather that people didn't let the actions of the certain members of christianity dictate how they see christianity, but what else could they judge our religion (and us) by, except other christians?

i myself used to have that "unwavering confidence" of what you speak, passionate-fool, even to the point where when my own twin brother (when we were about 15 years old, no less) asked me if he was going to hell because he wasn't baptized i said flat out "if you don't do the Will of God then you will go to hell". and even when my father told me not to say such things i told him too that i was right because it says exactly that in the bible.

not very nice, i must say, and something i am quite ashamed of having said. but that's what it says in the bible, so was my "unwavering confidence" a good idea? a christian should be able to go beyond that: should show love and compassion before strict adherrance to strict "rules", without giving up that confidence. "and these three remain: faith, hope, and love. and the greatest of these is love".

it was indeed the core of many of allanon's posts, love, but still he was preaching through a dogmatic stricture, even if it was intended in love. truly loving your fellow man does not mean bringing them "into the Lord", it means forgetting any differences between you and them and helping them with their true concerns, with their true worries, and with their true fears and dismays and *SHOWING* them what christianity is rather than just preaching it.

one of the greatest attributes of a good writer is in his/her ability to show what happens rather than just tell it, and in the same way people relate better to seeing a christian loving others than they do merely hearing a christian say that they love others.

allanon may have had good motives, but his methods could have been better thought out and prepared [].

~kakkarot

[Passionate-fool]

Hi,

quote:It's not him I dislike, it's his belief system I have issue with. If he is unable to embrace god's shadow as well as god's light then he doesn't understand what he's worshipping.

NP is an ex-satan/darkness worshiper.  So am I to an extent.  That isn't the only ex-somthing we've been either.  Take a look at my post in the thread about prophecy if you care to hear more about a personal experience of mine.  We understand darkness.

  He doesn't like to bring these things up because he only wants you to hear about things of Truth.  He doesn't tell you about merging with the Dragon, or how he's watched Death spin her web amongst the stars to catch people up and devour them.  He doesn't really even mention his story of seeing Christ on the cross.  I was with him that night.  I felt the power of the Holy Spirit emanating from him.  He doesn't want you to be stumbled by his own personal and subjective experiences though.  He only wants you to have God's word.  The only thing trustable.

But, since you respect those who put things into their own words I have tryed to paint a little clearer picture for you.  I hope it has helped.

quote:I used to be xian and can tell you that many quote the bible without any comprehension of what teh verses really mean

The problem here is for me as a Christian, every single scripture he used would be the same any knowledgable Christian would use.  His delivery may not be my style, but he got the bible quotes dead on.  Pray about the scriptures and you'll find your answer to the Truth.  If you can't pray in Jesus Christ's name, at least in your heart truely pray to whatever is the best God.  Say it just like that "this prayer goes out to whatever entity is the best" and really really mean it.  I know it sounds kiddy, but I don't think God so much cares about that sort of thing.  Just about how much heart ya put into it.  Ask about the truthfulness of that scripture and just put your body and spirit in a listening state.  But, Only want to listen to what the best Entity has to say.  Believe it with all your heart.  I suggest this one.

For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

If you feel that is a misqoute and needs more added onto it, fine by me.  read the whole book of John if you want to.  Just keep the same attitude when you read them.

quote:Also the fact that NP feels the need to convert and cannot accept that someone believes differently is a sign iof insecurity.

You have just as much of a need to "convert" in a sense as he does.  You condemn him and his ideas.  People belittle him and mock him.  He just keeps on going though.  He doesn't care what you think of him just so long as he gets the idea across.  I don't always agree with this idea, but I gotta trust that God knows what he's doing with NP.  NP has openly stated that he is no better than you and that you are entitled to think whatever you want to.  You people on the other hand have banned him because he wouldn't agree with you.  This sounds strikingly like hypocrisy don't you think?  Sounds actually like someone else is a bit insecure and doesn't like to have their sense of reality challenged.

NP at least thirsts for knowledge.  How else better to get to know your God than thru defending Him.  That is the other reason he comes here I think.  When he used to think as you do he went to the Christian forums and grilled them.  He hated the fact that none of them ever rose up to the challenge and really defended their faith.  Disgusted that most of them couldn't defend it even if they wanted to.  So now, here he is converted, defending his faith, so that if anyone wanted to know what the bible had to say he could help.  In the process he gets a more intimate knowledge of his God.

quote:I don't want an insecure god, I want a god who has worked through the issues I as a human being struggle with, not some entity who merely justifies its own failings.

