On suicide

[beavis]

When most people are asked why they are here, they say one of these:

(1) "gods will" - But they dont know gods will (if there even is a god)

(2) "because god put me here and I should stay" - If being somewhere is enough reason to stay, no progress would ever be made.

(3) "to live the best life I can" - Similar to (2). Assumes this is the best place to be only because they are here.

(4) "to love, worship, etc" - Those things can be done if you are dead or alive.

(5) "to do something specific on earth" - These people are exempt from my ranting.


If you dont care if you have a reason to be here, thats fine with me, but dont expect rational spirits to want to be here just to be here.

[Jenadots]

Nothing you say has much to do with real suicide.  Having had a close friend do it, I would have to say it is the ultimate despair and hopelessness.  

Winston Churchill called that kind of depression the dark night of the soul, and it is dark indeed.  Just as there are all kinds of murder and deaths, there are all kinds of mental and emotional states which lead a person to suicide.  I too have been in that dark night a few times.  At its worst it was a few years of telling myself I didn't have to do that today, I could always do it tomorrow.

Call it a Scarlett O'Hara kind of thing, but it worked for me.
One day and then another and then another.  So do not presume, ever, that people you see every day have not "suffered" as you mentioned.  Most of them have, they just do not talk about it.  

Perhaps for the terminally ill it makes a kind of sense to select one's death.  However, for most suicides, it is a hopelessness and a myriad of other emotional pains without end -- more than someone can bear that lead them to it.  

I would hope that this ultimate despair gets the ultimate mercy after death.  However, I have read many opinions that one just has to come back to deal with it again.  

All the political claptrap in the world doesn't deal with the seriousness of suicide or the pain of it both for the person who commits it and those that are left to cope with their actions.  

To say it is a self-loathing or self-murder doesn't do the despair of the person justice.  Something inside of them - something they can't live without -- has died.  

There are certainly times in most people's lives when they are engulfed in grief, despair and sadness.  Some days it is a major victory just to get out of bed and put one foot in front of the other.  People who committ suicide are desperately crying out for a reason to live and when they believe none if forthcoming, they snap and see death as the only way out of their pain.

Forget the politics.  It is the most personal act of someone lost in their own pain.  

I know why my college roommate did it and why she couldn't see her life getting any better.  It wasn't her only option, just the only one she could see at the time.  

I dreamt of her two nights after she died.  She was at the foot of my bed and I saw the agony in her eyes as she said:  "What have I done?"

Now, 20 years later, I still pray for her and that she has found forgiveness and peace where ever she is.  I know of no one who knew her who condemn her for what she did.  Angry that she did it -- yes, definitely.  But more sad that she felt so driven to end her own life.  

It is always a tragedy for everyone involved.

[xander]

AT times I think many suicides are induced by neg's, I used to feel suicidal at various points and though nothing has really changed(i.e. few freinds, no lover, no car, etc) I really don't feel that way anymore. What I did was make a conscious effort at not turning the anger inward even though there is still something inside me that beleives that it has an obligation to be treated like poop and to just accept the various injustices. Yet my higher self cries out against these injustices.

I wonder....would it be possible for the lower self to have learned a lesson but the higher self just can't seem to get it right?

Also, is the subconscious neccesarily the higher self?

Xander

[The AlphaOmega]

Suicide is the most selfish and uncaring of all acts.  If someone commits suicide they have decided that they not only hate themselves and the life they live, but also that they have no regard for the feelings of those that do care for them.  Pure negativity.  There are certain aspects that I suppose could be addressed.  What if someone is suffering from a terminal illness that causes slow and painful death?  Some would condone suicide in such cases.  Hard to say if it's wrong or right unless you're really in that persons shoes.  If you do believe in God however, (and assuming you believe He created you), then the philosopher Socrates had an interesting analogy to this subject...

Imagine you are an artist and you create something beautiful, like a vase.  Whether for beauties sake, or to hold flowers, or some other reason, you created this vase for a purpose.  Now imagine that the vase doesn't want to be a vase, and before it's creator can use it for the reason it was made, the vase jumps off the table and shatters itself.  Did the vase have the right to do this... or is it the creators decision when the vase can be broken?

[xander]

I take it you have never felt suicidal or depressed. Some live because they want to die, others die because they desperately want to live.

