god: real or not

[Anonymous]

Personally, I don't care if there is one or not.  

I do have one thing to comment on though.  If god made us perfect then why would there be a reason to make us?  The whole point of existance is to make mistakes and grow towards perfection but to never actually achieve it.  This shouldn't stop you though.  Striving for perfection is the greatest goal for anyone to achieve.  Seriously, god isn't perfect and if god can't be perfect then that is one big goal to achieve.  A goal that will take forever to achieve which gives everyone something to do all the time.  Imagine absolutely no boredom.

[neo]

if god is not perfect then he/she is not a god(all powerfull and all knowing makes him perfect)

another reason y i think he/she is not real[]

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by neo
i personally think god is not real as there is so much imperfection in our design and what goes on in the world today

I'm inclined to believe the opposite.  If you really look at the tiny details of everything around you, you'd see that there is an incredible amount of detail and design that goes into things.

When you think about every cell in your body is programmed to do a specific thing.....or the fact that this big, blob of atoms and molecules which make up your body is also working together to process the words that you're reading right now and convert them into ideas and communication.....I think all of this is just a really tiny example of how much design is out there.

I'm not saying this to back up the God vs No God arguement.  However, to simply say that there was no higher power which created us because of "imperfections" is just plain silly.

In fact, by quoting you ("i personally think god is not real as there is so much imperfection in our design"), you're saying that you think "God" is not real because of our design.  Design implies that we were created or formed....and if you don't subscribe to the theory that we were formed by a higher being, then I find it fascinating that you think we (as human beings) just came into existence out of pure chance.

[neo]

i do think we were designed, but not by god. i dont really want to go into it, but our race evoled to fast(it should take 2.5 milon years to evolve into us but it took only 72,000. and by the way this is fact)[]

and by floors in our design i mean genectic Deaeses, and stuff like that.

im not sure what created us, but i am certain that it was not a all powerfull being.

[kiauma]

In my experience of life, all the pain, joy, circumstance and consequences, compels me to be more self-reliant, mature, and loving, to myself and others. Every negative reaction I have comes out of fear. Every negative decision I have made has come from fear, from avarice, greed, or other fear-based need to impose control over others, which has always diminished me.  This to me reflects what can only be a natural order.  

In my understanding, the divine is ultimately formless, being the underlying urge of loving creation from which all form is created, including our own free will, and out of which all consequence is subsequently born.  Ultimatly I see it as a teleology of beauty to which our soul strives, amoung all the conflict and confusion in the physical plain.

This is 'proof' enough of God's love to me.

[Shinobi]

...

[Nick]

This is an interesting topic neo. I'd like to see a nice thread on this so I've moved it to our Welcome to Spiritual Development forum. Things don't last very long on the Astral Chat first page. However, if you disagree, please pm me and we'll work something out.


Very best,

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by neo

i do think we were designed, but not by god. i dont really want to go into it, but our race evoled to fast(it should take 2.5 milon years to evolve into us but it took only 72,000. and by the way this is fact)[]

Fact...hmmmm....
Facts are after all only the conclusions drawn based on the information available at present. It was once fact that the earth was flat!

To compare human evolutionary development to the evolutionary development of anything else I would see as being rather difficult as we have no real basis for comparison. We can make guesses, but we haven't been around and paying attention to such details for long enough.

I have problems equating "God" to the personifications put forward by the major religions, however I've had first hand experience at how a vast spirit entity is quite easily capable of creating an avatar to allow it to interact with humans in a more personal manner.

For years now I've watched various theories on the universe evolve to suggest what we have in the universe and the life it contains is something that has been designed. These designs seem to indicate that there has been some kind of intelligence responsible.

As to rejecting the idea of god because of the occurence of sickness, famine, war, etc., this does not disprove God. It proves that humans have free will and are quite good at using it to stuff things up. We've caused all these kinds of problems ourselves. The imperfections are not in our design, but are the results of our life choices.

Regards,
James.

[mustard]

hm[] hm[] hm[|)] These are my opinions that am going to share with anyone who reads them, appreciate it if anyone reads the whole thing bcause this is the way am living with my life.
Begin shall we then?

