Last night's OBE

[Patty]

I got out of bed, walked over to the bathroom to try to identify the playing card that I set out before bed. I have two 'decks' that I am using. One (deck A)is just red aces and black face cards, and from that deck I want to identify simply red ace or black face card (odds of success, 1 in 2). The other deck (deck B)is standard, and I want to see if I can identify the exact card and suit. (this requires far more precision, odds of success 1 in 52). (Let me say at the outset that I 'failed' in identifying the cards precisely, though I did accurately see a black face card for deck A. This sort-of result is what I often encounter.)

First, for deck A, I saw the ten of clubs. I was puzzled. I didn't immediately remember if I had tens in the deck or not. I thought about it, and decided that I had not included tens with the face cards. So I pick up the card, and it changes to the J of clubs. It changed to another black face card after that. I thought "Man, this sucks." I tried to mentally force the card to change to the 5 of diamonds, to see just how much plasticity was in the environment. The card started to change to the five of diamonds, but then snapped back to a black face card. I set it down, cleared my mind a bit and looked at the card - king of clubs. I decided to take that as my 'final answer.' The card from the standard deck (deck b) also was changing. Mostly from 4 of spades to 6 of spades.  (I think, I am REALLY having a hard time remembering this part.) I looked away, cleared my mind, looked back, and saw the 2 of diamonds (I think.) So I went with that.

Then I stood and wondered what to do next - and decided to return to body to record this. I was thrilled that I had gotten out. Absolutely thrilled. I walked back to the bedroom and said something as I stood by the bed. I don't remember what I said, but I remember being surprised that I could hear so well, often I don't hear a thing while on a travel. Mike (who was fast asleep in the physical world) responded to me - said something - don't recall what. Maybe that my hands were cold. I jumped into the air, did a triple flip (or some other fun maneuver) and dived back into my body - brushing my hand through Mike's body for fun as I re-entered.

(False awakening) I woke up and felt my hands. They were indeed cold. I decided to go check the cards right away so that I wouldn't forget by  morning what I had seen. I go to the bathroom, and pick up a card, and it is the  K of clubs. I turn it over and realize there is a face card (Q spades) on the back side of the card, too. Then I realize that there are too many cards on the counter, and I realize that I am dreaming. (it amazes me that we can distinguish a dream like this from an astral travel - on paper these must sound very similar but in experience they feel very different.) I slapped myself to wake up, thought about going outside to scream to wake myself up but I realized that the house was alarmed and if I opened the front door sirens would go off.  (I guess a lot of the inconsistencies - like the fact that a dream siren won't wake the physical neighbors - weren't very apparent to me at this point.) Anyway, I genuinely woke up about then.

First I wrote down what I had 'seen' while travelling - k clubs and 2 diamonds.  Then I went to check.

Darn it all, the cards were the jack of spades and the 5 of spades.

Here's some of the things I wonder.  For Deck A I did succeed in identifying black face card (not red ace.)  For deck B, I can't help but remember how I saw the four of spades/six of spades flipping back and forth and the actual card was the five of spades.

I am not one to try to make data fit after the fact, but I AM trying to figure out if we truly travel to these astral planes and they have this sort of malleability - was I witnessing this sort of thing with the playing cards? How does this work? HOw do we stop it? Isn't there supposed to be a plane near the physical that has essentially no malleability? I find it interesting that I had difficulty changing the black face card to a five of diamonds. Overall, I am thrilled that I got out. Just absolutely thrilled.  Man, I want to get this 'ability' down pat.

Your thoughts and comments are extremely welcome.

Patty

[Tia]

Patty, I am so excited by your post, wow...

I dont know how to get around the reality fluctuations, maybe it's a question of energy, maybe its being too close to your body?  I must get my Astral Dynamics off the shelf again.

I would like to know more about the physical feelings you experienced.  You say you just walked away?  How did that feel?  I am amazed that you were so scientific about it!

I agree those Gateway Cd's are great for relaxation but they stop just at the crucial moment.  ..."this ends your experience of Focus 10..."  And I'm just getting vibrations.  Maybe I should put it onto tape and record it for a longer session.

[Patty]

Hi Tia,

I don't know about the feelings..... (I don't even know for certain that I am genuinely 'out' during these experiences, or else I wouldn't set up experiments to prove it to myself!)  Here is what I think about the feelings, though.

