Some of us might be going to hell after all...

[Jenadots]

I too just scrolled down over the long quotations.  

Anyway -- we have hell on earth for billions of people.  I doubt if some punishing diety or demon can do to us anything we haven't already done to ourselves over the thousands of years we have been here as well as in our own time.  

Those of us living in better circumstances often create our own little hell and hellish experiences with others.  I know I do and I see it in many people I know.  The problem is how do we create something better for ourselves and for others?

Isn't that what most of us want to do by exploring our inner selves and our levels of consciousness?

Anyway, I like God and Jesus and Buddha and anyone who seeks to save us from ourselves.

[Gandalf]

Interesting debate there on objective vs subjective morality. I used to think that there was probably some kind of objective morality we could arrive at, but once I finished doing 1st year philosophy, that idea was wiped!
The academics have been raging about this for years but most of the arguments now are leaning towards the idea that morality, like reality, is subjective and relative.
Although some of you might disagree like i used to, once I sampled some of the main arguments against objective morality (and reality), i realised how difficult it is to maintain any kind of objective stance... sorry for those who dont like that idea, but some of the arguments against objective morality are formidable, not least the fact that a culture's perceptions of right and wrong *change* over time, just as everything else does. ie What was unacceptable in the past is acceptable now, just as some of our views now, may be unacceptable in the future.
Even seemingly basic examples like 'torture is bad' are not always clear cut.
For example, Some in the US govt. have stated that torture should be considered in some cases, eg if a terrorist is captured who knows the whereabouts of a bomb that is about to go off, but he is refusing to talk. This statement would have been inconceivable coming from the US government before 11th September, but not now.

Now, the above scenario will generate opinions both for and against the moral worth of such a decision.. and thats the point. You will never be able arrive at a fundamental objective morality simply because humans disagree with each other about things. They do so because everyone perceives the world in a different way. The objectivists can take their argument no further than to say that there is some kind of objective morality out there, but since humans will never reach a universal agreement as to what that is, the theory will alays remain just that, a theory. Meanwhile, the reality is that we all constuct our own moral framework.



On a personal level, I think that because our consciousness is so restricted to our own narrow-minded, distorted little perception of reality (the 'Time-space illusion' as Monroe calls it), we are in no position to judge what is trully 'right' or 'wrong' with regards to the 'big picture'. In fact, from our physical world perspective it is most likely impossible for anyone to discern accurately the quality of any thought or action and its long-term significance. Our self-created ideas of good/evil are illusions as far as the totality is concerned, although they may seem real enough to us. As Robert Monroe says 'In orbit, there is no up and down'.

So even if there is any kind of divine *truth* or ultimate order out there, it is way beyond our limited scope to perceive it. For this reason, the only thing we can do is decide what is good and bad for us, which is in effect a subjective, moral view. Every culture defines its own rules. In my view, for the reason given above, there will NEVER be any final absolute moral objective truth declared that will be accepted by everyone. To anyone who thinks such a thing will happen, well as Morpheus says 'You're living in a dreamworld Neo!'

Douglas

[Blackstream]

Very good point:)

I agree... sort of.  If humans decide what is moral and what isn't, morality will be subjective.  Because everyone has their own opinions of what is right and wrong.  People will disagree, opinions will clash, and wars will be fought.  Quite simply, objective morality as defined by humanity is impossible because no one will ever agree.  Even things we take for granted as right or wrong aren't always held in the same position as other cultures over the years.  So, assuming that humanity defines what is right and wrong, objective morality cannot exist.  Even if one person were given the sole purpose of defining right and wrong, he would be bound to change his mind, and besides, he can't live forever, and the chances of finding someone else that holds his exact same opinions is slim to none.

But what if one being, that was immuteable and eternal, defined and created the laws of morality?  He would be the judge and the jury as to what you did was right and wrong.  Obviously I'm hinting at a perfect God.  Now, morality has only one source, and that source doesn't change his mind over time.  Now, we can call this objective morality, as it exists regardless of your perceptions.  People can disagree all they want, but this true source of morality would in the end define what is good or not.  I'm not neccessarily refering to the Christian God mind you, but just any god (or impersonal force) that can do the above).

Then, objective morality could exist.  But you say, isn't it subjective because it's one persons beliefs?  Well, I guess you could put it that way, but then there are two ways of looking at it.  Maybe God just knows what's right and wrong, i.e. he's tapped into the giant handbook of right and wrong and is able to relay this information to us.  The other is that, it may be what he 'believes' is good, but he still created it, so it's still real all the same.  I can't very well claim that that lamp isn't real or that love isn't real just because someone created it in the way they thought it should be.

[harlequin_star]

heres what i think;
   That we're judged on what we do and what our intent is. If you go through life being mean and spiteful then why would you be rewarded for that.  .and if there is nohing in the afterlife (no hell, no heaven)then why try to be a good person in the first place?
I think that you have to go by those principals that have been around ever sice forever ; love and understanding.
I sortof see it like we're all children, what do you do when your child misbehaves: you give em a spank or some sort of concequesnce. So if you go through life being mean and horrible to people, you get a concequence whether that's 'going to hell' or having to be reincarnated again. Either way, we're all being judged by our actions in one way or another.