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, our free will of curiosity that makes us human.
Why? Well to satisfy our desire for the truth afcourse, which is why we continue to evolve.[|)]"we are what we are"
Each and every one of us, a living intelligent organism that tries to fit in with life in order to survive it untill we die.
Everything I mean everything that we see artificial or that we take for granted around us is created by HUMANS AND NONE OF IT EVEN COMPARES TO WHAT WE ARE OR HOW COMPLICATED WE ARE, OUR EXISTANCE IS A SIMPLE proof! that we are meant to live
and create life(not much difference is there between what we or animals are meant to do huh[])WELL IS IT?
That is all folks we live to reproduce like every other living organism untill we die (so much for life being complicated heh , beacuse we create complications by creating other forms of distractions which is all that occupies us because we created them in the first place!      ALL THE ISSUES OF REALITY ARE caused >artificial< DISTRACTIONS from humans

The problem by artificiality is that there is too much of it today, and it creates CONFUSION that leads us in the wrong direction(if you know what I mean)    

the point>
If you are more curious about things we arent aware of you'll just distract yourself(NOTHING WRONG WITH CURIOSITY), you can't change what you'll find the way it is for example if there is God so?, if we go in afterlife when we die so?
So what if everything we know is the truth or not, sure I would like to know the truth but whom to get it from when seriously this goes for everyone we are all the same no one really knows the truth.  
THE SECRETS WE DON'T KNOW MAKE LIFE A LITTLE MOTIVATING TO LIVE,DON'T YOU THINK SO?
JUST LIVE IT AS SIMPLE AS YOU CAN AND TRY TO ENJOY IT []
THE TRUTH IN MY OPINION WILL COME INFRONT OF US WHEN WE ARE READY TO SEE IT[|)]
YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET WHAT I SAID BUT THANKS FOR READING!!!!
If anyone knew for sure that God existed, then what?
Would it have any affect on the way we live?  

[The AlphaOmega]

You are CERTAIN that we were not created by a higher power?  Is that somehow different then someone saying they are "certain" there is a God?  If there is a God, He would not have sent us here without some means of discovering the truth.  He would not let us live this life blindly without teaching us what it is for.  The bible, or rather it's underlieing message, has withstood the test of time so well because it has substance, meaning, and necessity.  Any book, bible or not, that teaches to forgive, love, and be charitable to human beings is a book the will withstand the test of time... because no other teaching is needed more in this world.  Some may have heard me say it before, so I apologize for the reiteration.  God is beyond the physical.  He does not need it to manifest His will.  Mankind expects answers from God on our terms, like seeing Him or hearing His voice.  He doesn't work like that, because He doesn't have to.  Our 5 physical senses are beneath Him, and are not necissary for Him to speak to us.  He speaks through the heart and mind, because it is in those two "organs" that peace is understood.  
"You will know of it truthfulness by the impact it has on your life." - Jesus

[neo]

in my my mind i am certain(i wont change my mind) but im sure that many others are certain that god excists[] i am sort of a hypracrit because i think god is not real as there is no evidence to sejest it, but there is no evidence proven he is not there, so im just going by logic[xx(], i am sure we were made by some sort of higher power, but i think the bible was confused and portrayed god as immortal and all knowing being, when i am sure that it was nothing more than a group of aliens on a power trip who created us[]

[Shinobi]

...

[rodentmouse]

not a god but a source.
the word "god"  connotes an independant entity who is aware of itself as the creator,  the  fundamental nature of existence seems  more profound to me.
source is more appropriate, it connotes a resoivour of life energy  from which everything else comes from, this energy source doesnt watch over us, judging our actions and thoughts- but permeates everything.
i beleive  originally  the word "god"  was understood literally as this  source,  but over the years has become warped by those who dont understand it- into what its beleived to be by the majority today- an independant entity which is seen as superior  to everything else, and seen as seperate from  all lifeforms.

for those who dont beleive in god/the source ask  yourself weather consciousness and self awareness is down to  pure chance.