The first couple times I tried to get out and got stuck, I started with my hands and methodically pulled out my arms, towards my shoulders, and then things got too hard to pull out past my shoulders ---- the more I tried the more I started waking up. Like I said, it felt sticky pulling out, and I had marginal awareness of my body - awareness that it was asleep, but awareness.

The last time (the time I got out) I tried something that I have used in the past. It is more of an instantaneous blipping to a new place.  it was sort of like, I was on the awake/asleep line, and skating back and forth. And holding intent to stay alert. Instead of trying to pull out when I was on the awake side of the line, I tried just being out. I think the upshot of which might be - that you blip out of awareness long enough to pull away from your body and then you blip back into awareness.

So the time I finally walked away - I don't remember the exit, but I do  remember the moment immediately before and the moment immediately after (three feet from the bed, walking away.)

Usually I will feel the carpet under my feet very tactilely. This time I didn't.  I noticed that as unusual.   I also don't remember going through the doorway to the bathroom. I just remember walking towards the bathroom, then being in the bathroom. Maybe at the time I did consciously experience it, and forgot? I think intent is so important. I intended to see the cards, and I remember that part fairly well. I think wherever you focus your intent, and I mean really focus it, that is where you will see your experiences.

What are your feelings like during exit and experience? I recall you had hearing - you heard your partner and the policeman - Other feelings or senses?

I also don't know about reality fluctuations. I sometimes think it is a safeguard I am building into the experience so that I don't really have to believe it was real if I don't want to.

But I'm not certain.

It's my big question, I've been working on it a while without much resolution. I want to move on to new ground - but not until I am convinced that these are really real.

I know what you mean about the cd's. And not only do they stop the hemisync, they also bring you back to C1!  I'd rather they just left me floating.

I think some on the website have continuous playback capabilities,  I haven't gotten any of those.

THANK YOU for your feedback.


Patty

[Patty]

p.s. Tia -

Thanks for mentioning the book - I pulled it off the shelf and saw some really good writing about what can influence perceived reality during projection.  I guess if RB has (or had) this problem, then it doesn't bother me quite as much! I still want to get around it, but he included some tips on how to reduce the degree of reality fluctuation over time and through experience.  Main thing seemed to be that the fluctuations get worse generally as the projection continues, due to the physical mind entering a dreaming state and relating the dream content to the projected double through the silver cord..

I wouldn't have picked up AD to check if you hadn't mentioned it -

Patty

[Frank]

Patty, IMO your problem is simply due to the fact that you have too much emotional energy riding on the outcome.

Look, I don't want to be coming across as "all knowing" because, believe me, I too am struggling with my own stuff. It's just that I have experienced these kind of reality fluctuations, time and again, to the extent where I can easily recognise the problem in others. Also, it's usually one of the first major hurdles to overcome once you learn to project.

Your questions:

If we truly travel to these astral planes and they have this sort of malleability - was I witnessing this sort of thing with the playing cards?

Yes, there are truly Astral planes upon which we *do* have the ability to create the circumstances around us. And, yes, you were witnessing precisely that sort of thing with the playing cards (albeit at a fairly moderate level).

How does this work? How do we stop it?

The fluctuation is generated and fuelled by release of your own thought-release-emotion. The way to stop it is to gain control of your thoughts such that you can remain emotionally closed at all times. Which is ever so easy to say, but so darned tricky to accomplish. But it can be done, given time. Primarily, what you need to realise (and fully accept) is that it's *your* release of emotional energy that is the cause.

Isn't there supposed to be a plane near the physical that has essentially no malleability?

No, but the RT-zone is the plane with the least "malleability" as you call it. As such, the reality fluctuations you experienced were *very* moderate. On the Astral proper you can instantly create the whole circumstances that surround you, in glorious 3D Technicolour, on an instant by instant basis.

You are also quite correct where you speak of "intent" in relation to travelling on the Astral. It's the "intent" that fuels the travel and gives the direction. The actual travelling time is instant.

As for the Wave-1 CD (or tape) I found it's best to first listen to the CD, go through the motions once or twice, then run through it on your own.

There is an inherrent problem in trying to get (what I call) a true "mind awake, body asleep" state. Basically, if your physical body were asleep and you had truly "let go" of the physical, you wouldn't hear the CD.    

