Skeptic with Serious Projection Problems!

[Opiate]

Jeebus! u cant edit on this forum... damn. Wish i had thought that post thru a little more [:O]

[lullabi]

You can edit... Click the thingy above the post.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Anyway, im a kid who lives in NZ, and believe in science/math more than anything else. Im very disturbed with christianity, dogmatic views that im surrounded with etc at the moment so im definitly not a practicing christian, nor any other religion. But now the problem is, that my life views are a bit boring (as in, i feel bored that there will be no after life etc). So i dug around and astral projection could put me on my way to a more spiritual path... but considering how i cant project, and how all my body functions seem to be preventing me from projecting, the only conclusion i can come too seems to be that, its all just bullocks

Religion and spirituality are two different things. No dogma is required. But studying religions can give you ideas about spirituality. I view religion like stepping stones to bigger things. A true look at Christianity reveals truths. It is not all about the fundamentalists that get put in the news or those that try to "save" you. Likewise there are many religions throughout the world and all hold some wisdom.
Now, why do you feel bored merely because you think there will be no afterlife. So what if there is nothing beyond death. Would that be so bad to just be nothing? Sounds rather peaceful to me. But from your post it appears that you atleast suspect there is more and you wish to explore it. So you have taken the first step toward a spiritual path. Congratulations! []

quote:Can u interract in the astral plain with other projectors?? I mean talk to them, give them a message, phone them up and ask them about it? I hear its very easy to forget a projection or dream but surely if you are both projecting and its an important experiment, it would be remembered...

Yes to your questions, you can interact with the astral. Views may vary but I think that you are on the astral right now. It is part of you and you it. You are just not aware of it currently because you are focusing on the physical.
You would be surprised how easy it is to forget. Have you not woken up, remember having a detailed dream, but suddenly cannot remember anything about it? It is easy, but with practice you get better at remembering.

quote:Also, will it be possible to create a vessel in the astral? I would like to practice martial arts there if i ever made it...

So I have read you can create anything you want. But why practice martial arts on the astral? You can do that on the physical. But do as you wish as you can do anything you desire.

quote:Well. I have many doubts about my higher self and projections now. Ive succeeded in bringing on vibrations many times, and failed from there onwards.

Very common. Many people can easily get the vibrations but cannot go farther. Maybe you are concentrating too much on the vibrations. This can cause you to fail to project. Try being passive, relaxed, and just sort of fall into a projection. It is kind of like riding a bike, you have to find that balance. It takes awhile but with practice you finally get it.
Doubts are not bad. Question and explore everything. Don't take it at face value. Nothing wrong with that.

quote:Likewise when i feel the vibrations, i begin to concentrate on an image underneith my eyelids.. this so called "astral vision".. instead my eyes just twitch and i feel compelled to open my eyes, stare at the blackness under my eyes, or just continue feeling the vibrations until they disapear 30 seconds later. If i imagine myself moving out of my body it simply wakes up my torso. Now i ask you this: How can you experience or feel your surroundings when you lose the sense of feeling (and i dont mean emotional) in your astral body?? If you have to invision yourself moving everywhere TO move everywhere then you really arent feeling anything at all, or simply you cant, or i dont.

Maybe you are trying too hard. Just relax and be more passive. Let it come and fall into it. Don't get frustrated.

quote:Now here is where i begin to doubt this super computer incredibe unconscious thingy ma bob im supposed to have. How come everything ive ever dreamt up has been based on something i have seen before. Should i not be able to conjure up surroundings based on my emotions? I mean, in my dreams, everything ive conjured up has been something ive seen or based on something ive seen, and yet i can create places in my CONSCIOUS that are more interesting. Ive had dreams where i would be talking to a girl and i cant remember her name, i then walk away from her and ask everyone around me, "what is her name??" and my subconscious cant remember it. The next day i remembered the dream and thought about it myself, and remembered her name, which my subconscious could not do. Another problem ive been having, is that ive been playing games most of my life. Now when i dream a setting, the entire setting is created based on game mechanics and structuring. In other words, my worlds are just a mesh with a texture over the top.. very frustrating actually...

Well I must give you my sympathy. Most of my dreams involve things I have never seen before. I have had some weird dreams that would not be possibe on the physical. I do not know what to tell you other than try remembering your dreams. Maybe you are having them but just don't remember them.

quote:Robert Bruce really could have made some of this stuff clearer in his treatise.