[neo]

)

quote:Originally posted by Shinobi

[
So how did the power tripping super aliens come to be?  

aliens = anything foreign(not just things with big heads and black eyes[^])

and what do you mean by source, it sounds cool could you give me some more info please[]

oh and if our excistance was not just random and a god made us, then how did god come to be, im guessing you cant answer that.(but then again i cant answer how we got here[])

[dawnbringer]

ok well i believe purely in science. I believe the big bang created the universe. There is radiation that has been left over from the big bang, and scientists have found it (this is fact). It dont damage anything, and its all around us. How life was created is debatable, but the most likely theory(yet almost proven) is because of the earth itself. Scientists did an experiment on wat the "thought" was the very early earths atmosphere. The "thought" part is the only thing wat makes it a theory. They used something for the sea, the atmosphere, and something for the thunder and storms that went on back then and after a while they found they had created the basic essential for life.

[mustard]

Arghhh!
No offense but am getting tired of theories and questions that just end up creating more theories and more questions it could go on forever! (who created us and how was he created then who created him and who created........
Seriously every question about God will and does lead to another question THAT NONE OF US REALLY HAVE ANSWERS FOR, THESE KIND OF QUESTIONS ARE ALL PUZZLES OR DISTACTIONS IF YOU WILL THAT LEAD US NOWHERE BUT CONFUSION![B)]
NO ONE AT LEAST HUMAN KNOWS HOW OR WHY OR WHEN ABOUT GOD
OR US!
WE ARE ALIVE AND LETS LIVE HAPPILY, WHEN WE DIE HOPEFULLY WE'LL FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW, WHY OR WHEN  (IF WE DO GO IN THE AFTERWORLD I MEAN)
So just try to enjoy what life has to offer and don't get distracted by artificiality or such questions because they are all human-made
and have been asked since our memory of our existance began, no one still knows the truth or will because we are meant to live and that is all we know so live![|)]

[Shinobi]

...

[neo]

quote:Originally posted by Shinobi



dawnbringer,

you bring up some interesting points, but don't get too excited over the 'I believe purely in science' thing.  I am a big fan of the scientific process myself, but unfortunately a lot of folks take particular findings a bit further than they warrant.  Your reference to the background radiation proving the big bang 'created' the universe is NOT a fact.  What is a fact is that astronomers have found a lot of evidence, background radiation included, that is consistent with the Big Bang THEORY.  There are still lots of questions around when, how, what came before, etc.  And there are lots of different possible answers (check out a few issues of Scientific American to get an idea of the scope).   In general, science provides few true answers, but builds very useful models that we can pretend are 'true' until more information comes to light.  Outside of making a hash of just about every creation myth around (if you take them literally), scientists have little to contribute to theology.  The scientists that believe in the Divine find more reason to believe in their work, and those that don't believe find plenty of reason not to.

good point, all theroy.[|)]

[findtruth]

I actually consider hearing many theories to be rather enlightening.  If there is a god(s), and they were perfect, making us all perfect would be making us into gods.  Would that not be pointless?  What about reincarnation? How about us having an energy body as well.  We were probably created by something, at least, think of the emotions that we have.  Why would we need anything more than competetiveness (is that a word?) to survive?  Why would we need the deeper forms of love, hatred, loyalty, and an appreciation and need for beauty?[?]

[Volos]

The reason that it is often so futile to debate God (although like any exchange of ideas, it has its own pleasures and value for its own sake even if no conclusions are ever reached) is that those who do not believe in God will commonly defend their position with arguments and rationality, but to many God is something experienced. The divintiy which underlies that beautiful infinite comlexity which is creation is something that has been tapped into not just by mystics of every stripe and nation, but to millions the world over through prayer, meditation, music, drugs, and ton of other ways beyond the scope of my knwoledge. It does't really make much difference (to me anyway) wether this is identified as Holy Spirit, Tao, "The All", or any other title, but I think God works as a common term that most of us in this board more or less understand.

William James summarized what I'm trying to say about knowledge of God near the end of the Mysticism chapter of his Varieties of the Religious Experience. And although he is talking about mystical states specifically, I think it is fair to apply this to the spiritaul expereince as a whole:

"(1) Mystical states, when well developed, usually are, and have the right to be, absolutely auritative over the individuals to who they come.
(2) No authority emanates form them which should make it a duty  for those who stand outside them to accept their revelations uncritically."

Experience and feeling are nearly-impossible to transmit (especially through text). Rationality cannot overcome what one has experienced directly.