Well then, you are definatly worshiping the wrong god.  You get his image from your own ego.  We've determined that you don't want to have your reality challenged.  This shows insecurity, thus you have an insecure ego and therefore your image of god must be insecure.

Jesus said,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  John 14:6

Sounds like someone who is secure to me.

Jesus was God.  Jesus was a man.  He struggled just as a man does, but overcame and was perfect like God is perfect.  He knows your struggle.  He died for it.  How has God failed?  How does he need to justify anything to you?  Apparently he thought free will and all the rest were a good enough risk to take, and who the hell are we to disagree?  We obviously have free will, so free will must be right.  What we do with our free will is another matter.  Tell me just once that you think Almighty GOD wanted to experience being gang raped.  Tell me just ONCE that that is supposed to exist with your darkness of god bit.  I will let the fruit of your tree show itself.

Remember,

I love you.
God loves you perfectly.
The peace that passeth understanding is waiting for you.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[Passionate-fool]

Dearest Kakkarot,

I am not going to disagree with you at all, but I will not judge him either.  He may have been ebrasive at times, but at least he got people considering ideas.  Or, at least he got people defending what they think they know.  At least he stood up for Jesus.  Its had the effect of getting Christianity a thread of its own.  I rejoice in that.  We Christians belong here just as much as anyone else.  I want those 15 year old kids that come here looking for spiritual direction to see what we have to think about it all too!  Not just all this you are your own god garbage.  I'm sorry if that comes out harshly, I hope I do not cause you to stumble, but I must state it like I see it.


Remember,

I love you.
God loves you perfectly.
May you feel the peace that passeth understanding.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[xander]

Originally posted by Passionate-fool

NP is an ex-satan/darkness worshiper.  So am I to an extent.  That isn't the only ex-somthing we've been either.  Take a look at my post in the thread about prophecy if you care to hear more about a personal experience of mine.  We understand darkness.

> so have you not merely gone from one extreme to the other?
>Define satan worship, also satan is a xian deity to an extent. Many religions have no concept of satan.
>have you ever tried Buddhism, Wicca, Taoism, etc?

He doesn't tell you about merging with the Dragon, or how he's watched Death spin her web amongst the stars to catch people up and devour them.

>so he has had shamanistic experiences?

 He doesn't really even mention his story of seeing Christ on the cross.  I was with him that night.  I felt the power of the Holy Spirit emanating from him.

>I've had various experiences which have helped me along teh path. >My path is not your path. My lessons are not your lessons. "GOD" >deals with us as individuals on her/his own terms.

The problem here is for me as a Christian, every single scripture he used would be the same any knowledgable Christian would use.

>that's a bad assumption and you are intelligent enough to know it.

 His delivery may not be my style, but he got the bible quotes dead on.  

> I was like this too at one point and could tear down anyone xian or not.

Only want to listen to what the best Entity has to say.

> last time I talked to your "god" I had to drag it out of it.

You have just as much of a need to "convert" in a sense as he does.

>I can care less whether you beleive the way I do or not, I merely want you to understand and tolerate other points of veiw. Acceptance is an entirely different issue.

You condemn him and his ideas.  People belittle him and mock him.  He just keeps on going though.  

>perhaps he has a martyr complex.

You people on the other hand have banned him because he wouldn't agree with you.

>First of all I didn't ban him, the mods did. secondly its not that he disagrees its his method of disagreement.

This sounds strikingly like hypocrisy don't you think?  Sounds actually like someone else is a bit insecure and doesn't like to have their sense of reality challenged.

>not really considering I've just clarified a few things for you.

NP at least thirsts for knowledge.  How else better to get to know your God than thru defending Him.

>thirst for knowledge implies seeing all sides in a situation. Are you defending "god" or your dogma? I've seen GOD she can take care of herself thank you.

That is the other reason he comes here I think.  When he used to think as you do he went to the Christian forums and grilled them.  He hated the fact that none of them ever rose up to the challenge and really defended their faith.

>most there were probably martyrs longing for a leader. Many like to be told what to think, its easier that way.

Well then, you are definatly worshiping the wrong god.  You get his image from your own ego.