Yours,
Frank

[Patty]

Thank you for the response, Frank.

Sounds like emotions are a double edged sword. I wouldn't be projecting at all if I wasn't emotionally invested in the pursuit, but then that driving force (emotion) may be what causes the projection to have illusory elements.  

hmmmm.... I'll need to think on this one, explore how emotions may be playing into my experiences. I don't feel particularly emotional during the attempt, but I understand that subtle thoughts can manifest wildly.  

In C1 I generally allow my emotions to be fully experienced and appropriately expressed, it seems necessary and healthy. So I assume that when I work through the ideas of emotions coloring OB travels I will still want them to be acknowledged or expressed (as that is a value I hold) ----- maybe ultimately what appeals to me is allowing emotional expression while non-physical, but learning to see what elements in the experience are a result of the emotion. (Hmmm... this could take a while....)

On the physical plane this sort of approach works for me.... it is fairly easy for me to recognize what aspects of my thoughts and actions are emotional and what parts are rational (though how I got here I wouldn't wish on anybody) - part of expansion of consciousness that all people presumably go through in their lives. I see many people living more reactively and I presume that they aren't aware of all the factors within themselves that are affecting their behavior and experiences.  I can appreciate that it might be far more challenging to identify various causes for events on the nonphysical level, in no small part due to having only short 'windows' of time to examine the situation, and due to the much greater fluidity of the environment.

Bottom line from your response, my initial thoughts here, and Bruce's book - is that in any case learning the ropes requires time and experience.  I will spend some definite time and energy thinking about the emotional aspects of projection.

THANKS!

Patty

[Tia]

Robert mentions to look at your hands during an obe.  If I ever manage to get out again I will try this.  Patty, I think it's a case of practice, practice and practice some more to get the hang of it.  I think if you could experience the exit with all those sensations, it's very much a confirmation of getting out.  

Yes, I did hear sounds with my experience, but I noticed today during my meditation I was listening with half an ear for my partner's car to pull up in the drive.  Infact I heard every friggin sound you can imagine (none of them Astral).  A crow sqwaking outside, the water heater burping etc., etc.,  I now realise that every time I meditate, I am expecting to be disturbed, or at least rushing against the clock.  In future I just wont attempt to meditate unless I know I have 2 hours where I wont be disturbed, I dont need 2 hours but I need that peace of mind.  My partner infuriatingly calls me every couple of hours during the day and even when I switch all the phones off, I can hear the little click, click in the exchange box in the garage when someone calls.  I get really wound up about it.  I would love to try during the night but my imagination runs riot in the dark.  Did you find yourself in darkness?  Was your bathroom light on?  How did you percieve everything?  What if you made some cards extra large?  Like A4 size, with just one large coloured symbol, would that help I wonder?  

[Patty]

Hi Tia,

The darkness wasn't (isn't) a problem. I get bummed that things are often so dim, and I can't project during the day (kids) but we have a nightlight in their bathroom which is the bathroom where I put the cards. I put the cards right under the nightlight.

I feel depleted right now from the whole thing, it was more intense than my average experience in terms of... I don't know.... ooompf. So although I want to get at that practicing practicing practicing, my little voice is telling me to take 2 days off and sleep.

Overall - having had three experiences in the last four and half weeks - is much better than my usual rate of one spontaneous LD or OBE every few months. So I think the discipline of sticking with the mental exercises is definitely paying off. This board really helps me stay focused on doing exercises regularly.

I have problems with sounds during the day too. Somehow at night it isn't a problem. If a dog barks during an afternoon meditation, forget it. I zing back to tense alert wakefulness. Somehow at night I can just accept that sort of background noise. I think it is because our bodies are more directed towards winding down at night as a matter of course.

I recall when I was really heavy into attempts - my husband would kick me in his sleep every time I got vibrations. I was so mad at him. thankfully he doesn't do that any more.

Patty

[ralphm]

patty, i think that verification is best left for the very experienced. i think when robert bruce was on art bell's he said he would need a large open warehouse with a wall in the middle to be able to identify something. maybe someone like him would only hit it right 8 out of 10.
interesting comment about your husband- seems like when i try to project lately my wife is very restless- one night she interupted me 4 times before i gave up. last night she was asleep and i was getting to the falling sensation and she woke up with a start and said she was asleep one minute and the next thing she knew she was falling.