I have seen the abyss of depression. I have felt those feelings. I have known people who eventually killed themselves and I find people who condem them to hell to be egomaniacs who foolishly think they know the mind and opinions of god.

Xander

quote:Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Suicide is the most selfish and uncaring of all acts.  If someone commits suicide they have decided that they not only hate themselves and the life they live, but also that they have no regard for the feelings of those that do care for them.  Pure negativity.  There are certain aspects that I suppose could be addressed.  What if someone is suffering from a terminal illness that causes slow and painful death?  Some would condone suicide in such cases.  Hard to say if it's wrong or right unless you're really in that persons shoes.  If you do believe in God however, (and assuming you believe He created you), then the philosopher Socrates had an interesting analogy to this subject...

Imagine you are an artist and you create something beautiful, like a vase.  Whether for beauties sake, or to hold flowers, or some other reason, you created this vase for a purpose.  Now imagine that the vase doesn't want to be a vase, and before it's creator can use it for the reason it was made, the vase jumps off the table and shatters itself.  Did the vase have the right to do this... or is it the creators decision when the vase can be broken?

[beavis]

The AlphaOmega If someone commits suicide they have decided that they not only hate themselves and the life they live,

They have decided that whatever happens to them after they die is better than their life. If they dont hate their expected afterlife, it is not necessary to hate their life, for them to choose to suicide.

but also that they have no regard for the feelings of those that do care for them.

Their regard for those feelings < afterlife - life
reason to live < reason to die

Do you not know math?

They dont have to consciously calculate that. It is the function of their brains to weigh those things against each other.

[Lighthouse]

I have to agree with AlphaOmega.  I don't know where I read this, however, I read once (I think this was Buddhist in nature) that if you choose to take your own life, you will still have to reincarnate and go through those lessons all over again (the ones that made you commit suicide in the first place) however, since you chose not to deal with the pain the first time around, the pain will be ten times more unbearable in the next lifetime.  You can't just decide to knock yourself off in order to escape the pain.  We all deal with pain and just because one is not as seemingly vocal about it, does not mean they are not dealing with pain too.  It is true what AlphaOmega said about it being the most selfish of acts.  it's the Ultimate Pity Party.  

That is what life is... it's about pain, we as humans want to grow as quickly as possible and pain is the fastest way to do that.  We all choose our own paths and there is nothing we are confronted that we can not handle.  We are all infinitely strong and can handle anything we are confronted with.  

I just went through an extremely painful period.  I was not considering suicide, however, I was expressing to a friend how I envied those who had passed away, not having to deal with this crap on this side. He then said to me something like this:  "Did you think the universe taught you how to recognize and overcome pain so that you would no longer experience it?  Life is all about pain.  People seem to think that once we are enlightened, we no longer have to deal with pain.  Christ had to be nailed and the Buddha had to give himself to a tiger in order to feed her cubs.  What we do not know is the ecstacy that followed the experience."  

The wise know that we grow through our pain, we understand ourselves better.  Suicide is not an act of bravery but an act of cowardice.  The active decision to not deal with the problems that face us.  

Death through war and car accidents is much different than deciding to end it by our own hands.  Fate is deciding our death in those circumstances, not our ego's.

[Tolvor]

I will agree with the original poster about the problems that are present in todays society.  There is war, murder, callousness, dishonorable professions, and a host of other evils without number. However this is not a cause for the loss of hope.  Society always makes progress, in the fashion of 2 steps forward, and 1 step back.  Take a look at any country a hundred years ago, and the problems faced then.  Wars today, by whichever nation, are tame by comparison.  Go back 500 years, and life really gets miserable, simpler yes, but far more human misery.  Progress is slowly made by a horde of individuals slowly trying to make things better in their little corner of the world, even if that only involves surviving.

This is part of the reason why every society values children so highly and the mores of society bind them so tightly.  Children are the future.  We do our best to teach them, educate them, show them our mistakes, and open their eyes to what needs to be done.  Despite our efforts they don't pay attention, scoff at our old fashioned ideas, watch their favorite stars on TV, and laugh at our values.  So it has always been.  We do this knowing full well that our children, prepared well or poorly, must face the wolves someday.  The unlucky won't make it past their fifth birthday.  Some even more unlucky won't know a day of love even if they live past the age of five.  Yet we hope that some of the lessons would be remembered, and that progress will be made.

