Sabbath

[exothen]

I believe that the Sabbath changed to Sunday fairly early in Christian history.  Christians, from very early on, started to celebrate Christ's resurrection on a Sunday (which also happened to be Easter []). The day of Pentecost was also on a Sunday.  Also, part of it may have been the Christian Jews setting themselves apart from the Jews to show the significance of what they believed. Although, it is likely the Christian Jews still observed the Jewish Sabbath as well as celebrating on Sunday.

The actual change to a Sabbath Sunday may have come when Emporer Constantine decreed that urban residents were to have a day of rest on "the venerable day of the sun." In 538 in France, the Council of Orleans threatened to punish Christians for working in the fields on Sundays.  Then in 789, Charlemagne the Great outlawed all labour on Sunday.

Somewhere in there.

[Tab]

I wish I could tell you why the Jewish sabbath was on Saturday (perhaps Saturn, Chronos, some have drawn up equations between Jehovah and Chronos if I'm not mistaken), but I do know why Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
Mithraism.
Sun-day was the holy day of the Pagan sun worshippers, Christians wanted to distance themselves from the Jews, and they were adopting a ton of other pagan symbols, so why not?
AFAIK the Muslim holy day was made friday merely to set it apart from Christianity and Judaism.

[exothen]

That's funny Tab.  And completely untrue.  If you would like to debate any sort of Mithraic-Christian link, or even for an idea of how indefensible a position that is, try here: http://www.sntjohnny.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=145  The thread is quite short as the original poster thought the same as you but turned tail and ran at not being able to answer any points on the issue.

As I stated, there were several significant events that happened on a Sunday, particularly Christ's resurrection. The Jewish Sabbath is Saturday because on the Torah tells them that is when it is - on the seventh day, God rested and told them to do the same.

[Tab]

Yeah yeah, the ressurection that coincidentally happened on the celebration of the vernal equinox, and managed to loosely coincide with passover. I didn't see that thread disproving anything he said, either, except that site that claimed that Mitraism, an established cult, really just copied from the baby cult of Christianity. Oh, hello logic.

[Beth]

exothen,

You were quite correct when you stated  

quote:The actual change to a Sabbath Sunday may have come when Emporer Constantine decreed that urban residents were to have a day of rest on "the venerable day of the sun."

which coincides with what Tab is saying. To the best of my knowledge, Christians did not have a set established day of worship, some people got together several evenings a week, some on various other days. "The day of the Sun" was deemed to be the official day which Constantine made as a day of rest and festival, i.e. Sunday.  This was already the weekly worship day in Mithraism and thus became the official day of worship for Christians.  

I am not in a position to go into any great debate on this--no one can as far as I know--for this is about all that we know.  As for other holidays such as Easter and Christmas, they were set to be the same as many religious/cultural holidays--that is, based upon soltices and equinoxes.  Many Mithraic traditions were absorbed by the new Roman Catholic Church.  BTW: Passover is set by the moon and the spring equinox. On the "7th day" -- that is relative to when one believes the "1st day is."  

Peace,
Beth

[exothen]

Tab,

quote: Yeah yeah, the ressurection that coincidentally happened on the celebration of the vernal equinox, and managed to loosely coincide with passover.

The resurrection was very much planned to coincide with the Passover, which, if you knew the significance of the Jewish tradition, you would realize the significance of this event at that point in the year.

quote:I didn't see that thread disproving anything he said, either, except that site that claimed that Mitraism, an established cult, really just copied from the baby cult of Christianity. Oh, hello logic.

You missed that whole point of that post. It was to get the original poster to show evidence of any connection between Mithraism and Christianity using primary source material, or to even show an accurate depiction of Mithraism using primary source material.

Since you, and some others, keep claiming some connection between Mithraism and Christianity, you should step up to the plate and see if you can answer the charges. I would be curious, since many seem to think it is fact, if anyone could do such a thing. Or is it all just conjecture?

But, really, I have no experience or knowledge of Mithraism, so I cannot debate it. But I have yet to see anyone get anything past the guys on the site above, in about 2 and half years of debating along  side of them. Of course, it would always amuse me if someone did.

Beth,

quote:To the best of my knowledge, Christians did not have a set established day of worship, some people got together several evenings a week, some on various other days.

Justin Martyr referenced to Christians worshipping on "the day of the sun" (Apologia 1.67 - about AD 150). Paul, in 1 Cor. 16:2, states that "on the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income...," although he does make the point elsewhere that the actual day isn't important, but that a day is set aside is what matters.

[Beth]

exothen,

quote:although he does make the point elsewhere that the actual day isn't important, but that a day is set aside is what matters

 Exactly my point!  There were a great many different "sects" of early Christianity--they were ALL different in some of the things that they did, e.g., baptisms (how and at what age), Eucharist (how often), "when" things happened (birth and death of Jesus), and when and how often to worship (evenings, daytime, once a week, several times a week.)  It was not until the Council of Nicaea and afterwards that these things were officially standardized, and even then, the Eastern church for example, still did things differently.  

