Shape-shifting

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I am not sure what you are asking exactly. Are you wanting to know about shapeshifting on the astral or on the physical? On the astral your astral body is easily manipulated if you as wish. I am doing some research on this but cannot offer you much information right now.

[moontingle]

I'm asking about shape-shifting in the physical. In a book called "The Shaman's Nephew" a boy watches as his uncle flies over his home and waves at him, and then flies back an hour later on his return trip. Maybe this isn't shape-shifting, but being able to bodily fly is surely a feat of a master metaphysician. Also, have you heard of Tibetan monks who fly as though they are taking huge bounces, touching down, flying, and touching down briefly again? Their eyes are focused upward. Is this advanced "Yogic flying"? Again, I'm talking about all of these manifestations in the physical. Guess I'm off topic. What I'm really interested in is shape-shifting... what are you reading about shape-shifting?

Moontingle

[James S]

Hi Moontingle,

Shapeshifting is one of the advanced skills that can be achieved through  practicing shamanism. Its not the kind of thing people who are "interested in finding out" are likely to experience, as it takes a great many years and good guidance from a master to achieve this. It is apparently achievable when one has learned the skills necessary to completely shift between realms - not just consciously, but physically. This is full on sorcery stuff that they practice.

Many people look at some of the really cool stuff the shamans in the remote areas of south america can do, but it is an entire way of life for them. Not that I want to discorage anybody from learning and practicing shamanism - it has some truely wonderful rewards as a spiritual path. I just want to put it into perspective that these people live in isolated areas, they do not have all of the distractions and clock watching lifestyles that afflict us westeners, so they are pretty much living and practacing shamanism 24/7 under the guidance of skilled masters. Thats what it takes to reach the level of ability they have.

Having said that, if you have a lifestyle that is quiet enough that you can seriously put aside time for the study of shamanism, these things are possible with time. The first step here is learning to be able to see beyond our physical realm - learn to be able to "tune in" to the different planes of existance that are around us. Once you develop an awareness for the other realms, the knowledge of how to manipulate your existence within them will start to come.

If you've a library nearby that has any books by Carlos Casteneda have a read of them. He spent a lot of time with south american shamans and got to learn many of their ways.

Regards,
James.

[Nick]

Of course, by way of caution, there needs to be a distinction made between good medicine and bad. Here is a little summary from a Native-American named Hunter Gray:

"The very large Navajo [Dine'] Nation, with now about a quarter of a million
members, occupies reservation land larger than the state of West Virginia.
Navajo culture is quite intact and the tribe is making every effort to
ensure that that continues in enduring fashion. Navajo traditional
medicine -- good medicine -- is very real indeed. A Navajo medicine man
often trains for as many as seventeen rigorous years.

Very real as well, unfortunately, is Navajo witch-craft -- bad medicine --
and with it the Skinwalkers. These, an integral component of Witchery Way,
are profoundly deviant Navajo who, depicted as animals, travel at night --
planting malignant spells and also robbing and plundering.  Far less
prevalent than the forces of good medicine,  witchery and its works  -- bad
medicine -- is extremely dangerous."

A nice writeup on Navajo Skinwalkers can be found by clicking on the following link:
http://web.nmsu.edu/~tomlynch/swlit.skinwalkers.html

[moontingle]

Hey James,

You said 'if you have a lifestyle that is quiet enough that you can seriously put aside time for the study of shamanism, these things are possible with time. The first step here is learning to be able to see beyond our physical realm - learn to be able to "tune in" to the different planes of existance that are around us. Once you develop an awareness for the other realms, the knowledge of how to manipulate your existence within them will start to come'.

Thanks for this, I finally have an inkling as to why in the hell I moved up here into the frozen north. I am a writer and have lots of quiet time to myself and can move into the pristine wilderness whenever I want. I appreciate your inistense of the committment these abilities take to develop, they are not something one should take lightly. I guess that's why medicine people are often looked at as "weird" and unsociable. Often, if it's a child, they can't even have their clothes washed with other people's - guess the energy must stay clean.
RE: the best way to develop awareness for other realms, is the best way to do this to sit outside and appreciate it in meditation?