[Patty]

Hi Ralph,

I have had long discussions with my higher self/disc/guides/guardian angels/I/there/ etc about verification. I'm not budging on this one. As I understand it, we are here to grow and dammit, my heels are dug in and they had better facilitate this verification thing. Since 'they' and "I" are somehow 'related' they seem to understand and are willing to help out on this. I know that 'proof' won't be absolute, it just has to convince me personally.

(Didn't Frank say I was too emotional about this?  Nahhhhh.......)

you know - that is really neat about your wife sharing your falling sensation!  It's funny how we share these things. Is she also 'into' this stuff or is she a skeptic? My husband is a big skeptic. One night as I was desperately pulling for those vibrations, I see him get up to use the bathroom. And I thought, knowing him, here I am trying to project and he is just over there doing it without giving it a thought. So I reached over and sure enough he is fast asleep in bed.  GRRRR!

My daughter also in the past has thwarted my projection attempts. For a long time she cried out while sleeping, and it never failed she would do it right when I started vibrating. Sometimes she would cry out right when Mike was kicking me.

One time, after I had taken a year and half break, I was settling into a trance one night. First time in eighteen months.  She hadn't cried out in her sleep for at least four months. So I figured she had outgrown it.  Right as I start to get into a moderate hummy trance, she screams "NO! I don't want you to do that!"  Of course she was fast asleep.

This time things seem pretty smooth.

So tell me Ralph, what do you make of the whole thing? Is it personal growth? External or internal travelling? Did you initially have spontaneous experiences or did you seek them out?



Patty

[Frank]

On the subject of reality fluctuations, I try where I can to pick up dates of things. This morning I held a coin and looked to see more about it. It was an old English penny and the date imprinted on it was 1926.

At that moment I realised, "Yes, I got another date!"

It was only a tiny little outburst but instantly the figures on the coin began switching around. Next moment there were all kinds of coins jangling in front of me and I could just make out my original Astral surroundings through what looks like "heat haze" on the Physical.

I immediately closed and, after a few moments, the emotional energy was used up. But I still could not, for the life of me, read the face of the coin now without all the figures becoming jumbled up.

Even though my emotions were now closed, there were still residual effects preventing me from reading the date again. Which reminded me of your post where you kept looking at the cards, seeing them change, and trying to decide which would be your definite choice.

Yours,
Frank

[ralphm]

paty, you ask almost too many questions of someone who cannot type worth a damn, but there are some interesting points i have been thinking about. first off i met my wife in1979 at one of those new age communes, so we have been on some spiritual path since, however we usually find ourselves doing different things with different outlooks. she is on her second masters degree inthe last 5 years so she has been studying more wordly matters. my focus lately has been to explore  the non physical realities since i am interested in doing and knowing as opposed to belief. i started to spontaniously projecting but i was reading robert monroes books and listening to him and robert buhlman talk aboutit on art bell's show, so maybe i'm a half and half.
which brings me to motivation, i realized one day while going through the motions that maybe i need a goal for what to do when projecting in order to project more often, and i couldn't think of a goal since i have not really had what you would call good quality projections- except one of my last which may have scared me a bit-i was moving up toward a bright spot betwen some clouds , saw a pair of white hands, kept going and when i got to the hands they grabbed me and pulled. i think they were friendly, but i freaked and woke up. i was bummed because it was my best experience- i could see clearly, move easily. so now i guess one of my goals is to find those hands again, if they are friendly that is.
if you are trying to verify the experience i guess that gives you a goal, but i wonder about all the people that almost project-maybe they do not have a clearly defined goal of why or what to get them out.    

[Patty]

You know, Ralph, I was going to suggest to rodentmouse that he start setting a goal for the reason you state. I absolutely think you have hit on something important. When I have a goal I can stay focused on the attempt much more easily.

Often my goal is verification, but sometimes it isn't - it can be something like trying some new talent (flying, going through a wall, whatever).  I think I might set that sort of goal for my next one - I just read in AD how one's speed is affected by their surroundings. I might experiment with that - try leaving the house and cruising along the road or something. It sounds intriguing, and useful too - to get to know firsthand what the aspects of the experience are. Also it might get my mind off verification which might help me come at it afresh down the road. (Another nice goal might be to visit someone who wouldn't mind an astral drop-in.)

