Who Was Jesus Really?

[Beth]

Ghostrider,

While Jesus or "Yeshua" was a very common Jewish name, there is no historical supporting evidence that the Jesus of which we speak ever existed at all--in any form.

Now, is there a spiritual master that resides on another plane that sometimes speaks to humans by the name of Yeshua or Jesus?  Can spiritual masters incarnate for a period of time?  I am inclined to think so, but there is no historical supporting evidence that this entity ever had a physical incarnation and biography that matches the details found in the Bible.  The Bible and a few related documents are all we have.

As a spiritual master, however, this entity could have been able to manifest in any way that it chose. So perhaps it manifested itself to some and not all.  Perhaps this master still does...and perhaps many other masters do as well.  This is what I am pondering at the moment.

Peace,
Beth

[Gandalf]

Well, as a classical historian I have my own view on this:

I am inclined to think it doubtful that there was any historical character called jesus christ, as there are NO written accounts from the period in which he is meant to have lived, which there should be as Roman admin was highly advanced, and the scale of his miracle working etc as described would definatly have attracted wide attention if they happened in the scale that is written. Also there are no contemprory records that list any place known as 'Nazareth', all these elements came about later, Even Joseph, an important jewish writer during the period in question doesnt even mention any such person.

Some modern christians have tried to get round this by insisting that the authorites 'purged' the records leaving no actual contemprory accounts but this is quite unlikely, in all other similar situations there ARE ALWAYSD traces to be found.
The actual testament accounts are now considred not to have been written by who they claim to have been, but have been composed at a later date, sometime in the late 1st century, furthermore, word analysis indicates that the last three gospals are based on the first one, with a few alterations.


As I have said in another post, all the stories about jesus' miracle working and other stories about the 'last supper' and the 'virgin birth' etc were all stories that were already well known features of classical mythology; as I said, both Dionosyus, the Greek god of wine, and the persian god Zoaroaster both had 'virgin births', had their births fortold by stars, were both attended by wise men and shepherds, and both had 'last supper' scenarios before being betrayed/killed by their followers.
The stories of Jesus' miracle working and healing are re-hashed versions of stories of the greek healer god Ascelipius who is credited as being a 'proto-jesus'.

The reason for this is that for the new religion of christianity to take off it had to contain common pagan elements that would be familar to classical readers, otherwise they were not likely to accept it.
Any classical historian who knows their greek myth will be happy to show you that all the major attributes of Jesus and all the important NT stories are in fact re-hashed versions of earlier classical mythology, which, considering that most of 'state christianity' is a creation of the Roman empire, should not be much of a suprise.

There were certainly christian followers and an active christian cult by the mid 1st century AD if not before, but people should not be suprised at how quickly a mythic cycle, like the story of a healer god like christ can take off. In the same way, many cults grew up around Heracles but it is hardly likely that there was an actual historical figure such as old Heracles himself.

The idea of Jesus quickly grew in christian cult circles as more of a concept, an idea. For example if you read the epistles (letters) of Saul (later st Paul) he nowhere mentions any real historical character called Jesus christ. Rather, Christ is an idea a godlike figure not of this world. As the myth grew it eventially became accepted as part of the story that he had lived as a man in Judea but there is nothing contemporary that supports this.

However, as Beth suggests, there are some viable modern day accoounts of highly advanced beings who seem to take the form of the christian jesus or at least that is how they are interpreted by the people who see them. However, it is not really that far fetched to imagine that spiritual masters might reveal themselves in a manner that would be familar to the viewer, esp if he/she came from a christian background. For the same reason, we get muslims reporting seeing visions of Allah and hindus reporting visions with hindu deities, in fact this seems consistent with what we know of how these beings operate when they interact with our world.

Douglas

[Beth]

Gandalf,

All that you write is of course as accurate as we can ascertain. You also wrote:  

quote:However, it is not really that far fetched to imagine that spiritual masters might reveal themselves in a manner that would be familar to the viewer, esp if he/she came from a christian background. For the same reason, we get muslims reporting seeing visions of Allah and hindus reporting visions with hindu deities, in fact this seems consistent with what we know of how these beings operate when they interact with our world.

That is also what I was thinking when I made that last post--but I didn't write it very thoroughly!  Thanks for expounding this further!

