The REAL TIME ZONE and the DEMON CHAIN OF COMMAND

[Tab]

Sounds to me like a classic case of Christian being introduced to the astral. Specifically, it looks like he was taken straight from the bottom up, through all the primary planes (within the astral).

However his comment that Satan's plan was to get humans to worship him made me think.
That's exactly what the Christian God does, enlist hundreds of millions of people to worship him as a being. Maybe God as he's thought of en masse today.. is really Satan? It would go along with his name, the deciever, and the world of be-ing, Maya (illusion). And it would go with the concept of the world of being as the farthest from the source/God that "the deceiver" is acting with evil and getting people to turn away from truth (in fact, my personal definition of evil is ignorance).
So maybe the real God is Brahman/Atman in it's purest conceptual form, and the real "satan" is Jehovah in his purest conceptual form.
HMMMMMMMMMMM
Note, I'm not trying to be anti-christian or spite anyone. It's an interesting idea and is the first thing that sprung to mind when I read "He wants flesh to worship him".

[Hephaestus]

Oh my! reading that just brings up an all manner of contradictions between that and the Bible no matter how much he tries to relate them both.

[Mustardseed]

His main point still rings true to me. Namely this

There is order in the physical world. There is a food chain, powerstructures, as well as politics and wars.THE ASTRAL COULD BE THE SAME. It stands to reason that many of us who project does not meet warlords from afghanistan nor the president heck not hardly a criminal or a police man if we mind our own buissness and are "nice" about it. People who are not nice, as Robert states, delving into Satanism black mass tampering with demons and lower astral entities become victims of these things. Just like in this life. It makes no sense that the astral is just a conglommeration of worlds and places people and whatever with no purpose other than the gnostic idea of elevating the so called "intelligencia" to enlightenment. There MIGHT BE ANOTHER REASON. This explains that viewpoint well. If you want to be critics and tell me why it could not be or why you dont think so ...go ahead.
Regards Mustardseed

[Rob]

"THE ASTRAL COULD BE THE SAME"

- "As above, so below; as below, so above"

which would also imply that the reasons for the astral are the same as the reasons for the physical (ie the meaning of life). Whatever you may believe that to be - personally I cant see any other possible reason than to progress, or enjoy where you are.

Rob

[Mustardseed]

I am with you on that one and agree, and as they say

an optimist is someone who enjoys the wiev along the detour.

Just lean back and enjoy the ride.

[exothen]

Hephaestus,

quote:Oh my! reading that just brings up an all manner of contradictions between that and the Bible no matter how much he tries to relate them both.

I didn't see any contradiction between that and the Bible.  Perhaps you can shed some light on any that you noticed.

[Mustardseed]

I was gonna say the same , neither dis I

[Makaveli]

I wonder if he believes in a literal devil because he says "Satan is a personal devil" in his experience here:
http://www.near-death.com/forum/0123.html

[Mustardseed]

Great link I did not know it was there. Maybe so. I think he means a personified Devil. A entity and not some "feeling" or "oblivious being" but who knows. He does seem very sincere and it does make a lot of sense.

[Gandalf]

The above is a fairly straightforward account of a hardcore christian's first encounter with the astral, which is interepreted to fit within his belief system. Te astal works exactly like this, what I mean is that a muslim fundamentalist would see an islamic vision according to his own liking, in much the same way.

Christians do tend to have a hard time in the astral however, such is their obsession with 'evil' and 'demons' etc. If this is what is on their minds, then that is exactly what they will find, esp when fear enters the mix.
For me however, the whole concept of good/evil polar opposites is unfortunatly all two human, but is often used to characterise the astral as well.

Regards,
Douglas

[False Prophet]

quote:The above is a fairly straightforward account of a hardcore christian's first encounter with the astral, which is interepreted to fit within his belief system. Te astal works exactly like this, what I mean is that a muslim fundamentalist would see an islamic vision according to his own liking, in much the same way.

Christians do tend to have a hard time in the astral however, such is their obsession with 'evil' and 'demons' etc. If this is what is on their minds, then that is exactly what they will find, esp when fear enters the mix.
For me however, the whole concept of good/evil polar opposites is unfortunatly all two human, but is often used to characterise the astral as well.

Whom do you serve?

[exothen]

So what are these supposed contradictions with the Bible[?][?][?]