Sorry for all the questions!!

I have made an effort not to ask any this time, but I enjoyed learning about you and your wife, she sounds most scholarly. A lot of my relatives have chosen to pursue various advanced degrees. In fact I am thinking of taking classes in the fall towards a teaching credential, which I think is equivalent to a masters in education but I am not sure.

Thanks!

See ya!

Patty

[ralphm]

oh Patty the other thing i was going to say about verification is maybe you are demanding too much of your guide- the proof and the way you want it proven. maybe you are entittled to proof but your guide will show you in whatever way is appropriate for you.
Actually my wife has a masters in education. She got it through national univ., one of those breeze through class a month schools.

[HooVooLoo]

Patty...

I had an idea regarding your verification attempts; perhaps you could alter it slightly in your favor, and it would sure be exciting to hear if it works!  First, my own amateur analysis of your experiment.

Perhaps your foreknowledge of what the cards COULD have been before projecting was influencing your results (Deck A).

First, take a look at the pattern of your results based on your expectations.  They are intriguing.

First you saw a ten of clubs.  Then jack of clubs, then something else.  Then the attempt to shift the card to five of diamonds, and finally you saw a king of clubs and settled for that.

As to your expectations, you went into deck A knowing you would have 1:2 odds of being correct, and knew what cards were in deck A.  Yet when you failed with a ten, you kept going until you felt satisfied.  That entered a bias into your experiment, but even that had a surprising result.  After the ten of clubs you saw no spades and no aces.  Yet the correct card was the jack of spades.  You saw all "around" the correct card but could "land" on the suit.  And look at the progression; Ten, jack, king.  Strange that it would go in order like that.  Then during the false awakening, you first saw the king of clubs again, and then saw the the missing suit (spade), and the missing denomination in the previous sequence (queen).  Just too odd.
     
For deck B, you again kept "seeing all around" the correct card (five of spades) but could not "land" on it, and so kept seeing four and six.  Perhaps your attempt to force deck A to be a five skewed your draw from deck B (although that seems a stretch)?

So while you knew what cards were in deck A, and had a 1 in 2 chance of being correct, you saw a ten the first shot and so didn't even get a chance to play the odds, so to speak, hehe.

But look at deck B!  1:52 odds, and you were right there!  All around the correct card, just not quite.

Now for the idea...

If you can get your husband involved, it would be better I feel.  There is a good chance that you are leaving a residual energy signature on the cards which could be messing up the verification attempt (true tarot readers acknowledge this phenomenon, and are aware of energy contamination).  Instead of two decks, have Mike fully shuffle a deck and place a single random card face down in the spot in your bathroom.  To add a little twist, tell him to put a coin under the card.  It might be best if he does not look at the card, lest you pick up his subconscious knowledge of the card once you are in the Astral.  As for the coin, it doesn't matter if he knows what it is, because you will be trying to identify not so much what coin it is, but what the date on the coin is, ala Frank.  (Great idea by the way Frank!)  

If he cannot or will not participate, then you can do it yourself of course.  If you have to do it, I am not sure if the coin thing would work regarding trying to identify it's type.  Even without looking at the coin while placing it down and covering it, your subconscious will know what type of coin it is based on it's size and weight, and that's not good science I reckon'.  But surely it won't know the date!  Try waiting a day or two after handling the cards before trying to project out to identify them, to allow your energies from the cards to fade.  That seems long enough.


As for me and hoo I am, Hello!   I haven't been doing much OBE practice lately.  After reviewing Robert Bruce's texts, I got some vibrations in my chest after only 3 days of practice.  A really heavy thrumming, as if my chest turned into a vibrator under a Lay-Z-Boy chair.  After that I stopped because I realized that I have a LOT of chakra work to do before getting serious with it again.  For many they don't have to, but for me, my chakras are an absolute mess, and as my mom told me after I explained to her what I did, Kundalini isn't a toy to jump in and mess with without proper conditioning of the body.  

About 2 years ago the majority of my dreams have become lucid.  It is rare for me to simply have a "plain old dream" anymore, where I am oblivious and am just a spectator with no knowledge that I am dreaming.  And they are getting more and more intense.  Within the last few months, they have gotten to the point of intensity where I intuit that they are interactions with other astral beings.  Those are the rarer ones, for sure.  It is quite exciting.