[darkangel13]

I'll try and put my basic beliefs in a nutshell....
Most major religions (I mean like Christianity, Judaism, Hindu, etc) believe in a 'god'.  Whether they call it God or not is up to them, but they have similarities that I believe are stemmed from actual truth. If something was written on one side of the world, and something with similarities was written on the other side of the world, and yet another on another side of the world, all within the same time period, what are the odds of it being a coincidence?  So basically, there is a higher power, a force, but people give it names such as 'god' or 'buddah'.  so going by that, there is a 'god', whatever you happen to call it.

[twstedrage]

here is how I see it. I am a big person on science. If you go by science there is no proof of god. If you go by religions, there has been no sign of one recently and if there was it was on a local level. So basically that god(s) created us with free will and everything is spontaneious. So basically they don't want you worshipping them, they gave you a life with free will. If a god did make of help make any of these religions the point was lost. In every religion they are never really about that god is the only way to believe but more a moral teachings to be a decent person or spiritual enlightenment. Not to argue or war over who's god is right. If that god wanted to prove that he would show him self. So the way I see if from either a scientific point or religion is to keep an open mind, live a good life and to the fullest, help others, and try to be the best person that you can, and when I am dead I will know the truth. It's pointless to argue what we don't know and haven't gotten to the next state of existance whatever that may be. If there is a god well then he won't persecute you for not believing in him and whatever the next state is, if you kept that open mind and not believing something is definately the right religion and that was set in stone, well you don't feel stupid in believing something that was wrong and you move on. That is my opinion at least.

Robert

[Meedan]

I mostly agree with twstedrage. Would you want your children to worship you?

I do - however - think that there is a lot we can learn about the universe by studying ourselves. I do not mean 'studying ourselves' in a kind of 'esoteric' way, I mean literally studying the way our minds work, what is logical to us, what feelings we enjoy most etc.

I've found that the most interesting and significant thing about the mind is its ability to develop itself. Minds seem to be one of the only things that can actually do this. Everyone agrees that matter can't develop itself, most scientists agree that matter decays.

You are free to assume otherwise, but if we assume that in the beginning there was nothing, then we can actually try to piece together 'the unknowable'. The chances of ANYTHING coming from nothing are agreed to be infinitesimally small. What if we weigh up the chances of the universe creating itself, with the chances of a mind creating itself?

The universe is (highly) ordered and as we know: all matter decays (becomes less ordered). Any kind of 'matter' that appeared from the nothing would decay back into nothing.

However, a mind could start even as the smallest of awarenesses and still be able to develop itself to infinity. The chances of an awareness creating itself - althought very small - are MUCH higher than the chances of a universe creating itself.


I really recommend reading the free e-book "The Freedom of Choice" by Tom Chalko www.thefreedomofchoice.com

[Irreal]

quote:Originally posted by neo

i was thinking today that so many people in this world believe in god evan though there is not a shred of evidence to back it up. i know this question has been asked for 1,000's of years, and i am certain that i will not get a answer, but i thought it would be a good debate none the less[]

i personally think god is not real as there is so much imperfection in our design and what goes on in the world today (i.e. sickness,famine,war,over hunting,suffering etc.)i also do not understand why so many thousands of people follow a very old and out of daye book(bible)

i would love to know what u guys believe, and why you believe it.

How would you proof this Something? You are Existing, isn't this ..... I can't find the words ...

Every argument anyone gives is proof for ya proof-obsessed. It's that easy. I would say the question is the answer. I really love all this different opinions! This discussions are very nice to read.

[beavis]

If I teach a caveman to speak and tell him I have a gun that can kill him or animals from hundreds of feet away, and let him hear a computer reading with an artificial voice, and drive him in my car (he can only run 15 mph!), he will tell the other cavemen that I am all-powerful.

I propose the theory that "god" was a finitely (and very) powerful alien who is outside spacetime (in astral), and the uneducated superstitious rumor-spreading people (and everybody else because humans are stupid compared to that alien) misinterpreted the message and made up their own F U ( |< E D up rules and regulations and called it religion.

I cant imagine why a "god", infinite or not, but very powerful, would care... if you sit in a building and listen to a man read an other man's words every sunday (interpreted then translated), or if you you say "godda /\/\ /\/", or if you stick needles in your toes and have sex with holes in trees, or if you believe something without having enough information to judge its truth, or if you believed a small number of specific things and were wrong (like "there is not a 'god'").