I doubt it. It is very hard to put nonphysical things and experiences into words. There are things that just cannot be comprehended in 3D terms much less put into words. If you ever project then maybe you will understand. It is really difficult to describe the astral in physical terms.

quote:If anyone has made it this far... ive got one more question/problem. The reason i wish to go to the astral realm is simply to explore my own mind and find answers. I know this is probably the same for everyone, but within myself i feel like im missing something. Everyone feels like they are the "one" from the matrix, and so do i. I feel like i should be the one with the sword who is the hero and has the side kicks with the axe and the bow (so to speak heh)... and i want to explore this because i obviously belong somewhere... reaching the point in my life where i have to decide which direction to go, and i feel that i cant make that descision purely consciously (i want to go everywhere and do everything!) Perhaps if i can look into past lives?

You do not have to project in order to explore yourself. Meditate, clear your mind, and look for the answers you seek. Look within, for that is where you are and where you can find out about yourself. This may be easier to learn about yourself than projecting.

[Opiate]

hehe thanks for the fast reply... i can get one more thing out of the way before i go to sleep or practice now which is all good..

Practice martial arts in the astral... well there are many reasons. Firstly balance should be less of an issue, or better yet it should improve my balance in the physical by practicing in the astral... i assume anyway... Also, less likely to get tired, no hurting people so i can let the animal loose from within heh sounds corny but its so true... I sort of expect that weightless feeling u see in crouching tiger hidden dragon?? i hate making refernces to that movie because its an all new stereotype on martial arts... but what the heck...

The no1 reason tho... is that i hear time is a little distorted. This is what i need most... i need time! Basically, if i could slow down my life to half its speed = bliss! I would like nothing more than a place to just float off to and sit and meditate or think for hours on end...
Oh yeah... which leads me to another problem. When i dream, my dreams dont seem to slow down time, in fact my nights seem to go by even faster when i dream! What happend to distorted time, hours in the astral equaling minutes in the real?

Yeah... thanks again guys... i think im gonna learn a lot here. Maybe ill be able to contribute in the future..

[Jeff_Mash]

Hey there Opiate,

Fallnangel77 had some good points for you, which I won't go over again.  There is one thing, though, which I would like to comment on.

Before you can be truly successful at having an astral projection/OBE, you must first have the right attitude.  Now I can tell from your post that you really, REALLY want to have one.  The mistake that people make is that they think that this IS "the right attitude!"  It's not!

The physical is just a reflection of the astral (albeit a dense reflection), and in the astral, thought equals creation.  So what you think will come to pass.  We must be careful about our thoughts and preconceptions in this physical world as well, because it will affect our efforts to project.

In just the first couple of paragraphs, you made the following statements:

quote:...considering how i cant project...

quote:...my body functions seem to be preventing me from projecting...

quote:...its all just bullocks...

quote:...I have many doubts about my higher self and projections...

Those are just a few that JUMPED out at me.  I didn't even have to look for them.  The point is that even though you really WANT to project, you still have these contradicting thoughts which could be holding you back.

The sooner you catch yourself negating the experience, and the sooner you convince yourself that you WILL do this, and it's NOT super hard, then you will make a lot of progress.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm coming down on you.  Even I have work to do in this area.  But I have seen a significant improvement in my projections once I started to analyze my thoughts and change the way I was looking at things.

[Michael_E]

quote:Originally posted by Opiate



Practice martial arts in the astral...

Ive thought about putting together something on an astral martial art, i would call it, ASTRAL-DO! Mostly, right now, a manuel on such a thing would be short if i were to write it because certain theories would need to be tested, and on top of that to test them i might have to go looking for trouble which isnt a good idea. what i can say about some kind of martial art is that kicking or punching or stabbing or slicing or whatever doesnt necessarily cause harm but the intent behind such an action is what can leave an effect. For example if i take out a knife in the astral and stab some neg with it it could have no effect whatsoever if there is no intent behind the cut. once you see that its the intent that does the action you can get rid of the idea of a violent action to protect yourself and simply weild intent to get rid of nasties.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Time distortions can work both ways. Sometimes sped up, sometimes slowed down.

[psyko_tripper]

Wow guys, I really love this thread!!