On Mithraism and Christianity--

quote:But, really, I have no experience or knowledge of Mithraism, so I cannot debate it

then might I suggest you look into it. You are already "debating" on this subject and looking to this other website as your authority.  Go somewhere else and find out about Mithraism, and decide for yourself.  Also, a good general course in Anthropology of Ancient Religion or a specific Sociological Study of Ancient Religion will tell you a great deal.  James G. Frazer's The Golden Bough will actually explain how BOTH Mithraism and Christianity pull from even more ancient religious practices that go back many centuries.  

There is a lot to all of this.  None of these questions are easy--nor in many, many cases are the answers "for sure."  I have stated this before--we are so far removed from the period, that we can just do the best that we can to figure it all out--BUT--we must do our best, and that includes doing so from a non-specific-religion standpoint.  Many, many things MUST be taken into consideration that are not in keeping with faith based beliefs.

Peace,
Beth

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:But, really, I have no experience or knowledge of Mithraism, so I cannot debate it. But I have yet to see anyone get anything past the guys on the site above, in about 2 and half years of debating along side of them. Of course, it would always amuse me if someone did.

First, understand that what I am about to say is in no way directed at the site you have refered to because I have not read any of it other than the mentioned post so I do not know it well enough to say any such thing about it.

To someone or a group that is biased and does not wish to truly explore for truth but instead keep their ideas as they are, it is impossible to get any other ideas by them. I have seen many people and groups like this in real life and on the net. This is probably even more so when it comes to religion though it can be about anything. This makes looking for good information a major headache as it seems most sources are bluntly biased one way or another.

Thank you, everyone, for the replies.

[exothen]

quote:To someone or a group that is biased and does not wish to truly explore for truth but instead keep their ideas as they are, it is impossible to get any other ideas by them. I have seen many people and groups like this in real life and on the net. This is probably even more so when it comes to religion though it can be about anything. This makes looking for good information a major headache as it seems most sources are bluntly biased one way or another.

And the same goes for everyone and everything on this site. It is impossible to have any serious discussion about religion, or practically anything, without bias.

Beth,

But is any of this from source material? I, too, am not interested in someone else's "told you so," but want to search for myself. As for taking a course, that'll be in due time.

[Beth]

exothen,

quote:But is any of this from source material? I, too, am not interested in someone else's "told you so," but want to search for myself. As for taking a course, that'll be in due time.

It all depends upon what can be considered "source material."  "Original source" material on this particular topic is very hard to come by, but from what we have, scholars have put together their own analyses of the matierial.  I suggest the following:

The History of the Church
by Eusebius,
translated by G. A. Williamson

The Early Church: The Story of Emergent Christiantity from the Apostolic Age to the dividing way between the Greek East and the Latin West
by Henry Chadwick

These are scholarly works that are also standard curriculum texts in most Christian Religion College Courses.  These are a good start.

On the similarities of Mithraism and Christianity that is not covered in the above texts, I mentioned James Frazer's Golden Bough: The Roots of Religion and Folklore, (which has also been for many decades a common curriculum text) because his extensive study shows where religion "evolves" through time, and how new religions "by necessity" absorb rituals, traditions and beliefs from other cultures (sometimes older cultures, sometimes just competing cultures.)  His primary focus is on the "killing of the god" and the "rebirth" of said god either from an "old human" into another "younger human" OR as a rebirth into a "transcendent deity."  These ideas are VERY OLD, and easily pre-date Christianity.

Another good text for Religious Studies is a general survey/introductory text titled: Anthropological Studies of Religion: An Introductory Text by Brian Morris.  This was one of the texts that I studied from in a History and Critical Theories of Religion course.  (This class is also when I was introduced to Frazer cited above.)  This introductory text is a great survey of religious thinkers from Hegel, Weber and Marx to Durkheim, Freud and Jung.  The bibliography in the back is extensive and will provide for a great deal more texts for further study.  This text is also relatively small and pretty easy to read (even if the broad range of ideas he surveys are a bit challenging at times!)  I do not know where you are studying, but most Religion Professors are very familiar with all of these texts.  They are some of the foremost scholars in Religious Studies.  

BTW:  I RARELY EVER go to the Internet for information...and then, it is usually to an encyclopedia or to seek reading lists from bibliographies.  I like to study the texts for myself and then through a well rounded exposure to the issue, I prefer to draw my own conclusions.

Peace,[]
Beth

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Anyone know when and why the Sabbath was changed from the last day of the week to the first?

[soma-sight]

The True Sabbath is the Seventh Day of the Week.

The change was instituted by the RCC.

It is NOT Biblical to worship on Sunday.

The Ten Commandments are straight foward and easy to understand.