>nope, I get my images of teh divine from many places. the image of teh xian god I get from the bible which contains his character flaws such as telling his followers to murder children. That particular act being something I would never do. So in that sense I have more character than that particular god.

We've determined that you don't want to have your reality challenged.  This shows insecurity, thus you have an insecure ego and therefore your image of god must be insecure.

> I don't mind having my reality challenged. However, I will be rational about it and choose the reality which fits my observations.
Indeed reality changes all the time, thats the nature of life.
As for insecurity, I stopped being insecure when I realized that I'm responsible for my own life not some fantastical fat white guy sittin on a cloud somewhere.
Indeed many xians have an incredibly immatre picture of god.
Jesus said,

Tell me just once that you think Almighty GOD wanted to experience being gang raped.

>I fail to see what this has to do with beleif in god. and besides if god is all people then is not god the rapist as well as teh victim, so then is not god violating himself when used with that logic?

Tell me just ONCE that that is supposed to exist with your darkness of god bit.

>I really doubt you understand what I mean by darkness.

I will let the fruit of your tree show itself.

>Are you accusing me of something? good greif!....are you trying to play mind games? LOL!

I love you.

>I don't know you....stop touching me....NO MEANS NO!!!!
*sprays mace into PF's eyes*

God loves you perfectly.

<i've a can of mace with his name on it as well.

Xander (a str8 guy the homosexuals can't seem to get enough of)

[Passionate-fool]

I'm sorry that my post was not beneficial for you.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[kakkarot]

xander. please be nicer. passionate fool isn't doing what allanon did, so why do you treat him so harshly? just because you don't believe him, because you don't like that he words things through christian viewpoints?

he is debating and discussing, not forcing viewpoints on anyone (please don't confuse having strength in one's beliefs with trying to force others to believe it).

may God's blessings be with you both [|)]

~kakkarot

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

xander. please be nicer. passionate fool isn't doing what allanon did, so why do you treat him so harshly?
~kakkarot

My apologies for attacking so passionately. I sincerely apologize.

Xander

[Passionate-fool]

xander,

If I may respond...

> so have you not merely gone from one extreme to the other?

Answer: Merely is hardly the word I would use for it.  But yes, some must take the extreme roads to understand their own brokeness.

>Define satan worship, also satan is a xian deity to an extent. Many religions have no concept of satan.

Answer: The setting of your will to do evil in evil's name.  Satan the name I use, is the most common among my society and belief system.  I am sure he has other names as well.  But every religion has a concept of what is right and what is wrong.

>have you ever tried Buddhism, Wicca, Taoism, etc?

Answer:Buddhism, yes. Celtic druidry, yes.  taoism, no.

>so he has had shamanistic experiences?

Answer: yes.

>I've had various experiences which have helped me along teh path.

Answer: Did those experiences cause you to feel more enlightened?  Or more humbled?

>My path is not your path. My lessons are not your lessons.

Answer:  I don't really believe that at all.  We are both searching for the same path.  What is truth?  How do we get it right?  Your lessons are not the same but the answer is.  Truth is the answer.  There is only one right way.  You may try and tell me that you don't believe that, but if you were to do so you would be contradicting yourself unfortunatly.

"GOD" >deals with us as individuals on her/his own terms.

Answer: True, but if God is the supreme being wouldn't the object of dealing with us be to bring us into God's one true understanding.

>that's a bad assumption and you are intelligent enough to know it

Answer:  Fair enough.  His quotes are ones that no knowledgable Christian could disagree with then.  If that still seems like a bad assumption to you....Fair enough.  I don't think it is though.

> I was like this too at one point and could tear down anyone xian or not.

Answer:  We are not here to tear down my friend, but to build up.

> last time I talked to your "god" I had to drag it out of it.

Answer:  Doesn't sound like it was my God you were talking to then.

>I can care less whether you beleive the way I do or not, I merely want you to understand and tolerate other points of veiw.

Answer:  If you don't care then why the hostility.  I know you apologized and I thank you for it.  I am grateful.  You also described this post as passionate.  I am glad that you showed me the honor of seeing your passion.  I respect passion.
   I once thought quite a bit like you do.  I understand.  I have stated from the very beginning you are entitled to believe whatever you choose.

>Acceptance is an entirely different issue.