Peace,[]
Beth

[GhostRider]

Thank you!  Both of you, Beth and Gandalf, I look forward to your posts on other topics already and to have two great answers right off the top...that's great!

I still tend to think that Jesus was deified wrongly, that he was a man caught up in something so much bigger than himself, and was thrust upwards and exalted like a God.  I've also noticed we still have that trait, that we feel we need to "exalt" things, as is demonstrated by how we treat our sports stars, our supermodels, celebrities, etc... instead of appreciating them for the mere man/woman or spiritual guide that they are.  Am I right in assuming that's a common trait in mankind?

Beth, Gandalf, what you said of how spiritual guides could come to us in the form of something we already find familiar, is it always so?  Or would there be a time later on when they feel we're ready for something closer to the truth of what "they" really are.  That is, if that's an important aspect of their encounter with us.  

So I sit back and await more great answers from the audience...[^]

[exothen]

Yes, Jesus was the Son of God, God incarnate, and his purpose was to walk the earth until an appointed time to die. To say anything less is to completely miss what he even said about himself. He did rise up to heaven and is at the right hand of the Father.

And, yes, there are good reasons for believing so.

[GhostRider]

Okay, exothen, if there are good reasons to believe so, why?  Facts, or heavily supported supposition.  No feeling, emotional, or "just-because-the-bible-says-so-reasons".  If that were the case, any book claiming ANYTHING could be cited as reason enough.  So bare with me, I will need you to back that up somehow.  I await your answer.

Thanks for your response though.

~GhostRider

[exothen]

GhostRider,

It may be a while since school is keeping me very busy at the moment (which is why I haven't been around much lately), but I will reply when I can. I was hesitant to even respond initially. All I am saying is, don't hold your breath.[|)]

[GhostRider]

ha ha ha!  No problem, I'm real busy too lately with school and work myself, so whenever you can get at that answer, no problem, the thread will still be here.

[Gandalf]

I too can hardly wait for Exothen's evidence, it's going to nothing short of sensational, especially seeing how, if correct, the evidence must have evaded the attention of classical historians for decades!

However, I was wondering if Exothen could clear somthing up for me right away; are you a religious pluralist at all; ie do you accept other faiths as equally valid ways of 'looking at the light'? or are you exclusive, in that Jesus is God and everyone else is wrong? If so, then can you prove this?

Regards,
Douglas

[Nagual]

Just wanted to point out that, for me, so called evidences from books or stories/histories have no ground...  What I mean is that the fact that it's written down in a famous/holy/mystic/rare/magic/whatever book has no more value than if some unknown guy was telling me the story...  I am sure I could find you an old book saying that the earth is flat...  []

[Mustardseed]

Hi all
How are you all doing[]just came by and saw the subject. Interesting isn't it. !!!. My take on this subject is known to all.

Just becourse there is very little archaelogic early evidence does not mean it did not happen. I certainly admit that we are hard pressed to find His first shoes, baby teeth kept in a jar, or his bitemark on a fozzilised fish however as I said this is in keeping with how we as Christians understand the nature and God and could be part of the plan. "they that come to God must BELIEVE that he is, and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him" . I could qoute u a string of verses here but wont. If you are interested look up "believe" and "faith" in a concordance, and while you are at it look up "proved", "evidence" , "hard fact" too [].

My problem with this thread and the way you all argue is that folks like you, in this case Beth, assumes, guesses or speculates, that "since he and the Bible is fake, maybe he could be a "high master" reincarnated a entity on the astral plane etc".

WHAT!!!! Listen folks. First you refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that He could be who the Bible claims, and back this by stating there in no Proof, and in the next sentence you suggest assume and speculate on astral planes, high masters, reincarnation etc . Stuf that is absolutely un proven and for most scientists and historians would only bring a smile. Am I the only one who is stumped here!!!!Come on now. One of you (cant remember who it was), in one thread bashes the bible, and in another thread wants to know how to contact the reptillian guys from Dragonium or whatever. Is this inconsistancy only bringing a slight smile to my face, or are you able just once in a while to laugh at yourself! Be honest now. How much stuf do you think is true that absolutely cannot be proven, and how much is proven that you think is false. Lets all agree then that O.J. is absolutely innocent then[]

As for me and my house we believe in Jesus, until some or one of you convince me otherwise, and it has better be a good story, and not some Startreck plot from a Galaxie near you []

Regards Mustardseed

[beavis]

I refuse to accept the reliability of any document that comes from a time where it was commonly accepted that earth is flat and the center of the universe.