So many wise words[:I]

Peace
Psyko-tripper

[holy reality]

Opiate, first off, tool reference? Reference to what Marx said? Both?

Second, you sound a lot like me.

"The no1 reason tho... is that i hear time is a little distorted. This is what i need most... i need time! Basically, if i could slow down my life to half its speed = bliss! I would like nothing more than a place to just float off to and sit and meditate or think for hours on end..."

I wish I could do the same, but I never have enough time.

About them not knowing the girls name and people in your dreams being dumb and your environments being lifeless... I kind of have the same problems.

First off, the most realistic environments I tend to have are usually when I am not lucid... people will converse with me, and I with them, and it will seemingly make perfect sense.

When I'm lucid I encounter many lifeless people that seem zombie like. Bruce calls them "shells".....

I think (possibly) these are there because when you become lucid you have a tendency to step OUT of the defined dream you are in, and into your own creations, and your mind doesn't really know what to do with these creations.

it's like, if you are in a hospital in your dream with lots of people in it, as long as you stay in that scene you are still bound by some of it's rules (like the Matrix) if in the dream the people are intelligent and you can interact with them, it's because that's the way they were to begin with and your subconscious is kind of still running that "sub program"

If you try to run through walls you're gonna have problems... if you leave the dream scene and try to force yourself into a location, you're also going to have problems. Assuming you can get where you want to go (not terribly hard) you still have to account for what mode your subconcious is running in, and how to get it to do what you want it do.

Then, if we are to believe in astral planes and that not all dreams are 100% confined to your own mind, we have to take into account just what plane this lucid dream we are in lies. Perhaps some of the lifeless people are creations of your mind, while the intelligent ones are real dreamers/projectors.

It's really so much to think about and I'm not sure it's something we'll ever be able to understand... the only thing you can really do is read what other people have to say and use trial and error.

Sometimes my dreams are vivid and real life like, sometimes (almost always) they are Alice like... I've found that I can sometimes even hear my subconscious directing other people's actions if I stop and listen....

Which has led me to wonder if we are each character in our dreams and are dealing with a split mind kind of thing?

Well at any rate rather than working on projecting I'd work on having more realistic and satisfying lucid dreams and getting to the point where you can stay in them for what feels like longer than 15 minutes and to where if you wake up you can have a fairly high success rate at pulling yourself back into the dream where you left off.

This will improve your dream recall and give you familiarity with movement and character interaction and how to manipulate your mind and environment... and then you might feel more confortable and confident when you try to induce OBE...

Though I'm skeptical as to whether there is any difference whatsoever between OBE and lucid dreaming... and whether you really can go to REAL places that almost exactly mirror the physical world when you leave your body.

And I've never been to any "higher planes" so to speak, although twice I think I stumbled into the so called Buddhic (or whatever one the rainbow one is).. I can't recall how it looked other than that it took my breath away and made me cry and I got there on accident... this was 2 years ago when I first started lucid dreaming, and I've yet to go back.

[Ybom]

I think I'll go ahead and post something that RB has in his Astral Dynamics, not completely quoted, but the essential idea behind it so you can gain some insight as to why you think you're projecting wrong Opiate.

Shadow Memory is the memory your projected selves contain to be downloaded to your brain after you've gone oob.

Mind Split is a technique that you have to project an exact copy of your conscience elsewhere. Sometimes this "replication" can go unnoticed if you're not paying enough attention or you lack ability.

Now, you've said you've felt vibrations and then they went away and you thought you failed. Maybe you didn't, you just didn't let your projected double come back in time before you fell asleep, and you didn't know how to properly access those memories. (if you want more info I'm gonna say you need the book, all documented there, including potential side effects)

Also, I sometimes have felt like you do about being "The One", but you have to know that that's your path before any of the amazing things happen. I feel like something very big is on my path personally, but to access more I need to get rid of a big black blockage (could be anything really, probably just unleashing the human "limits" for myself, I'd prefer to stop talking about it now though before I get too long winded about it). Small steps: walk to the door, pull out the key, unlock door, open it, walk inside. Big step: smash the door in hastily and spend the better part of the day cleaning up all that mess and replacing the door...shoulda took small steps.