Answer:  If I understand this statement properly, you are insinuating that I do not have to accept what you believe.  Yet you do still demand a form of acceptance out of me.  You want me to accept the possibility that you are right.  Right in the cosmic sense or right in the personal sense.  It doesn't matter.  I cannot give you that acceptance though.  To do so would be to deny my God.  I won't do that.  That, I believe, is why you and people of like mind set as you get so angry with us Christians.

>perhaps he has a martyr complex.

Answer:  Perhaps he does.  There will be many martyrs before the end and someone has to do it.

>First of all I didn't ban him, the mods did. secondly its not that he disagrees its his method of disagreement.

Answer:  First of all, it was you and the general concensus in agreement with the banning that allowed it to happen.
  Secondly, his main mode of disagreement is point and counter point.  Its called debating.  Sure he's in your face about it maybe, but seems more to me like people have thin skin around here.

>not really considering I've just clarified a few things for you.

Answer:  sorry, still sounds like hypocrisy to me.

>thirst for knowledge implies seeing all sides in a situation. Are you defending "god" or your dogma? I've seen GOD she can take care of herself thank you.

Answer:  Thats his whole point.  He wants to hear what you think.  He wants to respond to it.  We defend God, God gave us His word so we defend it as well.  If you had SEEN the one true God, you'd be dead.  He can take care of Himself just fine, but he's allowed me the honor and priviledge of helping Him even though I am unworthy of it.  Your goddess is powerful indeed.  Does her power cry to be told of?  Does she inspire you to tell everyone about her no matter how stupid you look doing it to others?  Is it so wonderful that you want everyone to feel the same?  Do you believe without a single doubt in your mind that you know everything you need to know to enter the gates of heaven?  Do you feel utterly humbled in her presence?  Would you suffer pain, torture, imprisonment and death and still not deny her name?

>most there were probably martyrs longing for a leader. Many like to be told what to think, its easier that way.

Answer: I don't see how this corresponds to my statement.  Sorry.

>nope, I get my images of teh divine from many places. the image of teh xian god I get from the bible which contains his character flaws such as telling his followers to murder children. That particular act being something I would never do. So in that sense I have more character than that particular god.

Answer:  Ok, so i'm gonna need to know what it is exactly that the bible shows as "character flaws" in your mind.  Provide verses if ya can.

> I don't mind having my reality challenged. However, I will be rational about it and choose the reality which fits my observations.
Indeed reality changes all the time, thats the nature of life.

Answer:  Good i'm glad you don't mind being challenged.  I think my statement was more intended for others of like mind who like to come to places like this and all chat away agreeing with each other on how smart and proper their own personal journeys are.  I am sorry if I un-justly threw you in that pot.

>As for insecurity, I stopped being insecure when I realized that I'm responsible for my own life not some fantastical fat white guy sittin on a cloud somewhere.

Answer:  Are you telling me that there is not one thing in you that is insecure?  If so, are you truely expecting me to believe that?  How does God ever say we are not responsible?  God is Love, so he provided us a way out of our responsibility.  Thru free will choice and acceptance of The Living Sacrifice, we admit guilt and ask forgiveness from Him.  It is like we have accrued a debt we cannot pay and the punishment of this debt is death.  "the wages (kinda like your "daily wages") of sin is death".    If ya sin ya die.  You get too many debts on a credit card and you go to the bank to get a loan to pay the credit card companies.  God is that bank.  The only bank with enough currency to pay your debt and everyone's debt off.  But the only thing the bank wants as payment is your love.  He is God you are not.

>I fail to see what this has to do with beleif in god. and besides if god is all people then is not god the rapist as well as teh victim, so then is not god violating himself when used with that logic?

Answer:  You believe that everyone is a part of god herself.  So isn't it you who believes that god is violating herself.  I do not believe that we are bits and peices of God.  We are his creation.  Made in His image.  Just as a painter paints a bit of himself into his painting.  That doesn't make the painting the Painter though does it?  No, the Painter is Himself and the painting is itself.  So that was my point exactly that I wanted to make.  But unfortunatly for you, Its your goddess that submits herself to such things.  You can believe in her if you like.  All things are permissable, but not all things are beneficial.  Pauls words.  So, if you find the act of gang rape to be beneficial and in keeping with how your goddess is then fine.  I would offer you somthing better in my eyes though.