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by False Prophet

Whom do you serve?

I can't shake the feeling that you're allanon with a different IP and the backwards concept that those who rejected your old preachings instead follow the kind of almost dogmatic darkness that you keep going on about.

[ralphm]

The problem with interpreting obe and near death exp. is that they are very subjective-what you think is what you see- so people with certain fears are sure to find them.

[Mustardseed]

(you said)
Christians do tend to have a hard time in the astral however, such is their obsession with 'evil' and 'demons' etc. If this is what is on their minds, then that is exactly what they will find, esp when fear enters the mix.

Hi Douglas
Well maybe you are right , I can see your point. If the astral is ONLY a manifestation of your secret fears we Christians are in trouble since we believe in good and BAD. However if you are wrong and if it is not all a fiction of our imagination I would venture to say that YOU MY FRIEND IS UP THE CREEK WITHOUT A CANOE. Never mind the paddle. So If I am wrong I will be pleasently surprised but if you are wrong you are in deep s***.

Think about it

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

Was that all or did you decide to drop the conversation there

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Was that all or did you decide to drop the conversation there

You seem to be obsessed with evil. I think God has people encounter evil for a reason. one to learn about themselves from it, in the shadows of others we see ourselves. Secondly, to learn how to fight against it. If you avoid something because your afraid of possible evil then evil has already won. If you have faith in your God then you need to let God work through you and be courageous.

There is no daemon war.....except the one within yourself.

[Mustardseed]

Ha what a salute. Well that is your take on me. My take on me is different. Quite different I can assure you. I am interested in the subject and what folks say about it. It is an alternate view of the astral worlds, one with consequences.

People see what they wanna see I think

What do you think XANDER

[Gandalf]

Mustardseed, you can't blame people for thinking that.... after all you were the one who posted this account!

Seriously, though. No-one is really going to take that account seriously as it is quite obvious what happend there. I am not going to explain it again as this has already been dealt with in a previous post, but there is no reason to bring this post up again.
If anything, this post was damaging, especially to newcomers who are trying to get over their initial fears about OBE, a lot of which is ingrained into their belief system.

You might as well have posted that one under the infamous Allanon's topic title of the year: 'ATTENTION ASTRAL PROJECTORS: SATAN DECEIVES YOU'.  I would hazard a guess that you agree with him!

Douglas

[xander]

Originally posted by Mustardseed
]Ha what a salute. Well that is your take on me.

>I'm sorry you took it so defensively.

My take on me is different. Quite different I can assure you.

>since I don't know you I can only speak of what I have read from >your posts. I thought you were feeling bad so I was trying to be >helpful, yet I see you are like a wolf lying in wait for a deer and >have stumbled upon a bull. I hope you prove me wrong that you are a >wolf lying in wait to attack those who reach out a hand to you.

I am interested in the subject and what folks say about it. It is an alternate view of the astral worlds, one with consequences.

>I beleive there are consequences as well. However, consequences >shouldn't keep others from learning and growing.

People see what they wanna see I think

>yes, including YOURSELF.

What do you think XANDER

>I think you are very afraid of that which you don't understand. I >think that you are unable to respond positively when someone reaches >out to you after you have given them cues to do so.

>I shall pray to one of my pagan gods for you.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Xander
Thanks for the prayers. The problem is that no matter what I say in a post, to explain my motives, you seem to have made up your mind about who I am what I think and how and what I believe, and as I said I can do nothing about that.

Just for the record I do not agree with Allanon and have said so many times. I actually felt he was so bad a influence that I recomended he be banned. I never laid in wait for no deer. This would be very deceptive and I try to be as open and honest as I can with all I meet on the net. However I do not expect you to believe me. You seem yourself to be quite obsessed with being the "bull", and your agressive tone indicates to me that you have quite a bit of pride yourself.

I also think you must be a lot younger than I am, I just havnt got the energy to deal with you about this, and I think we should probably just try to stay out of each others hair instead of slugging it out, that might be more productive.

Regards Mustardseed

[James S]

During my time in church I've read and heard many "testemonies" of NDEs. Invariably the people telling the story speak of how they'd lead sinful lives, had evangelising christians tell them about their certain doom, then something's happened like an accident of some kind which caused their heart to stop, they've had an NDE, and come back with all sorts of tales of the hell that awaited them if they didn't repent, and so obviously they gave their lives to the lord to make that scenario go away.