[Opiate]

"Now, you've said you've felt vibrations and then they went away and you thought you failed. Maybe you didn't, you just didn't let your projected double come back in time before you fell asleep, and you didn't know how to properly access those memories."  

hmm ive taken this into consideration but i really dont think i succeeded. My conscious was in body the whole time, and it really didnt feel like going to sleep. Its like litrally sitting down, putting your body to sleep, trancing, vibrating for about a minute, feeling disapears and u open your eyes. When i go to sleep, at least i can be sure that ive gone to sleep, which is not the case here...

The problem with my skepticism, is that i have views on what the astral plain will be like, and unfortunatly they arent as amazing as what i want them to be like. Couple that with all the wrong feelings and experiences in dreams, and you have a very borderline believer. Your right in saying i really want to AP, but my experiences so far can only make it increasingly difficult... Im gonna work on this a little more vigorously in the next few weeks...

How many of you have achieved AP? I could call on one of you for help on an attempt?

[NecroGod]

Opiate,

Well, my friend, I feel alot like you in a way. I have never had a conscious OBE/AP to speak of. I have found difficulty when the vibrations arise, or sometimes just lying there. I frequently sense my arms, especially my right arm, tensing up trying to 'raise', and have to make a conscious effort to relax it. I admit, it's difficult and tedious sometimes.

The only thing I can say to you (and myself!) is keep trying and keep knowing it will work. How can you know? I'll share a little epiphany I had with you, it's a simple analogy, but it never really hit home untill I witnessed it...

I have a son, going on 8 months old now. He is almost able to crawl now. He will get up on his hands and knees, rock back and forth, sometimes he'll even make it a small ways forward. Eventually he will get avidly frustrated with himself and start crying and whineing (untill he's picked up of course). In very little effort on my part, and very much confidence I can walk over and kneel down in front of him without loosing my balance. But that shows how far I've come.

The point is, long ago we all had problems developing the simple skills we take very much for granted today. Simple physiological accomplishements every developed human is capable of. But we paid for those accomplishments we take for granted today with alot of frustration before we got here.

Eventually, if we stick with it, we'll come to terms with out abilities. I figure even if I don't do it in this life time, at least I kept trying for it.

Hang in there, keep us updated on your progress and we'll fortify you with a place that will help you hold your interest in these goals. []

[Nahaz]

I went through something similar about 12 years ago. I had a sudden all consuming desire to know myself. I found what i was looking for. The inner connection with the source. It is a great experience, feels like i exist inside and outside of the dream. Having knowledge of your self empowers you completely. The vast majority of human fears cease to grip you. Instead you feel love for all beings, which is a reflection of your love for self.

The conscious desire to find yourself is a sure sign you will. I can well appreciate the sense of wanting to climb to the top of the mountain now, rather than later. It seems so hard when you're climbing!

[Opiate]

Nahaz hehe good to see another new zealander!!

Yeah... ill definitly share any findings... But ill try to keep it unbiased and as scientific as possible [^] !! Its the only way to learn for sure!

[chupacabra]

Forgive me if I'm re-stating a point someone else has made but...

It seems obvious to me that your beliefs about the afterlife and skepticism about AP are severly limiting what you see in your dreams. I imagine your mind and subconscious isn't allowing anything fantastic to occur because that might upset and possibly damage the security and solidity of your fixed beliefs. I think the mind is very afraid of that happening, for all of us, far more afraid than we know. The fact that you can imagine fantastic things is OK for the subconscious because at the same time you are aware that you are "just making it up" However, in dreams we experience these fantastic things as real, which your subconscious blocks because that experience is a much more potent threat to it's currently held picture of reality.

But your partial belief that AP is possible, to me, is incongruent with your disbelief in the afterlife. It's almost like you're trying to backwards-engineer a belief in the afterlife: having an OOBE would prove it's validity. The thing is, you're going to have a heck of time having an OOBE without first accepting the possibility of some sort of non-physical existence.

[Carlos]

Hi,

You hit the nail on the head. In my personal, humble opinion, religion in general is the reason why there are so much spiritual darkness upon the face of this physical plane. Upon years of research, I came to the conclusion that religion is basically a tool used to manipulate minds, to keep people in obscurity. We are all individual intelligences in our way to progression, and those who are willing to roll up their sleaves to reasearch and explore will find true knowledge. True knowledge comes with personal effort and personal responsibility.  And for those like you who mind science and want to truly explore the non-physical universe, may want to check out the following site. www.gsns.org. This is a serious site for serious people.