In Spirit,
Moon

[James S]

Hi Moontingle,

After a quick peek at your bio, and what you've just mentioned about what you do and where you live, I'd say you're in as good a position as you could get - you have the wilderness, you have the time, and I'd dare say you have the affinity - that is, you seem to be very much in tune with your heritage, and you probably feel the call of the earth and the harmony your ancestors had with her in your blood.

Shamanism is very much aligned with nature, and it draws much from the earths abundant energy an resources. Your idea of meditation with this abundance of unspoilt nature around you is spot on, and indeed the best starting point. From there to raising your bodies natural energy levels through that meditation is an easy step. In a meditative state, your affinity with nature will allow her show you what she has to offer.

When you do this, you're eyes become opened to the world around you.  You'd be amazed of how much we don't see of this world that we are in, let alone trying to see beyond it. If you can truly see the world we are in, it makes it easier to differentiate between this world and the others - sort of like grounding your senses.

Ah...I'm rambling now...this is supposed to be about shapeshifting. I do believe its tied in though. The key element in all of this is perception. It is our perception that ultimately defines our reality, and in order to be able to change that reality, we first need to be able to change our perception.

I'd better stop there before I start putting you to sleep []

All the best,
James.

[moontingle]

No, no, quite the opposite, keep talking. Glad you read my bio to see where I'm coming from. The problem is ... I've written about the things shamans can do, but never been shown the "how" of it. No, that's not true, the old people said they would get up, drink tea, and just be quiet. On the reservations, that's easy to do. I've just never been able to slow down enough to heed their words. Too bad it's so late in life I'm coming to it. But at least I know I want to dedicate time to going a bit higher now.
On a reserve just north of me are the Dene, when they chant with their drums it's like the sound old trees and mountains would make if we could hear them they sing. So, we dance around a huge fire all night and that is extremely altering. Very hypnotic. Then the elders make their prophecies for the coming winter. Unfortunately, when the ceremony is made these days, no one comes.
I know there is so much more to nature than we see if we don't really look. We have a sweatlodge in the back. One time I was in there with a group of visiting Tibetan monks -- it was the national year of Tibet -- and small balls of blue light danced around the blackness.   A rattle hit me on the head very hard. Telling me to wake up! But I didn't, until I hit this site and started talking to aware and well spoken people like you.
When the green goddess of nature finally got your attention, when was that? Re: shape-shifting, I do know people who play around with time a lot. Also, just thought of this. Was in a shamanic class with an Incan guide and he said when a shaman drinks water, he thinks of  where the source of the water might be, and hears the rushing waterfall it was once a part of.  Definitely, nature is the basis of where they source from. Where do you source from? Is Austrialia your homeland?

Moontingle

[James S]

Hi Moontingle,

Australia is where I was born and have lived all my life, but thanks especially to my mother and her heritage, my heart is back with the celtic pagans of Scotland and Ireland. I believe it's through my celtic blood that feel the earth and her moods.

I've always had the utmost admiration for the traditional ways of the native Americans, and I've found some uncanny similarities between elements of native American culture and the celts, almost like they've been taught the same thing by the same people.

I wouldn't be too worried about what stage of your life you come to these things. I'm very much aware of where I need to be and what I need to do, but with my somewhat messy suburban lifestyle, I find it very difficult to commit to the time I really need to take for my spiritual path. In many ways I regret this, and believe that I won't truely slow down enough until I am much older, but in other ways I feel my spirit guide using this fact to her advantage. Fortunately I live only an hour's drive from some wonderfull national forests among a small but beautifull mountain range that I frequent. I also have a large botanic park very close to home that is my sanctuary when I need to sit and talk with nature.

The goddess first got my attention (as I believe it now in hindsight) when I was about 14, by showing me an affinity I had with elements of the weather. When I'd ignored her for long enough after that, she came and stood right in front of me in my own home, I think it was March of last year. That was the rattle that hit me hard on the head!!!
Since then we've had some very productive conversations, and she found for me an "astral" guide who is more like a teacher.

