Some of us might be going to hell after all...

Randøm_ · July 21, 2003, 16:35:26

quote:
Originally posted by chill

QuoteHey Frère, I believe in God too. I don't ever talk about it though, because there is nothing I can say to support my belief, because my belief is just a belief, it's faith-based. Nothing more, nothing less. I can readily admit that it's based on NOTHING but faith. Maybe it's a just another form of mental insanity

Those words are the absolute best encounter I've had in reading theological arguments as of late. Faith IS a personal thing, period, not a political structure or dogmatic mandate. If you find your faith in an external entity, or other representation to instill the same, more power to ya, just don't impose it on other people's beliefs and THAT IS PEACE to not have to feed the ego with conversions.

FYI, I believe Jesus existed and was enlightened, yet, I am not christian. I believe in a concept of a collective god, yet, am not religious. The bible (whatever bible it may be) represents, to me, an interpretation. This interpretation may or may not be yours, it isn't mine, though my personal belief shares many of its principles.

My quote regarding religion is that I have nothing against it, but nothing for it, either. Faith is either personal or does not exist. And, I must say this, the bible is a book with no special powers in it. If it serves as a conduit to what you seek, that is its importance. It is a subjective issue, not objective, and should not be presented as something it simply cannot be. Forcing it as if it were objective is why it has left such a sour taste in many people's minds (including mine).

BTW, I also wonder about my sanity, but, well, I've concluded it's my reality and isn't contingent upon social acceptance to exist. I just know the difference between what is subjective (my interpretation of reality) and what is objective (the narrow scope of what can be agreed upon by most within the limits of common abilities). Faith ... it was never meant to be objective, lest it would be called "fact" instead.

PS ... and don't any of you biblers "bless" me ... I take that as insulting as you would if I said "may the icons on your desktop lead you to divinity" ... it insults my intellect. Thank you ... long live the icons' pixels. []

Frère · July 21, 2003, 16:40:36

Chill, Sinestro
If my words might have sound agressive, I apologize. But they were not mean to be.

Chill
I think my ache in the stomack is due to the tone of the article, which seems to express (for me) desperate search for some out of reach truth...

beavis · July 21, 2003, 16:43:03

If you go to burger king and find a burger for 99 cents every time you eat there for a year, you will probably have FAITH the price wont change tomorrow.

If you go to a restaurant you've never been to or heard of before, it is BLIND FAITH to think they have a 99 cent burger. That is the kind of faith that makes me think people are stupid. They cant do much about it. I cant do much about being stupid compared to an advanced spirit. Since we're all stupid compared to somebody else and nothing will ever be figured out if every stupid idea is told to shut up, let the idiots talk to other idiots about idiot ideas, and they'll be smart enough to see why they are dumb ideas eventually.

Frère · July 21, 2003, 16:55:46

beavis this time I apreciate your laconic style (after these mental postings without an end)

I also apreciate your burger king theory, even though I have only mac donalds here in france.

My faith is not some kind of preconcieved idea. I Know god helped me because when he helped me I could feel this came from god in my whole being. I am not sure some kind of hamburger can make you feel its price like that.

Greytraveller · July 21, 2003, 17:23:21

Sinestro -
I agree with much of you arguement. The faith of many people who follow Christianity and various other religions can more accurately be described as Blind Faith. [8]
However, let me make a suggestive criticism of your posts. They were much too long. Probably very few people read them because of their long length. I find that it is better to summarize the ideas of an article or book chapter. Write only one or two paragraphs that highlight the main ideas of the article. Then provide a link to the whole article or book so people can read more if they want. That way you get the idea across in a short space without forcing people to read the entire, long article. [

]

Frère · July 21, 2003, 17:35:52

Nerezza
Thanx for condescending to add your contribution!
[8D]
I did not feel like I was debating
many people here will be happy to read about god.
They might thus be more attracted to learn more so why wouldn't we share the little we each know?

I don't think faith is a gift, for I've been roaming for some years before being somewhat changed. I have asked with my whole being what came in my all being... and one could very easily call this insanaty... I don't care.

I too agree with the Idea that some christian people (and even priests) are in sth like blind faith... I personaly found real faith more easily at profane's. And think it's better that way.

Nay · July 21, 2003, 17:40:49

quote:
beavis this time I apreciate your laconic style (after these mental postings without an end)

I also apreciate your burger king theory, even though I have only mac donalds here in france.

My faith is not some kind of preconcieved idea. I Know god helped me because when he helped me I could feel this came from god in my whole being. I am not sure some kind of hamburger can make you feel its price like that.