[GhostRider]

First, let's acertain whether or not you think like a Catholic or a Protestant... then we'll be sure to know how to speak a common tongue?
....... take this test and tell me the results...
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/catholic-protestant_test.html

Mustardseed, with all due respect, are you sure you speak for ALL Christians?  
Your quote of...,"Just becourse there is very little archaelogic early evidence does not mean it did not happen. I certainly admit that we are hard pressed to find His first shoes, baby teeth kept in a jar, or his bitemark on a fozzilised fish however as I said this is in keeping with how we as Christians understand the nature and God and could be part of the plan. "they that come to God must BELIEVE that he is, and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him" . I could qoute u a string of verses here but wont. If you are interested look up "believe" and "faith" in a concordance, and while you are at it look up "proved", "evidence" , "hard fact" too"

Hmmm... but since the MAJORITY of christians are Catholic and the MAJORITY of non-catholic Christians are of the eastern ORTHODOX persuasion a.k.a... protestants... that is a fairly ERRONEOUS assumption, wouldn't you say?

 I base this on the very fact that most Christians, and that's especially including the ones who are sent to "Christian" schools are taught of Darwin's theory of evolution, AND they are taught that mostly the bible is a metaphor, a story of tales and morality fables that you can base your life on.  Nowhere in the whole of Catholicism do they teach that CREATIONISM IS RIGHT.  And since I have good friends who teach in either a orthodox school or christian schools (either side of the border), nowhere do they teach that Creationist doctrine espoused by so many fear-mongering fundamentalists down here in the states.  Simply put, they don't want to give their students a dissadvantage by sending out the next generation of "flat-earther's".  It's a harsh world, arm your kids with knowledge, academic tools, FACTS...don't load garbage on him or her.  Leave that to MTV and Reality-T.V. shows...

Just in case you were confused...

Catholicism... (estimated total of 1 billion followers)

http://www.vocation.com/content-f5z.htm

"There are 1,005,254,000 (just over a billion)) Catholics in the world now. 49.32% of them are in America, 28.18% in Europe, 11.23% in Africa, 10.47% in Asia, and .8% in Oceania."


I know what you're thinking, a lot of Americans aren't Catholic.  But if they're not Catholic, they're one of dozens of other christian-based faiths that MAY-OR-MAY-NOT agree with each other.  Some preach that EVERYONE in the country are deserving of God's love, some preach tolerance to other faiths, MOST of them don't though...(going by the ministers I know and I know dozens literally, T.V. Ministries out there, and all the literature I come across)
So I guess what I'm saying is that for a tiny minority of American christians...almost all of them protestant, and more often than not, members of "un-orthodox" churches who believe in talking directly to God, faith healing, speaking in tongues, testing your faith with snakes, rolling in the isles, and MILKING their flock DRY of money, the world must seem like one big scary place that needs to be "brought over to Jesus" otherwise, we're all (those who do not think as they do) going to hell.  I would disagree... but in the future, don't include statements that would lump all of Christendom into the same backward lot.  We DON"T all think alike, and the majority of us DO see reason and science as a GREAT addition to ENLIGHTENED thought.  It's just not as easy to tow this road as thinking like that can cause one to work up a sweat from time to time, especially if they're unaccustomed to it.  

So it does strike me as funny that one lone christian can speak for many (or all) the rest of the christians out there.  We don't all think alike.  And I'll back that up with fact, links and quotes if you want.  Some of us are indeed, interested in the truth.


http://www.net-burst.net/hot/facts.htm

Figures from Encyclopedia Britannica,
probably the most respected of all encyclopedias

A non-religious encyclopedia can be expected to mix together everyone who claims to belong to a certain religion, regards of whether their commitment is strong enough to change their lives. So it is hardly surprising that the following figures are larger than others I quote. Nevertheless, they are very interesting. The real world is surprisingly different to what most of us think.