Now all I've got to do is keep paying attention!

It's been through both the Earth goddess and the teacher guide that I have been taught about some of the things you've mentioned regarding looking to the source of things in nature. I find it truely amazing how some of the smallest, simplest things in nature, things that we take for granted every day, can be a source of such energy. When you know how to "percieve" it, even a small flower radiates an increadible ammount of pure living energy.

I imagine you've found much of this yourself while learning about traditional medicines. I believe they work just as much by means of subtle energies as they do chemical compounds.

It sounds like you've had some wonderful experiences, and you've had some real exposure to shamanism. Do you get the feeling that your spirit is being pulled in this direction? It does sound to me like a logical progression for you.

Just as a fanciful thought - if you could choose any animal to turn into, what would it be?

Kind regards,
James.

[moontingle]

Yes, I feel very drawn in this direction. I have books to read, and the land, and an excellent Elder friend on a reserve 6 hours to the south, but I don't get to see him enough. I'm working on a book, though, that will take me into the shamanistic realm in my research, about my great, great grandmothers who were all medicine women. I guess if I'm ready -- the teacher will appear.

Your Celtic background ... how wonderful. Is it true they used to leave offerings near springs in thanks to the water spirit? I've always thought that was so wonderful.

I also edited a book written by an old elder, who wrote that when he was born, if you didn't have medicine power, you were poor. When he was only five, his family was camped by a lake, and his mother woke him up to hand him a pail to go get some water. The lake was a mirror, and there wasn't a breath of a wind. When he was dipping his pail, suddenly an old man came up out of the water, with long white hair dripping. Little George screamed and dropped his pail and ran up to his mother, who was watching the whole thing. She was angry and told him "That was your grandfather trying to give you his medicine power" and then he said everyone in the family was upset with him. "I was poor the rest of my life," George says.

My grandfather, on his death bed, revealed some of his medicine. He said he would go and play handgames (a guessing/betting game)with the frogs underneath the water. I could never understand how that was done, but I guess he was doing it in the astral realm.
 
If I could be any animal hmmmmm ... You've got me stumped there. You know, I think I'd be a chickadee. That's a little black-hooded bird we have here, and even on the coldest days she is singing away and always chirps in an extraordinatry way when summer's near. I think I'd really like to be able to fly. So, also maybe an eagle.

Now it's your turn. And why would you want to be this animal?

In Spirit,
Moon

[James S]

Definitely an eagle for me. So often I dream of flying.

Our champion of the air in Australia is the Wedge-tailed Eagle. It has a wing span of between 2 - 3 meters. I used to watch a family of these eagles fly around a mountain reserve that I used to live next to. They'd find the thermals and just cruise around for hours. They play a lot. Flying is not just something they do when looking for food, they play in the air currents. A pilot friend of mine told me of watching a Wedge-tailed Eagle fly right into the face of an oncoming storm - just for fun. Something apparently these birds are inclined to do a fair bit. This bird was playing in air turbulance that my friend said would quite easily have ripped his small plane to pieces.

When you look one of these birds in the eye you know that we are not the superior species on earth. I'm quite in awe of them. If not an eagle, then some kind of parrot - the clowns of the bird kingdom. I laugh when I watch some parrots fly - they twist and turn in the air like they've got broken gyroscopes.

I don't know much of celtic lore, but you are right about leaving offerings to the water spirits. Water is regarded as a sacred life force of the earth. I believe this to be another of the common elements among our ancestors, and indeed among most of the old races of Earth.

What you told me of your grandfather reminds me of some of what's in a n e-book that has been promoted through this site - The Path by Esmeralda Arana. Here's a link if you're interested:
http://spiritdimension.com/wicca/020/esmeralda-arana-the-path---a-practical-approach-to-sorce.htm

She speaks of learning to use your astral sight, to start seeing things that "overlayed" in this world. I wonder if that was what your grandfather did? Going into the astral is one thing, but there is so much of the "astral" that is part of this world we are in.