I totally agree with you, Frere! Well said Beavis.. Some times things can be said simply.
After a few minutes I then scrolled down to see "HOW LONG" it was going to go on...And like Greytraveller said..way too long..I stopped, I almost got the feeling I was being preached at..*sigh*

Nay.

Nerezza · July 21, 2003, 17:43:38

My intention was not to be condescending(or was it[8]), but if that is how it sounds, I will delete the post.

Frère · July 21, 2003, 18:17:22

don't delete it just remove some little nags which suggest mabe you should have not posted it. Deleting it would be worse than everything.

Nerezza · July 21, 2003, 18:21:34

Deleting it would be worse than everything.

For me it would be bad. If it came across pretentious than it would effect what I was trying to say and Christianity doesn't need more of that.

rantboi · July 23, 2003, 14:52:24

Frère:

This is what a certain person wrote to me in an email today, and I agree with him 100%.

"Put ten people in a field and have them witness a spiritual "event" and one will see Jesus, one will see Mary, one will see Gaia, one will see Erzulie, one will see a UFO and at least one will be looking around at the others saying "What are you all looking at?" Religion
isn't (and shouldn't be) a one size fits all proposition."

Just because your god is real to you, doesn't mean he is real to me or anyone else.

-Ater

Frère · July 23, 2003, 19:00:37

rantboi

I don't know why you adress your (very funny and very right) little anecdote to me, because I agree with it.

Just because your god is real to you, doesn't mean he is real to me or anyone else.

It is not my god, there is not another god, whatever you may call it, that won't change what it is, whatever you can know of it won't change what it is, I even don't know a lot about it/him I just know it IS, it responds, it has sent some helper to me, and it can do much more, for all that is done, must be somehow done by him, but I could not explain how or why, for I'm not him, I just know, and I'm not asking you to change what you beleive, only if you weren't sure, then clear all doubt, it IS and it acts too I would say.

PeacefulWarrior · July 24, 2003, 01:51:51

Tyler wrote:

quote:
The whole point of a sacrifice let me tell you is to allow an entity to feed on emotion paint the victim experiences during it.

If this is truly how you understand the concept of sacrifice then I pity you.

Sacrifice for me is coming home after a long day and going to an old woman's house and mowing her yard and weeding her garden instead of plopping on the couch or doing something I want to do. Sacrifice is listening to some in pain even though it is not entirely pleasant.

Sacrifice for me is reading about a being who descended from higher dimensions to teach people the way to ascend the dimensional ladder.

Tyler wrote:

quote:
I could go on and on and on about this all day.

Yeah, me too...

Tayesin · July 24, 2003, 05:45:01

Hell could be a hoot! If, it exists then most of my old buddies from my mad youth would already be there. Man, I'd love to party with those guys again. LOL.

Seriously now. The God of the old testament was a vindictive bastard, more jealous than my ex-wife (that's damn jealous folks). And not the same God that Jesus was supposed to be talking about. If you research the origins of the first couple of books in the bible then you will see that it came from the Sumerians, and was already heavily altered by the Hebrews well before they ever got to Palestine (todays Israel). So yeah you Bastard worshipping Hebrew relatives, give it back to it's rightful owner's. LOL seriously.

Their god was a mountain dwelling deity and not the supreme being it has since been made out to be. In the light of what the Sumerians tell us about the creation of Human kind(Homo Sapien and Homo Sapien Sapien)then it is possible that the God of the Jews was actually just one of the Anunnaki who had been given Governership of a small region! It is well recorded that many of the Anunnaki really played up to their role as god's over their human creations. Most had the same fallible traits that we humans have, so it would not be surprising to find that the one the Hebrews best remembered was the Bastard who loved bloodshed and Lording it over us plebs!

Hell, is a creation of humans. And when you die you may well create your own Hell by what you choose to hold on to as your beliefs, instead of clearly seeing what is. What the Hell, it's only a concept. LOL

P.S. Very seriously...I aplogize in advance for if I offend anyone from the total lack of sensitivity I displayed in such an obviously playful way in this post.

Love always.

Mustardseed · January 28, 2004, 18:57:36

Well.....what to say. Maybe getting back to the original thread.....YES it is indeed possible that some of us may "cross over" and end up in some of the lower dimensions that you call hell. It is possible. People ruled by lust greed agression sarcasm revenge hatefullness and bitterness run the risk of ......like attracting like, as you put it. We would be foolhardy to believe that we can just change who and what we are at the moment of death, no.......the changes will have to be made here, not there.

I personally believe in Jesus, no offence to any of you [

] His encouragement and sample eggs me on to try to emulate his life on earth, I believe that He will somehow or another save me from my many faults, if I BELIEVE in his ability to do so. But then again who really knows. Only God....maybe I should ask Him.....nah ....I dont think so, I don't know if I am ready for the answer. Sorry just rambeling.