>I really doubt you understand what I mean by darkness.

Answer:  Maybe.  But then again, I might have a better understanding of darkness than you.  Not trying to be arrogant.  Just stating it as a possibility.

>Are you accusing me of something? good greif!....are you trying to play mind games? LOL!

Answer:  It was a statement made in reference to the rape comments.  I was implying that if you think we are god and we gang rape each other then that means your god and her darkness find gang rape to be acceptable practices.  I will let other people decide for themselves if those are good and fitting practices for their image of God.

Remember,

I (Its somthing we Christians call brotherly)Love you.
God loves you perfectly.
May you feel the peace that passeth understanding.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[beavis]

The judge in that story is REALLY FREAKING STUPID!! He knew his son was innocent but had him killed anyways. He is a MURDERER, and he let the other murderer go. Narrow Path is not presenting a good image of "god".

[Tab]

God tends to do stupid irrational things. He apparently set the standard for his followers too.

OH CONTROVERSY

[Mustardseed]

Hi y'all
I would like to just add my 2 cents. Passionate fool does have some valid points and I think it would be wise to consider them. It seems to me that many on these boards react in extreme verbal attacks rether than debate if they are questioned. This is a pity. I agree with him that NP had a abraisive attitude (I was actually myself of the opinion that he should be removed ) he was warned that agression, snide remarks and rude offensive attitudes would mean him being banned. He insisted and was banned. However some here insists on this same attitude and run the same risks. This is a debate forum, and if you dont like that ,you are free to find places to vent your frustration and resentment. Passionate Fool tells it like it is with Love and softness and reason but still it stirrs up this attitude. That makes me think that maybe people are not reacting to the messenger but the message?

Think about it

Regards Mustardseed

[Passionate-fool]

quote: The judge in that story is REALLY FREAKING STUPID!!

I honestly don't see how.  Its the only explination of things i've ever heard that TRUELY makes sense!

quote:He knew his son was innocent but had him killed anyways. He is a MURDERER, and he let the other murderer go

For you big guy.  Had Him killed for you.  But he didn't stay dead, he rose and so now there is no murder.

quote:Narrow Path is not presenting a good image of "god"

 Neither are you.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[Passionate-fool]

quote:Tab Posted - 26 September 2003 : 20:41:02
God tends to do stupid irrational things. He apparently set the standard for his followers too.

OH CONTROVERSY

Hey, Send me an email of a copy of your universe's smartest being certificate.[]  Then i'll talk to ya about whether God and His standards are stupid or not.[B)]

You remind me of a friend of mine who goes to bars gets liquered up and then picks a fight.  I would suggest anger management.  Maybe some counseling too.  I am not trying to be snide here either.  I really mean it.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

The judge in that story is REALLY FREAKING STUPID!! He knew his son was innocent but had him killed anyways. He is a MURDERER, and he let the other murderer go. Narrow Path is not presenting a good image of "god".

actually the point of Jesus murder was that under the old law there had to be an atonement for one's sins (a sacrifice to show that you truly are sorry for what you did). in christian theology, Jesus then was the sacrifice for all mankind's sin (who are willing to accept it), and Jesus was "allowed" to be such a great sacrifice because he himself didn't have any sins for which to atone and so him giving up his life as a sacrifice for others sins was allowed (probably also had something to do with him voluntarily being the sacrifice).

hence why he is called the lamb, because under the old law it was traditionally a lamb that was slaughtered for one's sins. err, "sacrificed" [|)]. but he wasn't just a lamb which was stupid, he was a man, a son of God (and *the* son of God) who was beloved and valued greatly by God, so his sacrifice wasn't just valid (so goes the theorum) for one person's/family's sins, but for everyone's sins.

quote:Origianlly posted by Tab

God tends to do stupid irrational things. He apparently set the standard for his followers too.

OH CONTROVERSY

and what has God done that was "stupid irrational"? (because believe me: i can rationalize it and "prove" that it's not stupid[])

~kakkarot

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by Passionate-fool

You remind me of a friend of mine who goes to bars gets liquered up and then picks a fight.  I would suggest anger management.