Take care,
James.

[moontingle]

I just took my everyday walk down a cutline and into the trees but it was the best yet. Thanks to you I really started noticing things, and thinking about them in a new way. I even brought a bunch of dry, winter-dead plants into the house and arranged them in a vase. The textures and designs are all unique and amazing. Some are fuzzy, some are curly ribbons, one has tiny "pine cones", each one about 1/2 inch long, and then there's brilliant red rose hips to add a flash of crimson. I really appreciate everything I saw - not just thinking "oh, it's cold, winter's coming on and it's going to get even colder blah, blah and on into negativity. I have two places I stop and sit in and I've made little altars there. Good energy, for sure. Now when I look at my winter "flowers" (sitting right beside my computer) it reminds me of the perennial beauty of nature and to go deeper.

What color is your champion eagle there in Australia? Are you near the ocean, because swimming beings have fascinated me, but I've hardly spent time near water being so land-locked here. We, of course, have American Bald Eagles, and Golden Eagles. I was parked by a little lake to the east of my house last summer and an eagle swooped down, caught a fish, and ate it in a tree right beside my car. I watched as it ripped the fish apart, threw down the intestines and small birds came to peck at them and carry them away.

Thanks for the book suggestion. It looks amazing and I'm going to order it from Amazon.

Can you say a bit about what the nature goddess has had to say to you, or is it too personal?

Also, my son is studying Australia in Social Studies (grade 4). What part of Australia do you live in? We'll look it up since he brought home a big map.

Best, Moon  

[moontingle]

Hey James S, where are you? i miss my daily dose of shamanic talk. I ordered the book you suggested by Esmeralda, along with 2 others. One by a shamaness who lives in Siberia. The picture on the cover of the book blew me away. It's of a fire, with spirit eagles flying out of it. And prayer flags hanging from a pole beside the fire pit. Should be interesting.

I have so many shamanic stories from old NAtive Elders I've met and now I have an inkling as to how the seemingly fantastic can be possible, where as once I thought they were just far flung stories. We also have a shaking tent ceremony up here. The diviner is trussed up, her fingers of both hands intertwined together and wrapped with rope and she's then rolled up in blankets and tied again. The lights are darkened and the spirits come and in an instant she is untied and the spirits will answer questions from the audience. One spirit, in a ceremony I went to, said "What you see of your life here on earth is so small. It's just the beginning ..." which says to me the shamanic study thing is the way I want to go. There IS so much more.
Oh, and at the ceremony, when the lights went on, those people who were doubting the authenticity of the ceremony -- the spirits mussed up their hair. Those with the new "do's" admitted, afterwards, they were just there out of curiosity.

 
Do you have stories of such ceremonies from the Aborigines of your country? Oh, I see you live in Melbourne? Is it an open-minded city? Have you met Robert Bruce?

Waiting patiently ...
Moon

[James S]

Hello Moontingle,

Sorry for not replying sooner - busy day!

No I don't mind telling you of my meetings with the spirit of nature, but I'll PM you with more details once I get home from work & relax a little.

I'm Glad you got Esmeralda's book. I'm ever so slowly reading through it. Don't much like reading things off the screen for long periods, and the protection on the book wont let you print it out (I think). T'aint natural!

I'd also love to hear more of your experiences. Mine seem like nothing by comparison!

Take care, I'll chat with you soon.

- James.

[Nagual]

What I read about "shape shifting" was not realy about becoming the animal physicaly, but more like getting it's perception of the world...

[wisp]

I see it like Nagual has said. Well said Nagual.

My experience with this goes along perception lines.Placing rituals aside, a person has it within his/herself to make use of instinctual nature. Since the instinctual nature of the human is more difficult to define, an animal will do. For instance, the cat, the lion, or any other feline can be used as a visionary tool to access a searching out of something for the person involved. For me I visualize a cat in search.I observe the cat, though someone else may become the cat. I observe this cat which is most likely of my own creation. This search will often pan out in some kind of clue, or an additional discovery. It will come to mind.Sound can be an additional option or help.Whatever works by producing a result.
Just be careful what you are creating and possibly mobilize. Conscious awareness is better than other means.
The kind of animal used, usually has the instinctual characterists of what is needed to accomplish something.