Suicide is the death of hope.  While there is hope, there is life.  To go thru life considering each day as suicide due to destructive living is pointless, and is called defeatism.  That attitude could just as easily be applied to anything.  Why bother building something when it will eventually be destroyed or rot?  Why bother giving birth and raising children, when they will only grow old and die also?  We build for the benefit of society.  We plant apple seedlings from which we know that we will never live to see the tree that will grow.  In our own very small way we must always strive forward.

A lot of what you posted reminded me of Nietzsche, which is a favorite topic in college level philosophy courses.  To give you a taste of FN writings, my favorite phrase of his is: 'The two saddest days in mans life are the day he is born, and the day he gets married.'  There are some very good rebutals to FN, though it is hard to argue against him.  The attitude that I found most useful is that you have a choice in what compass point you steer your life towards.  Steer by FN writings, and you'll certainly find enough despair and heartbreak to fill your life.  Find something brighter, God/Allah/Budda if thats your belief, or some philosopher with a brighter outlook, like Thomas Jefferson (who was big on 'Individualism').  Irregardless of which you choose, you will find what you seek.

So as such I will condemn any suicide.  I will not simply give up on a lost soul mired in despair as a lost cause, or justifiable.  I will always regard a human life, old or infant, sick or hale, rich or destitute, master or slave, as being equally valuable.  If I knew a person who was so depressed, I would talk to them, and do everything in my power to help them out of the deep woods.  The most terrible incident involving this was covered here (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml).  We must help each other.  To do anything else is to reject our humanity, and be as some of the uglier beasts in the wild, like the wolverine.

So to sum up, I strongly disagree that suicide can be noble, or that society is hypocritical in condemning it.  

But I haven't been suicidal myself, so as your post indicates, I can't have an opinion on it.  I've lost a few friends, and family to suicide but I still don't understand.  I've had quite a few loved ones die unexpectedly, and I will die myself sometime in the next 40 years or so, but as you say I don't understand the glory and majesty of death.  I once felt so bad that I had to pull over on the side of a freeway to sit underneath a tree to cry, and sat there for two hours until a state trooper investigated (I wasn't suicidal) (got a warning), but I don't understand despair.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Death be Not Proud - by John Donne
(don't worry, the text is out of copyright, and is legal)

DEATH be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Suicide, it is a person's way of telling God, "You can't fire me. I quit!"

[beavis]

Lighthouse I read once (I think this was Buddhist in nature) that if you choose to take your own life, you will still have to reincarnate and go through those lessons all over again (the ones that made you commit suicide in the first place) however, since you chose not to deal with the pain the first time around, the pain will be ten times more unbearable in the next lifetime.

That sounds a lot like what the christians say: do what god says or you will burn.

Suppose I walk by a nail sticking straight up out of the ground everyday. What you read says I should step on it everyday to avoid stepping on 10 nails the next day. Enjoy your bloody feet.

[Tolvor]

beavis, I'd have hard time characterizing every day as a nail in the foot, but for your analogy to be a little more accruate, it would be:
Choose to step on the nail today, and every day until you die, or step on ten nails every day for all of your next life.  If you are Christian, then its a million nails for the rest of eternity.  I'm being serious.

It's a moot point anyway.  If you are beyond caring for yourself, you aren't likely to care for the consequences of your suicide.  Suicide never has pretty results, and is always sad.

[beavis]

I wasnt talking about your life or mine. Thats the life of somebody who prefers suicide.

If somebody hated life so much, why would they choose to come back and get 10 nails per day?

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by beavis


That sounds a lot like what the christians say: do what god says or you will burn.

Perhaps.  I believe the church or certain churches might say this... not all.  I believe the church and Christian religion has been severely distorted from the original teachings and the man who it was named after would not even recognize it as his teachings... unfortunately.  

I also believe the pendulum is swinging back.

That quote may have been Hindi in nature instead of Buddhist... it was probably a quote from my Hundu father-in-law.

Even so, I found a website that touches on the Buddhist idea of suicide... not much info out there... http://buddhism.about.com/cs/ethics/a/Euthanasia.htm

[mustang]

I thought I would attempt to revive the discussion on suicide (there is an interesting one put up almost exactly a year ago, "Suicide and spiritual growth" started by Frank. Can't put up the link, am having PC problems my end, sorry).