Really now.. tell me again why I remind you of that exactly?
Anyway, why would I be angry, this is the internet.

quote:and what has God done that was "stupid irrational"? (because believe me: i can rationalize it and "prove" that it's not stupid)

Go for it.
What is the purpose of Hell. Why would any rational God, in their right mind, create a set of beings merely to inevitably filter them out into either eternal bliss or eternal suffering. Furthermore, what does this accomplish? The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson or cause repentence. An unending punishment is not only irrational, but entirely pointless. Punishment for prior acts is only of any purpose when there is a lesson to be learned and progress to be made. Otherwise, absolutely nothing is accomplished by keeping a sinner in eternal torment. The obvious answer to "What is the purpose to Hell" would be "to punish sinners". But again, this punishment is not a reasonable or meaningful punishment. It accomplishes nothing, and thus is irrational and pointless. Aside from that, it raises the first question, why would God create us just to wind up sending some of us up and some of us down and that's that.
It would take some kind of divine inspiration to rationalize that one with any great deal of convincing logic.

Secondly, God is supposed to be all knowing. Thus, he surely foresaw Adam's disobedience and fall prior to his creation. Therefore, God created Adam for no other purpose but to inevitably fall from him and, eventually, through a bunch of unneeded events such as Jesus dying and the apocalypse, return to him. That's a rather roundabout way of accomplishing absolutely nothing, unless you subscribe to the heathen Hindu concept that the purpose of existance is to seperate from perfection and through learning and progress re-merge with it.


Then of course there are obvious examples such as Moses having to argue God into reasoning with him and not killing off all the Hebrew people for their disobediance at Sinai. But that's less interesting then the philosophical nonsense of Hell and the fall.

Alas, the real reason God is stupid is because he lacks the feature of intelligence, or any other feature for that matter. He is no more intelligent than nature as a whole, or as the smallest atom and the largest galaxy. When you try to make him less than that, you get said illogical paradoxes stemming from the delusions of men.

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by Tab

What is the purpose of Hell. Why would any rational God, in their right mind, create a set of beings merely to inevitably filter them out into either eternal bliss or eternal suffering. Furthermore, what does this accomplish? The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson or cause repentence. An unending punishment is not only irrational, but entirely pointless. Punishment for prior acts is only of any purpose when there is a lesson to be learned and progress to be made. Otherwise, absolutely nothing is accomplished by keeping a sinner in eternal torment. The obvious answer to "What is the purpose to Hell" would be "to punish sinners". But again, this punishment is not a reasonable or meaningful punishment. It accomplishes nothing, and thus is irrational and pointless. Aside from that, it raises the first question, why would God create us just to wind up sending some of us up and some of us down and that's that.
It would take some kind of divine inspiration to rationalize that one with any great deal of convincing logic.

well, in truth, what i'm about to say is in no way neccessarily related to any truth of the universe, but i am going to do my best to try and "rationalize" these things[]. (but i think i did a good job none-the-less[|)])

hell: a very controversial subject, since many people don't like the idea of eternal torment for failing after having only one chance at figuring out life and living it the way one should. i mean, after all, how many parents would eternally torment their child for one single mistake? (well, hopefully none)

but of course, i could go into stuff regarding "early christians used to believe in reincarnation" or, as mustardseed (i think) brought up in another topic "it used to be believed that people could be saved after physical death", or about misinterpretations of "hell" because the jewish people's believe in a mult-tiered after life consisting of seven "heavens" (which translates more to "beyond the sky" than to a place of paradise, referring to different levels of reality not all of which are where God is at) and that sheol ("the grave") is merely one of those places and that when a person is in one place they can move to others. but i won't. i don't have the time nor the incredible indepth knowledge of those issues that would be needed to really get into it.

however, what i do know is this: if God wishes to save everyone on this planet, does He not have the power to give each and every human being at least the chance of being able to decide whether they wish to live a good life or a bad life? could He not rearrange the universe and all of reality as we know it just to give each individual an individual chance to think about the issues and decide for themselves? God did not give us free will so that we would all be forced to do as He says, He gave it to us to give us the choice to do good or evil, to put our destiny in our own hands. so ultimately, it is only ourselves who lead our lives into hell or heaven.

quote:Secondly, God is supposed to be all knowing. Thus, he surely foresaw Adam's disobedience and fall prior to his creation. Therefore, God created Adam for no other purpose but to inevitably fall from him and, eventually, through a bunch of unneeded events such as Jesus dying and the apocalypse, return to him. That's a rather roundabout way of accomplishing absolutely nothing, unless you subscribe to the heathen Hindu concept that the purpose of existance is to seperate from perfection and through learning and progress re-merge with it.

i believe that while God may have known, He still let it happen because if He didn't let it happen then what would be the point of Him giving us free will?

free will comes with consequences for our actions: if God were to just rearrange reality everytime someone "would have" futzed up, then there would be no free will. God may not *like* that we hurt ourselves and each other, but if He were to change that at any point without us requesting it then He would take away the one gift He gave to us that truly matters.