* 33.0% of people in the world are Christian
* 19.3% are Muslim

* 15.3% are atheists or non-religious

* 13.4% are Hindu

* 6.4% follow traditional Chinese religions
* 6.0% are Buddhist
* 3.8% follow tribal or indigenous religions

* 1.7% belong to religions created since 1800

* 0.4 % are Sikhs

* 0.2% are Jews

[Mustardseed]

Hi GR
Man you do write some big posts[]. I dont know why, but I always feel like......oh ohhhh GR is answering . excrement another bunch of home work to do. I always have do all this crummy internet stuf when I have to answer you. anyway here goes[]

First of all I took the test and surprise I am neither!!! I do not want to be boxed in and some questions I had no answer for so that probably makes me a ....freak[] I am OK with that. Cute test anyway.

My problem with your answer , well problem is saying a lot not really problem but rather ......question, is this.

What are you talking about!!!!

OK so I said "Christians" my mistake. Try to get to the core of my post. I will ask again.: How come you and Beth ask for PROOF of the Historical Jesus and makes this proof or rather the lack of it your reason to disbelieve in him, while on the other hand seem to accept various wierd and wonderful belief systems including OBEs Astral worlds, spiritual entities, reincarnation and on and on ALL BY FAITH , no proof needed no questions. For goodness sake we have people claiming to channel the Pleiadeans , converse with reptileans and making ki balls moving cars with the power of thought!!!!!And I am the only one held accountable and grilled for proof. []If you cannot see the funny side of this you suffer from a very serious case of "ITAKEMYSELFTOOSERIOUSLY" it is a very contageious virus. You remind me of a line from a old movie "Heaven can wait"...our hero is asked in a meeting with the press.."is it true that your atomic plant if it fails could destroy parts of California"...at this point his spin doctor pipes up and says

"I think you will have to define destroy".

Have a laugh at yourself. Look at the threads in this forum and stop being so .........so......whatever[]. Give me a break at least and lets just talk about stuf. Lets explore each others universe lets compare notes lets be friends and for Gods sake ..... accept the fact that we all might be wrong. We are on earth if there is a God he is in heaven. He might have made the whole blasted thing , by creation or evolution whatever!!!!But I tell you if "He is", he is a whole lot smarter that we are and .....I think he is laughing his butt off.

Regards Mustardseed

[GhostRider]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Hi GR
Man you do write some big posts[]. I dont know why, but I always feel like......oh ohhhh GR is answering . excrement another bunch of home work to do. I always have do all this crummy internet stuf when I have to answer you. anyway here goes[]

First of all I took the test and surprise I am neither!!! I do not want to be boxed in and some questions I had no answer for so that probably makes me a ....freak[] I am OK with that. Cute test anyway.

 Ha ha ha!  Same result as mine, so there are officially two 'freaks' now. [8D]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

My problem with your answer , well problem is saying a lot not really problem but rather ......question, is this.

What are you talking about!!!!

OK so I said "Christians" my mistake. Try to get to the core of my post. I will ask again.: How come you and Beth ask for PROOF of the Historical Jesus and makes this proof or rather the lack of it your reason to disbelieve in him, while on the other hand seem to accept various wierd and wonderful belief systems including OBEs Astral worlds, spiritual entities, reincarnation and on and on ALL BY FAITH , no proof needed no questions. For goodness sake we have people claiming to channel the Pleiadeans , converse with reptileans and making ki balls moving cars with the power of thought!!!!!And I am the only one held accountable and grilled for proof. []If you cannot see the funny side of this you suffer from a very serious case of "ITAKEMYSELFTOOSERIOUSLY" it is a very contageious virus. You remind me of a line from a old movie "Heaven can wait"...our hero is asked in a meeting with the press.."is it true that your atomic plant if it fails could destroy parts of California"...at this point his spin doctor pipes up and says

"I think you will have to define destroy".

Have a laugh at yourself. Look at the threads in this forum and stop being so .........so......whatever[]. Give me a break at least and lets just talk about stuf. Lets explore each others universe lets compare notes lets be friends and for Gods sake ..... accept the fact that we all might be wrong. We are on earth if there is a God he is in heaven. He might have made the whole blasted thing , by creation or evolution whatever!!!!But I tell you if "He is", he is a whole lot smarter that we are and .....I think he is laughing his butt off.