Some interesting opinions expressed before it all goes offcourse. Because of the importance of the subject of suicide, and frankly because I think that much of the opinions and ideas expressed on the subject of suicide, whilst often interesting and even profound, have I think most often missed a central and obvious point re suicide, but as the American writer Charles Bukowski put it, "always the important thing is the obvious thing, which nobody is talking about."

Let me get to the crux of the matter, we live in a world where people do not have a problem with mass legal murder and maiming, which we call war, which everybody the world over loves, despite recent hypocritical protestations to the contrary. People indoctrinate children in the reverence of terrible lies and brutality, teaching hate, superstition and bigotry, usually in the name of divinity, in forms both subtle and unsubtle, and so history has no choice but to repeat itself endlessly.

We have no problem supporting and encouraging or turning a blind eye to various work professions that are destructive, absurd and brutal. We worship numerous false idols (to use an old fashioned terminology) with the resultant horror that is human society with all its myriad nightmares, from terrible impoverishment and ubiquitous exploitation, ecological degredation, pointless work projects; state, media and clergy sponsored hate and brutality, idiotic entertainments and diversions, so we don't have to think about any of the horrors and thus do not see them for what they are and so we can only add to and reinforce them, and on and on the viscious cycle goes.

And what you may be wondering does any of this have to do with suicide? Actually it has everything to do with suicide. All that I have mentioned above is suicide, we just don't call it that, we call it living.

The point is that practically everybody commits suicide every day of his or her life (as the wise sage Jiddu Krishnamurti [1895-1986] pointed out), spiritually, emotionally/psychologically and even physically considering the illnesses we get as the result of our destructive living. We throw our children to the wolves and at the same time we frown on people who choose to end their lives voluntarily because there is nothing left to live for. Now I can pick up that kind of palubum, that condemms physical suicide that is, on any Christian fundamentalist forum, think about it. The ancient Stoics among numerous other tribes around the world considered suicide noble and brave, Zeno and Seneca, both famous Stoics, committed suicide.

Let me put it another way, those who are most vocal in the condemnation of suicide are part of a tradition and culture that is responsible for mass genocide, slavery, exploitation, ecological degredation etc. This is merely a transference or projection of their own daily psychological suicides and more to the point the brutality, destructiveness and iniquity that is true suicide ie psychological suicide, on to those who choose to end their lives. In some of our languages suicide is defined as self-murder, for example in Afrikaans (perhaps the Dutch too) it is "selfmoord", literally selfmurder. In other words even the language we use to describe suicide is prejudicial.

Sometimes suicide is actually the right and noble thing to do, the intelligent thing to do, the only thing to do, the correct course of action. Not to commit suicide in certain cases is paradoxically comitting suicide. Let me give just one example. Say you are drafted in Wold War 2 into an Axis Army, such are your circumstances, and during some caputure of a town somewhere in Russia or wherever, your Kommando unit is ordered to round up the local Jews, you know it is wrong and terrible, so what do you do? You can't stop it, if you refuse to carry out your command you will either be shot or put into a concentration camp yourself. Probably the best thing to do would be to take your hand gun and put it to your temple and squeeze the trigger. Actually there are men who did this. Not to commit suicide in such a case is committing spiritual and mental suicide, because you are then party to a terrible crime. My statement should not be seen as a judgment on men, who knowing something wrong, perpetrated a crime anyhow, out of fear for their lives. What would you do? Who are any of us to judge? Remember that wise injunction - judge not. I am just making a point. Nor should anybody think I am romanticising suicide, not at all, or God forbid encouraging it in anyway, because I am not.

The point I wanted to make, and I hope I have made it, is that there is an obvious hypocrisy of a murderous society's condemnation of suicide. If a stupid insane society as a whole condems something, well in my eyes at least, they probably have things the wrong way round.

I also find that a negative judgement of suicide usually comes from people who have yet to really suffer, and I mean really suffer terribly, so that you understand the truth of Job's despair:
"Why is light given to him that is in misery, and life to the bitter in soul, who long for death, but it comes not, and dig for it more than for hid treasures; who rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they find the grave?"


mustang