He could put us back in the garden of eden, where everything was perfect, where we had no sin, but would we then care about doing good? not likely. after all, we'd have no understanding of why doing good is so important. we'd be more akin to children who are selfish and only care about things that happen to them because there would be no foul consequences which show us why helping others, instead of just ourselves, mattered. and that's not the life God wants us to live.

quote:Then of course there are obvious examples such as Moses having to argue God into reasoning with him and not killing off all the Hebrew people for their disobediance at Sinai. But that's less interesting then the philosophical nonsense of Hell and the fall.

i've argued with God. like i said before, God may know it's going to happen, but if He didn't let it happen we wouldn't have free will. and besides, you could think of humanity as God's toys with which God can play with and destroy and create as He sees fit.

quote:Alas, the real reason God is stupid is because he lacks the feature of intelligence, or any other feature for that matter. He is no more intelligent than nature as a whole, or as the smallest atom and the largest galaxy. When you try to make him less than that, you get said illogical paradoxes stemming from the delusions of men.

Or perhaps He is smarter than we believe Him to be; being able to see the future, which we cannot, and adjust His actions accordingly. "It is at times neccessary to lose a small battle in order to gain a greater victory elsewhere" (a paraphrase from The Art of War by Sun Tsu).

quote:"If there is a God almighty who controls everything, why doesn't he do something about the present situation?"

"He will. But history is a unified story that isn't over yet."

-slightly modified from http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articles/articleview.asp?ID=34

"well sirs, what do you think?"

~kakkarot

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

i could go into stuff regarding "early christians used to believe in reincarnation" or, as mustardseed (i think) brought up in another topic "it used to be believed that people could be saved after physical death", or about misinterpretations of "hell" because the jewish people's believe in a mult-tiered after life consisting of seven "heavens" (which translates more to "beyond the sky" than to a place of paradise, referring to different levels of reality not all of which are where God is at) and that sheol ("the grave") is merely one of those places and that when a person is in one place they can move to others. but i won't. i don't have the time nor the incredible indepth knowledge of those issues that would be needed to really get into it.

I think in that case we would agree more than we differ. A temporary hell does make sense, and you're right, even the Zoroastrians who gave us the concept of hell to begin with have it that "Upon the appearance of Soshyans, the last Messiah, the "final judgment" would begin.  All souls, who were previously judged at death, would now arise.  The righteous and evil would be separated and a flood of molten metal would pour out upon the earth, purifying it.  Every soul would walk through it.  The righteous would be unharmed, walking through it as if through warm milk.  The evil would walk through it in terrible agony, having all the evil burned away.  Only the good would be left in them.  Angra Mainyu, the evil opponent of Ahura Mazda would send into the flames to be totally consumed.  All the survivors would now live together in the new heavens and the new earth in utmost joy." ( http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/course/21/21a.213/papers/Caroline%20Kim%20-%20Eschatology.htm )
Before that the Hebrew concept of the afterlife was Sheol/Gehenna, which is a lot different from the fire and brimstone eternity facing the heathens (as the Christians have it).

quote:i believe that while God may have known, He still let it happen because if He didn't let it happen then what would be the point of Him giving us free will?

What was the point of him bestowing us with "free will" or "choice" or "the ability to distinguish between two polarities"? It was so that we could devolve (fall) and evolve (return). I hate to force my opinion, but I see a blatant esotericism to that whole dogma. If you don't accept the esoteric interpretation, it makes it generally senseless for God to set it up so we fall, some of us wind up back with him, and some of us wind up in hell. It's creating a race of beings and filtering it out for no real reason.

quote:i've argued with God. like i said before, God may know it's going to happen, but if He didn't let it happen we wouldn't have free will. and besides, you could think of humanity as God's toys with which God can play with and destroy and create as He sees fit.

noono, I wasn't pointing out the fact that God was argued with, I was pointing out the fact that he wanted to do something irrational such as kill all Hebrews, and Moses reasoned with him. You asked for points where God was illogical/irrational/without reason.