Regards Mustardseed

Hey, there I'll agree with you, he is laughing, wherever he is. I'm just a little too used to the religious debates down here in the southern part of Texas.  Folks take it damn serious, and you had better come to a debate packing.  So... with that said, I probably do have a little seriousness interjected within these posts.  But my viewpoint comes from someone who wants to know the truth and thinks we have come too far to let anything or anyone slide us back to the realms of ignorance.  The truth will set us free, free to be whoever it is we were meant to be, what that is, I don't know yet.  So that is why I ask the questions.

[Mustardseed]

You are cool buddy, lets compare notes , be friends, even though we might root for different teams (inspired by the world series which by the waY Florida WON) YEHAAAAAAAAAAA. All the best

[Gandalf]

Why is it that the Baseball World Series is called the 'World' series when it is only held within the confines of the United States?

It's just one of those odd things I've always wondered about!

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Ha we talked about that as well......just another US insanity I guess[]but it was pretty fun.

[GhostRider]

Just a thought on the "World Series" being called the "World Series"... is it because the players are from all over the world (just about)?  Besides the players from all over Central and South America, wasn't there a Japanese player as well as some from the Carribean island nations part of the world too?

[exothen]

Just to let you all know, I am alive and well, barely, but I still don't have anything together.[V] School has kept me busier than I thought and with 3 weeks left, it's going to be even worse. If I do find some spare time, I will get things going.

[Gandalf]

Sorry ghostrider, but 'some players from central and south america' and 'some japanese player from the Carribean' still doesnt mean that it deserves being called a 'world series'! You miss the point; never mind about players, all the teams are US teams.. there is no international competition so how can it be a 'world series'?

ie compare to the 'World Cup' which DOES deserve the term 'world'.
The World cup refers to football (or Soccer for Americans).

Douglas

[AngelicSaiyan]

I honestly think that all what really matters is what you believe in.  You are entitled to what you believe in and no one has the right to hold you under duress to change your standpoint.  I myself am a believer in the Big Guy and The Man.  I believe that God sent Jesus to teach us about why God did all this good, and to die/ressurect for our sins.  If you beieve in The Father and that Jesus Christ died for our sins, then you will go to heaven.  I do believe that JC walked this earth in the early first centruy AD.

If people say that the Bible is a fiction story, then why are there relations in it to natural history?  Moses was a slave during the pyramid construction.  The ziggurats at Ur.  Old Israel.  Canaan.  Babel.  Tell me, why do people say that Judiasm and Christianity are rewrites of the Sumerian religion?  If there was this planet before the Earth, why doesn't the Bible have it?  Most documents explaining the formation of the Sol system talk about a planet being destroyed which in turn created the Terran system and the AB.  A lot of beliefs, science facts, and stories don't relate.  Yes, I believe in the Big Bang/Expanding Universe theory and Sol forming after a supernova.  I also think that Genesis 1:1-30 happened.  But, none of what I believe in speak of "The Red Comet" and "Tiamat", but Science says the possibility of a planetary destruction creating the AB and Terra, and the Bible says the Earth was created from nothing.  So, we have conflicts here.  Do I believe in my Christian faith, do I believe Science, or do I believe the twisted beliefs of these web sites?    

HELP!!!! Someone please comb my mind?

[GhostRider]

And may "G-to-the-D" bless us all...

[GhostRider]

 Was he the holy son of God, fated to walk the earth briefly untill he was betrayed by one of his own and crucified, whereas he rose again and decended unto Heavan where he awaits God's order to deliver salvation and damnation unto the Earth?

 Was he the rebel-rouser and early christian radical of Jewish faith, a Jew himself but again, not the same as his Jewish brethern?

 Or was he a human being.  Born Emanuel Bar Joseph, son of Mary and due to his philisophical leanings and some rare gifts, still but a ordinary man caught up in something FAR bigger than himself?  

Where did he REALLY end up?  In Heaven, somewhere around India under an assumed name.  Did he die on that cross for real?

I know what faith says, but how does history and logic bare this one out?

Earnest answers only.  I may not agree with you, but let's hear you out anyways.  Just back up your claims with fact or heavily-supported supposition. Jack-Asses need not reply...[}:)]