Something about OBE.  Anyone who really wants to learn how to successfully do  it, needd to get a copy of Astral Dynamics book by  Robert Bruce and study it and put it to practice. There is no easy way about it. Like any science or art, it takes personal effort and dedication.



I hope this help.

[Opiate]

Hey people, this is my first post in this community, and typically being a bit of a moocher im gona make a huge page of complaints/problems and questions.. basically if u cant be stuffed dont worry about this thread, maybe someone will come along and help me out. Also, i am notorious for huge posts, please bare with me...

Anyway, im a kid who lives in NZ, and believe in science/math more than anything else. Im very disturbed with christianity, dogmatic views that im surrounded with etc at the moment so im definitly not a practicing christian, nor any other religion. But now the problem is, that my life views are a bit boring (as in, i feel bored that there will be no after life etc). So i dug around and astral projection could put me on my way to a more spiritual path... but considering how i cant project, and how all my body functions seem to be preventing me from projecting, the only conclusion i can come too seems to be that, its all just bullocks []

Ill start with the usual questions you've probably been asked a million times, please dont refer me somewhere ive read the entire RB treatise and lots of other stuff id much prefer a quick answer...

Can u interract in the astral plain with other projectors?? I mean talk to them, give them a message, phone them up and ask them about it? I hear its very easy to forget a projection or dream but surely if you are both projecting and its an important experiment, it would be remembered...

Also, will it be possible to create a vessel in the astral? I would like to practice martial arts there if i ever made it...

Well. I have many doubts about my higher self and projections now. Ive succeeded in bringing on vibrations many times, and failed from there onwards.

For example, if i succeed in making a dream lucid, i usually wont be able to choose my movements. Even with a huge amount of willpower i only succeed in waking up a part of my body or becoming conscous that i am not walking down the street, but am in fact, lieing down on my bed with a numb arm. In ALL my lucid dreams, the only thing i achieve from becoming conscious is waking up, losing my "astral vision" only to be looking at the black under my eyelids. Im very relaxed when i practice these, i do martial arts, i am very proficient at relaxing my body.

Likewise when i feel the vibrations, i begin to concentrate on an image underneith my eyelids.. this so called "astral vision".. instead my eyes just twitch and i feel compelled to open my eyes, stare at the blackness under my eyes, or just continue feeling the vibrations until they disapear 30 seconds later. If i imagine myself moving out of my body it simply wakes up my torso. Now i ask you this: How can you experience or feel your surroundings when you lose the sense of feeling (and i dont mean emotional) in your astral body?? If you have to invision yourself moving everywhere TO move everywhere then you really arent feeling anything at all, or simply you cant, or i dont.

Now here is where i begin to doubt this super computer incredibe unconscious thingy ma bob im supposed to have. How come everything ive ever dreamt up has been based on something i have seen before. Should i not be able to conjure up surroundings based on my emotions? I mean, in my dreams, everything ive conjured up has been something ive seen or based on something ive seen, and yet i can create places in my CONSCIOUS that are more interesting. Ive had dreams where i would be talking to a girl and i cant remember her name, i then walk away from her and ask everyone around me, "what is her name??" and my subconscious cant remember it. The next day i remembered the dream and thought about it myself, and remembered her name, which my subconscious could not do. Another problem ive been having, is that ive been playing games most of my life. Now when i dream a setting, the entire setting is created based on game mechanics and structuring. In other words, my worlds are just a mesh with a texture over the top.. very frustrating actually...

Robert Bruce really could have made some of this stuff clearer in his treatise.

If anyone has made it this far... ive got one more question/problem. The reason i wish to go to the astral realm is simply to explore my own mind and find answers. I know this is probably the same for everyone, but within myself i feel like im missing something. Everyone feels like they are the "one" from the matrix, and so do i. I feel like i should be the one with the sword who is the hero and has the side kicks with the axe and the bow (so to speak heh)... and i want to explore this because i obviously belong somewhere... reaching the point in my life where i have to decide which direction to go, and i feel that i cant make that descision purely consciously (i want to go everywhere and do everything!) Perhaps if i can look into past lives?

Please help me, i would really like this to work for me, as it opens up more than another world of possibilities.