[moontingle]

Thanks for that, Nagual and Wisp. I think it goes even further than that, or maybe this isn't shape-shifting, it's more like spirit help from animals. An old medicine man named Bekah had seagull medicine. Why the lowly seagull? Well, apparently seagulls are used to eating garbage and have amazing regurgitation capacity. All birds do, I guess, since they feed their young that way, but seagulls even more so because they're such scavengers. Bekah could suck out disease from a person's body and spit it out, easily. So, he was in great demand at a time when there were no doctors around. So, I get what you're saying, Wisp, about choosing certain animals for the task at hand.
But, I don't get this: another man had medicine for spiders. Once we were in my truck and a guitar song came on. His son turned off the radio, a bold move for a shy little guy. I asked later why he did that, and he said something like "The strings of the guitar were too much like the strings of a spider web. Grandpa would "get too strong" if he listened to that. (Huh? Beyond me...)
Another woman had medicine for lightning. Again, if you took a flash picture of her, she would "get too strong". Interesting, eh? Any inklings of the dynamic and relationship going on here?

Moon

[wisp]

Some interesting thoughts and questions Moon. Too bad I have to run off to work now. Here are some quick ideas I've come up with.I'll think more on it and get back with you.

Yes, your probably right, the example I gave may not be shapeshifting in the sense it's intented, but instead, animal help.

It could be the young boy is receptive and the added higher vibrations of sound (the radio) intensified something. There are many thoughts about spiders. I don't like touching them, but I like spiders more than most. I allow them to co-exist with me. I try never to kill a spider. Anyway the spider has it's own history. The spider web does too. The web is associated with several things. One of these are geometric patterns. It could be the boy receives information or a sensation from the geometric pattern of the web. Geometric patterns are related to paths of altered states of consciousness. He is probably vulnerable and unprepared for what the altered states presents, and with the possible higher vibrational levels triggered by the radio, it could be too much. Just my thought on it. And too, the strumming of a guitar suggests "hands on", and this is may be the approaching of manifestation. At least, how I would imagine it.
The lightening is the use of electric energy some way. This involves the element air. The flash may serve as a trigger in the same as the radio or higher vibrational levels perhaps. My mother once claimed she was struck by lightening once and it was followed with what she described as an obe. That day, I have to say, the conditions were right for a lightening strike. She didn't have any apparent signs of ill-effect from the experience. She does have a past of migraines, and bright lights are her trigger for these, so who knows? Maybe there is a connection some way. For some reason I'm referring to this great book a lot today, "Animal-Speak" by Ted Andrews. This book has helped my understanding of animals a lot. It also made mention that the air (connected with lightening), is associated with the mind. I think instinctual qualities can come from any parts of the body. It's kind of interesting that this author made a distinction about "mind", when talking about the air element. Anyway, for what it's worth.

I go to a website where the main guy there has talked of his past with sweatlodges, and other things along the lines you have spoken of. Let me know, I can send you the link.

Different healing methods interest me. So far I haven't been able to directly utilize healing methods. However I'm big on preventive measures through thought techniques. The most healing I've experienced were through who I know now as "spirit guides". There is probably a connection to this and Shaman medicine. I'm finding that many things are connected when you can find the common thread (strand(s) from the spiderweb, to the matrix of materialization/fabrication).[]

[James S]

From what I've picked up on from writings by those who have studied the true shamans in isolated forest areas such as Carlos Casteneda, shape shifting IS a physical ability, that is, they REALLY DO change form into that of an animal. This is part of why their practice has been described as sorcery. At this level, there seems to be very little to separate physical from astral. Another reported ability is that of being able to make the body insubstantial, and shift the physical body into the astral realms.