I also had a close wiccan friend tell me of her NDE. She indicated that the "afterlife" region she found herself in to be far more vast, and the possibilities far more expansive than the the somewhat confining christian concept of heaven and hell.

I can't speak from personal experience here, but from what I have been told, by both my wiccan friend and the others, is it appears that people afraid of dying because of the chance they've been "bad" and will go to hell, tend to make their own hell to go to. They take their fears with them and their fears become real. This also coincides with what Frank and Ginny have described in some of their astral rescue experiences.

Regards,
James.

[Mustardseed]

I totally understand this theory James, but it is not proven yet. The other side of the picture could be that since these folks are looking elsewhere for spirituality than the Bible, they have to either admit they are in rebellion to it (thereby also testefying to its absolutes) or they have to discredit it telling folks that "it just aint so".

In my opinion there is no contradiction, but it is obvious that it has to be ridiculed in order for the folks who practice the occult arts not to be afraid of the stuf they deal with. It is also consistant with the Bible which teaches us that some "refused the love of the truth and was sent strong delusion that they might believe a lie" .

The whole idea of fear in the astral makes a lot of sense. Not only in the astral but everywhere. Fear a fear and it will come opon you. This is a positive aspect of the Christian way, it replaces fear with faith. Maybe not for those who does not embrace it but for those who do.

I find it silly to claim that all visions or prophesies or spiritual manifestations claimed by Christians are fake (i.e. "falsely induced by a false faith" ) while on the other hand, any and all revelations experiences had by just about everybody else are valid solely based on the fact that they are ....non Christian. This seems very Churchy to me. Some churches do that. They say if your spirituality is not in Church it must be of the Devil (false), Do you understand my point.


Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

Enclosed is the testemony of a Christian guy , Howard Pittman. He had a near death experience and the following has been edited by me of most of the evangelizing. Please do not flame me for this but if you are interested in another viewpoint read on. If you do not wish to consider other points of view you have your chance to leave now.

By Howard Pittman

(after dying from a ruptured artery he records the following)

The Second Heaven

The Angels withdrew my spirit from my body and carried me immediately into the second Heaven. The second Heaven is the air, the heavenlies, the atmosphere all around us. Only we had to pass through a dimension wall, beyond which flesh cannot go. The second Heaven is the place where Satan has his throne set up right now. The Bible calls him the Prince of the power of the air. (Ephesians 2:2) That's w here all of his demons are which serve him now, that's their place of abode. It doesn't mean that that's where they are; a great deal of them are over here in this physical world right now. But that is their place of abode, the second Heaven.
      The Earth's here below, the second Heaven's up there, and the third Heaven is far beyond the first two. The third Heaven is that which Paul referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:2. That is the place that God and all the Saints and the Angels are. Now there is n o way to pass from this world in which we live to the third Heaven without going through the second Heaven. There's no way to pass from that third Heaven to this world without going through that second Heaven. This is how Jesus was able to materialise and dematerialise, so to speak, in the closed rooms after He arose from the crucifixion. He simply walked back and forth through that dimension wall. They carried me back and forth through that wall several different times on this tour.
      So the An gels withdrew my spirit, took me into that second Heaven, and there they took me on an extensive tour. They allowed me to see the demons and their classifications. Demons were revealed to me in forms that indicated their area of expertise.
      Satan's plan from the day of Adam in the Garden of Eden was to set his throne up over here. He wants flesh to worship him, himself in the flesh. That's his whole plan, that's what the battle is all about, Satan wants his throne on this side of that dimension wall. One of the reasons God allowed me to see what I did is because that is about to happen! That is what this great spiritual warfare is all about now. That's why it's so intensified, that's why the demonic activity on this side of that spiritual wall is so great now. Satan, their god, their king, is about to be revealed incarnate in the body of a man. They call him the Antichrist, and that's about to take place. This is what all this spiritual warfare is all about.
      Over there I got to see these demons working. Over there I discovered a caste system, a social system, a system of discrimination, where the demons up at the top had nothing but contempt for all the ones underneath them. They had a military chain of command structure there that any army on Earth would be proud of! And I discovered that there was no love at all in that world, none! I saw these demons work and carry out their orders with such zeal as they worked, such determination to conquer all flesh, yet they had no l ove for their master. He does not love them, and they have no love for one another! Because no love exists in that world, I actually felt that; it was a morbid, oppressive feeling when I was there! And I was wondering what it was.
      I didn't ask too many questions while I was there, because in the first place I was unhappy with what the Angels were doing. When I got over in that world I don't know how I knew, but I knew where God was! And I already knew that only God, only God could grant my req uest. So I was anxious to get to God, but instead they took me in a different direction and this agitated me! I was irritated the whole time, but I wouldn't dare tell them that! (Laughter) Because I recognised immediately when I went into that world that I was there under the protection of the Holy Spirit, and those Angels escorted me under the protection of the Holy Spirit too.
      It seems strange to say that in Heaven the Angels needed the protection of the Holy Spirit, but I'm talking about th e second Heaven, where Satan is, and if you want to see why they need it, read the 10th Chapter of the Book of Daniel and you'll get a picture of why even the Angels need the protection of the Holy Spirit. Nothing can withstand the power of the Lord.