[kakkarot]

nice points.[|)] i guess we do agree more than we differ.

and as for God deciding to kill the hebrews: i've never really gotten the reason for that myself, but i have always had the impression that there was a reason for it. i just don't know what it is[|)].

~kakkarot

[Narrow Path]

Judge sentences own son to death for another man's crime.
By John D. Johnson, Affiliated Press Writer
ALBANY, NEW YORK. – A New York State Supreme court judge sentenced his one and only son to death under New York State Law on Tuesday. In a decision that shocked the nation, but no one more than his own son, Judge Juan Lionella handed the verdict to his son Emmanuel J. Lionella. The guilty party in the case was Mark D. Slostium of Columbus, Ohio who had a rap sheet too long too list in this article. But the charges ranged from perjury to murder. Although the judge's son did not know the guilty party, he had observed him for quite some time as he lived very near to the criminal. In fact the criminal Mr. Slostium had committed many of his crimes against Emmanuel. Never the less, Emmanuel had such a great love for fellow humans he volunteered to take the place of Mr. Slostium even though he himself was not guilty of any crime. Those who knew Emmanuel say he was a picture of God. He was always helping people whenever he could and no one had even seen him tell even the smallest of lies. His neighbor Fred Bancroft said, "Emmanuel was the most gentle and compassionate man I ever knew. He had such a deep love of every human being in him. It's a shame to see this happen."
The judge wasted no time in completing the execution. Three days later on Friday the execution of an innocent man took place. Witnesses at the Albany City Jail say that Emmanuel was so nervous and stressed the night before the execution that he was actually sweating blood. According to Thomas P. Lindherst, MD with The University of New York Medical Center, there are a few documented cases of people sweating blood under extreme stress. The moments which lead up to the execution were no picnic for Emmanuel either. The crowd that gathered actually taunted and tormented Emmanuel as if he was the real guilty party. They failed to see the great love that he had for all. The judge's son pleaded with his father three times in the moments preceding his death. Yet he finally accepted the penalty and his final words were "Not my will father, but your will." He was also heard saying by a witness "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Judge Lionella was not a mean man according to colleagues and friends." He shared the most wonderful relationship with his son." according to District Attorney Linda Listone. "He would spend all of his time and money on his son", she said, "and he loved him more than life itself. He must have had some great purpose to give up such a treasure in his life." Others who were interviewed reflected the exact same sentiments.
The real guilty party Mr. Slostium seemed as his same cold and callous self for a few days according to his friends. But then after much time to contemplate he realized something so great. "What kind of man would lay his own life down for me? I was the one who should have died that day! But now because he died, I can live!! And I have nothing but a thankful heart for the compassion of Judge Lionella who gave up his only son for me." Mr. Slostium was seen this morning at the judge's feet in front of the courthouse asking him for forgiveness. The judge apparently picked him up, embraced him and forgave him! What kind of love is that?

This article you just read is a fabrication that represents a great truth. The judge represents God the Father. His son Emmanuel represents Jesus Christ. Mr. Slostium represents every human being including you. God sent his only son Jesus Christ into the world out of paradise to accept the punishment for the sins of all men and women who ever lived! "The wages of sin is death", according to the bible. All sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice. Jesus was perfect and never sinned and he therefore was the perfect blood sacrifice. He was as pure as snow and the shedding of His blood covers your sin. Jesus died so that you could live!! He paid the price for you! All you need to do is to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. He was God in the flesh. You need to believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and that on the third day he rose again and sits at the right hand of God! You need to admit that you have sinned against God. The bible says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." You need to ask God to forgive you and repent or turn from your sinful way. You need to ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart and he will at that moment! God will immediately forgive you and give you His Holy Spirit to live inside of you. He will help you turn from your sin. You then need to confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and you will be saved. ! You will have the gift of eternal life so that what we call "death" will only be the entry point into eternity spent with God! If you want to experience this now you can. Just pray to God. Get down on your knees and acknowledge to God all of what I just said above. Just like in the news story God is waiting to embrace you and forgive you!
Written by Bill Caine
Upper Sandusky, OH