Regards Mustardseed

Blackstream · January 28, 2004, 21:16:27

For all of you all-you-can-eat buffet religion people, those articles were probably mere annoyance, but to me those articles weren't wasting space...

Regardless of whole Christian God being the one God who will send you to hell or not, the statement "My God is not neccessarily your God" and stuff about picking what you want to help you out isn't neccessarily fact as it dangerously assumes a subjective "reality".

First off, what's to say what is right and wrong in a subjective world? We can't say Hitler was wrong as in his world view it was right. Without right and wrong, how can we progress spiritually as there is no longer any up or down as everything is the same morally. If I have a religious experience with one of the many astral gods out there or if I shoot heroine, it doesn't matter. How can we call anything negative or positive if it can be either or in anyones world view?

The very fact you guys call negative thought forms... well.. negs, suggest an absolute reality where such things are most definately negative. Thus picking and choosing from religions is potientially dangerous as the real truths could be different and you could possibly inhibit your spiritual progress as what you pick from Relgion 435 to help you grow actually accomplishes the opposite of that.

Note I'm not now argueing for the Christian God, but for a reality with absolute truth. And if there is a God out there, he's the same no matter how you see him. Just because I see him as Budda and you see him as Christna doesn't mean change the fact that he's actually.. I dunno... Alla.

Obviously you can tell I'm an objectivist. :/

MJ-12 · January 28, 2004, 21:33:44

ss

Blackstream · January 28, 2004, 21:52:17

quote:
Originally posted by MJ-12
Objective morality is impossible, because someone must still make a personal, subjective choice to accept such a moral code.

That doesn't makes sense. In the absolute system, it doesn't matter if you accept the rules of right and wrong, they still apply to your actions.

So even if you accept it (and what's a subjective choice anyways) or not, the rules still apply. It has nothing to do with what your perceptions of the laws are or if you accept it.

Basically you are saying absolute is impossible because this is a subjective reality. That's circular logic.

Makoto · January 29, 2004, 08:46:50

Well for debates like this you might like to try places like this,

http://www.christianburner.com/subs/sub_010705devi.html

www.christianburner.com is nice as well check em out (and christian burner is more open to debate then the name might suggest)

MJ-12 · January 29, 2004, 10:17:24

<<<>>>

Blackstream · January 29, 2004, 12:43:08

quote:
Originally posted by MJ-12

The world is filled with people who reject your moral objectivity. How does your absolute moral order encompass them?

You obviously have no understanding of the absolute morality system. In the absolute system, things are real whether you choose to accept them or not. Let me see if I can clarify this.

Look at a lamp. In a absolute system, that lamp is there whether you choose to acknoledge it's existance, or if you choose to believe it's a fish, or that it is really a thought form that your mind manifests. Your belief or acceptance has no affect on the reality of that lamp.

In the same way, the absolute system works like this. It does not matter if you choose to accept it or not. If you reject objective morality as you say, well then in my system, so what? They'll continue to do actions right? Well those actions are still right or wrong under the objective morality rules. Just because you choose to believe it is right doesn't make it right.

Again, you are approaching my worldview from your worldview and that is why it doesn't make sense to you. The basics of what I believe is this. What exists, exists. It exists regardless of your beliefs, perceptions, acceptance, or any other form of consent, proof, or approval. It merely is there. If you choose to accept or not, it is still there. The rules of morality are there (in the objective pov) whether you accept them or not. If you choose to reject them and accept by your choice another set of rules, you are merely following a false set of rules and your actions are still right or wrong based on the true set of rules.

One more example

1+1=2, no matter what you believe.
I can choose to reject that and say 1+1=3. I can even get an entire society to believe it. We can base our lives off of it and believe wholeheartedly we are right. We can have religious experiences from the 1+1=3. But that doesn't change the fact that 1+1=2. Do you see? Or are you going to state that Objective Morality is false because in reality Morality is Subjective?

no_leaf_clover · January 29, 2004, 13:01:59

How can what is moral be proven in the same way that we think 1 + 1 = 2?

Blackstream · January 29, 2004, 13:16:46

That I can't answer. Maybe that's one of the purposes of life, to figure out what is truth.

Arcane · January 29, 2004, 20:18:06

Im going to be silly now

1+1=2 well only if you are thinking decimal
1+1=10 if binary
1+1=11 if concatenation(+)
1+1=1 if boolean

Blackstream · January 29, 2004, 21:12:59

1+1 = 1+1

YOU ARE RIGHT!! EVERYTHING I'VE BELIEVED HAS BEEN A LIE! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO [

]

News:

Some of us might be going to hell after all...

beavis

Nay

Tayesin