The Demonic Chain of Command

So as we moved about in this world I got to see all the different classifications, shapes and forms of demons, and some of those things were horrible. I saw some that looked like humans, some that looked like half h uman and half animal, some that looked like animals, and some were in forms so despicable that they would make you nauseated just to look at them! Some of the most hideous and horrible creatures that you could possibly imagine were all spirit beings! They were allowing me to see'm for what they really were.
      And they told me about the sovereign will of Man and how the demons worked through deception. You see, they don't work through any power of their own. They all work in Satan's name; he dele gates a party and he delegates a power. Does that sound familiar? When you work, who do you work for? Do you work in your power? Do you work in your name and in your strength? If you're a Christian, you work in the power of the Holy Spirit, by the authority of our Lord and Saviour, in His Name. Well, this is what the demons do. All that they do, they do in the name of Satan! All that they do, they do by his authority, and when this Bible refers to Satan and his power, it's talking about his unde rlings also. When he gives them authority they can exercise all of his power, just like he exercises it.
      Well, the Angels showed me how the demons worked and they had, as I told you, a caste system, and I'll just tell you about a few of them. At the very top, Satan has what he calls "princes" that are in charge of areas he calls principalities. A principality is a designated area, that's all it is. It may be this church or it may be a nation, or it may be as small as one individual. Whatever b ecomes a great threat to Satan's great lie, he will place a prince over it and designate that as a principality, and he will give this prince all the authority that he needs to destroy or negate it, or put out the light of that Christian, so to speak.
      If you belong to God, if you've been born again, you're in His hands. Satan can't touch your soul, but he can put your light out. He can't take that soul out of God's hand, because God's got the ability to hold that soul. But Satan can put your l ight out as a Christian, and that's what he's trying to do. You'd better believe that if you belong to God, Satan's there every day of your life trying to put your light out.
      As I went through there and saw all of these demons and saw how they worked, I got to see the cream of Satan's crop. They were revealed to me in the form of human beings, only they were like giants, eight feet tall, and they call them "warring demons." To me they all looked like well-built, handsome, bronze soldiers, and they travelled in cadres or groups wherever they went in that world and in this world. And history books and newspapers are full of testimonials to their ability and power, for every war, every rumour of war, every treaty violation, every despicable act by one nation against another is a direct result of their influence! This is how powerful they are! They're continually spending their time trying to create turmoil amongst the nations.
      Then they revealed to me the second most powerful demon, a nd when I met him, he was revealed to me in the form of a human being! I was astonished, since he turned out to be an old friend! As I look back on it now, I kind of would have felt he would have actually been number one in that demon world. He was introduced to me as the demon of greed. Think he's ever been to your house? Well, his influence is widely felt in this world today. If you don't believe it, read the newspapers and listen to the news; you'll see his power all over.
      And we went on do wn the line until we got down to the bottom, to where those demons were in forms that were so despicable that they made you nauseous just to look at them. And these were the demons that were despised more than anything else by their own companions! Down there were all of the demons who were the more morbid, repulsive type, with expertise in all kinds of degeneration and things of this nature. These demons were at the bottom of the social order, despised by their own fellow demons.

Food for thought

Regards Mustardseed