This all seems highly questionable, and probably why the idea of shapeshifting is watered down to a more "acceptable" concept. It seems though from those who've been allowed to study these people, that what they are able to do completely defies all natural laws.

At a lower level is the concept of entering the perception of animals - being able to look through their eyes, sit in the back of their minds and go along for the ride.

James.

[Nagual]

James, I am pretty sure that, if you re-read Castaneda's books, it is said many times that, if someone was a witness of the experience (shape-shifting), he would not see any animal...  By example, when Castaneda shape-shifted into a crow and flew above the desert...  and then asked Don Juan if people would have seen him as a crow, he was answered no.  Basicaly, he was only a crow for himself (and Don Juan).  He was perceiving the world as a crow.

[James S]

I stand corrected. I must not have been paying proper attention to what I've read.
If this is the case, then shape shifting is more a form of astral projection than it is a physical act.

Funny, I was sure I read articles about shamans abiities to actually alter their physical structure. I believe it might have been Esmeralda Arana that hinted on this, bu tthen most of her work is based on Casteneda's.

[wisp]

According to author, Robert Moss, in his book, "Conscious Dreaming", he states in a case involving a magician during a seance, the magician went so far as to take control of the spirit helper (if I understood correctly).The book states, "During a seance, it's alleged, a tiger appears at least once, though experts debate whether it is the real animal or only a were-tiger."

More in the book, it states Shamans shape-shift into their power animal, and also send (project) duplicants to other locations for a purpose.

The author in Animal-Speak also talked of shape-shifting, but was non specific of the potential for physical change to occur.

Each book made reference to shape-shifting as a magic practice.

Then there is the possibilty of taking possession of a real animal I would imagine. The nearest possibility I can see (IMO), is the synchronistic appearance of an animal. Synchrony works this way, yet many would be skeptical of this before any other method for some reason.

Moon,
I was reading in this book that the treatment for good health is what brought about the dream-catcher (based on the spider's web). The dream-catcher is designed to honor the spider which brought this healing method.

[Ybom]

Not sure how to put this really. James S, what you said about doing Astral things in the Physical, but I do think it's possible (of course I could just say anything is possible, but that's cheating in my opinion. wisp, you're not wrong either, and I really don't mean to go there (just stating where I stand).

I want to ask so much about the shamans, but I don't want to spend hours making questions, so I'll just sit back and watch some more for a while if that's ok with everyone.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Just because one person says that Physical Shape Shifting is not possible is no reason to change one's view, James. [] I have read that it is possible, but physical shifting is almost always a by-product of something deeper and not the goal.

It is hard to find much information on on shape shifting. The entire subject seems to be secretive so good reliable information is hard to come by. It maybe because it is rather removed from the "norm" and has been very misunderstood as well as persecuted and condemned. Those with true information on this are probably reluctant to part with it to just anyone and publicly. But I think that the journey is at the heart of what Shamanism and Shape Shifting are about, so even though the path might be more difficult and require more work it just makes it that much more rewarding.

Whether physical shifting is real or not does not really matter I do not think. Maybe some day you will, or maybe you won't. It is the spiritual path and experiences that are important. Experiencing what the animal experiences is the lesson, whether you physical shift into an animal, experience it on a spiritual realm, or spiritual shift on the physical is not really the important thing.

[silentfox]

[]i read a book and it said that when you go into the astral dimention and learn something you can draw thoes abileties through a dimention into the physical world and use them.[]

[Nagual]

Just wanted to add that, the use of "physicaly" is a little tricky...
I was not exactly saying that it was not "physical" at all; I said that it was only for the shape-shifter and his "audience"...  Hard to explain since I am still trying to understand it.  By example, for Castaneda, he was "physicaly" a crow; he had the anatomy (body, vision...) of a crow.  For Don Juan, he saw Castaneda as a sort of crow (maybe a little messed up since the shifting was not perfect).  But for bystanders, they would not have seen a crow; they would have seen someone sleeping or drunk-looking.  At least, that's what I understood from the books...