[twstedrage]

I believe that harlequin_star is right. I believe that we are going to more be judged on our actions and how good of a person we are then on what we believe in. There are too many wars and arguments over religion. I often think the world would be a better place if they were never made up. Everyone obviously misses the point of every religion it's not to point out who is right. The bible for instance(weither it is fiction or real I am not debating that) is about teachings of being a better person and it does say believe in god too, but most of it is about being a good person. All religions are like that. I do believe the best thing to do is keep an open mind, and be a good helpful person. No whatever the afterlife is and god(s) can persecute you for being a good person and trying to do good in the world. I do believe in the more good energy that you put out, the more that comes back to you and that is proven no matter what religion you believe in.

[acidmax120]

quote:Originally posted by Tyler

What is this stuff i hear that "there is no hell". It comes from all new age entusiasts, even from higher energies/guiding angels call em what you like. All of them claim that hell is nothing but a state where mind is locked and separated from the God.

Oh really?

What about all those hellish dimensions? Where all the negs dwelve? How do you know you wont be dragged in there the very moment you die? Then what can you say about so called "9 levels of hell"? They weren't invented out of thin air were they?

Just because you "saw" a member of your family who died during astral projection, doesn't mean a thing, it could be anything and anyone pretending to be him/her and acting according to your expectations extracted telephaticaly.


And most of all explain me this, in the old days, people used to call certain demons "soul eaters". What do you think that means

Bloody bible is filled with suffering and sacrifices to please God. The whole point of a sacrifice let me tell you is to allow an entity to feed on emotion paint the victim experiences during it. Wouldn;t that make God a "neg" then? ohhh let me guess, God encouraged sacrifices was just another mistranslation right, and lucifer the light bringer too? And jesus is here to bring a sword not peace three?

And isn's Jesus a what is called a martyr according by todays standards?

I could go on and on and on about this all day.

I can't stand liars [!]

Actually, hell has to exist. Opposite duality has to exist. Why? because how would you know what heaven is without hell?

So using the bible, if you must.

If you didn't sacrifice how would you know what it is to achieve?

To experience you need to experience what you are not experiencing.

[findtruth]

"The lowest rung in Hell is reserved for those who thought that the only way not to go to Hell was to believe in it."
                             -the Principia Discordia

Excellent point by the way, and to add to that... how could there be good without evil?  There could be, but we wouldn't appreciate it.

[Kenshi]

All I know is that there are low and high frequenties and that evil only exsists untill the third dimension.

Love.

[Arcane]

What i see as a problem, is the fact that what we see as right or wrong depends on how we have been brought up.
What really is right or wrong?

[Kenshi]

Right and wrong are merely present because of different life situations. There isn't really a univeral statement that claims what is right and what is wrong. It takes a conciousness to create such a thing, from the whole right and wrong are just illusions.

Love.

[Arcane]

Thanks for translating my post into plain english. I often seem to look back on my posts and say "what the hell was i on about?".

[Janette_DuCharme]

I think it is all a matter of opinion really. If we can manifest things with our thoughts and wills then we can create things such as heaven or hell, or other diemensions etc. Now I am not a christian by any means or believe in god but I am sure for the people that do believe in it , it is very real just as any other religion or gods would be to another individual, but the only thing i don't agree with is when people blatantly state that this is real and this is not. not everyone will agree with you, everyone has a different perspective and I'm sure if your belief is with heaven then your soul will transend there when you die for others who do not the same thing applies, you make it what you want it to be there is no exact judgment day or specific location you will end up.

Janette

"When you only have eyes for the Knight"..

[Tyler]

What is this stuff i hear that "there is no hell". It comes from all new age entusiasts, even from higher energies/guiding angels call em what you like. All of them claim that hell is nothing but a state where mind is locked and separated from the God.

Oh really?

What about all those hellish dimensions? Where all the negs dwelve? How do you know you wont be dragged in there the very moment you die? Then what can you say about so called "9 levels of hell"? They weren't invented out of thin air were they?

Just because you "saw" a member of your family who died during astral projection, doesn't mean a thing, it could be anything and anyone pretending to be him/her and acting according to your expectations extracted telephaticaly.


And most of all explain me this, in the old days, people used to call certain demons "soul eaters". What do you think that means

Bloody bible is filled with suffering and sacrifices to please God. The whole point of a sacrifice let me tell you is to allow an entity to feed on emotion paint the victim experiences during it. Wouldn;t that make God a "neg" then? ohhh let me guess, God encouraged sacrifices was just another mistranslation right, and lucifer the light bringer too? And jesus is here to bring a sword not peace three?

And isn's Jesus a what is called a martyr according by todays standards?

I could go on and on and on about this all day.

I can't stand liars [!]