Well, that's my spam for now.  Give that a go Patty, and maybe my silly idea might work for you.  I hope so, for what you are going through with verifications is exactly the same sort of thing I will be going through once I can pull off a conscious OBE.  I am really going to want to verify for myself, but if someone else could verify their own it would give me a small sense of satisfaction.

Ciao!

[k2sixx]

Hey Patty-

I didn't read all of the posts, but I didn't want to forget my idea on how to help control reality fluctuations.

Try setting out 1 random card out of a standard deck.  Do it casually during the day, and set an item right next to it, like a hair brush.  Think of the hairbrush, and go to the hairbrush when you leave your body.  You'll notice the card when you get there, and then take note of its value.  Go back, record.

I read in AD or a Monroe book, that to have no preconceived notions about the card will enhance probabilities for sucess.  Use the hairbrush as control, and let the card be the variable.  Best of luck to you.

[Patty]

Buon Jiorno, HooVooLoo!

Thanks for your thoughts! There's probably something to the idea that I am jumping around the actual card. I think that with time and trials, I will carry less fear about being right or wrong. Presumably then my fear won't keep me from landing on the right card.  At this point, each individual trial represents a large proportion of the running tally, so each trial carries more weight than it will down the road. In the moment at any rate.

About having dear hubby help - That brings its own problems. We actually have another experiment in progress. He sets something up on a high shelf. I can't see it or feel it unless I am out-of-body. I can post those results sometime if there is interest. We have had three trials so far, with reasonable success rates. The problems we encountered were that I can't see the objects (I project at night) so the object has to be identifiable by feel. (We get around this problem with the cards by putting them out every night under the nightlight in the bathroom.)  Another problem is that hubby is supportive only to a certain extent. He tolerates my interest, but he wouldn't be willing to be too involved in this pursuit - wouldn't place objects on a daily basis because he thinks the whole thing is dumb.

Some people feel that by having hubby involved, he may be communicating information to me  without us realizing it. It's possible. He might make some comment colored by what he placed, that I might be able to interpret.

Anyway ----- through the limited level of detail that I see repeatedly through my experiences - I should be able to discern red ace from black face card with reasonable accuracy.  After all - for all the shenanigans that that card pulled off (changing from one card to another) it never changed to a red ace.

We'll see what happens. the experiences are valuable in and of themselves, but verification is nice too.

I don't know about the residual energy idea. A definite problem with leaving the card out for too long is tha a family member might see it and make some comment or something that influences my attempt. So I prefer to put it out after the kids are asleep - right before I make my attempt.

Hi K2sixx!

I will give your idea some thought.  I think that my emotional energy is so deeply rooted about the card that it won't be distracted by the hairbrush. but a similar idea might be to not have any experiment - just go cruising around the neighborhood and see what checks out afterwards.

I consider doing that. We'll see.

Thanks guys!



Patty

[HooVooLoo]

*chuckles*

Then do what is not so obvious...Take a quiet moment, and open up the cabinet under your bathroom sink.  Toss a card in there without looking.  See?  There do be many ways to objectively get around your problems with setting up your experiment.

After all, how many times do you children or hubby go under there?

[Patty]

The first post is the preliminary stuff. The second in the thread is the actual OBE.

First of all, Thanks to Frank for saying 'Gateway track 2' enough times for me to finally listen. I pulled it out last night to give it another try - in the past it had really helped me relax much more completely, but I had only used it once or twice. I usually use track 4 (free flow 10), when I decide to use a tape. I went to bed at 9:45 with track two.

So I was very very nicely relaxed last night. And I decided not to do any energy circuits, but rather to go with what has worked for me in the past, which is to stay alert as the body falls asleep. I was determined last night, and I think the gateway tape really helped me achieve a tension-free alert relaxation rather than a sleepy relaxation. (Since I have been doing more circuits lately, the 'storage' idea may be relevant even if I skipped the circuits last night.)

I must have drifted in and out of consciousness, but even so during the times that I was conscious I felt like I was maintaining my determination to stay alert very well. That is, there wasn't the sense of "oh shoot, I fell asleep again" rather there was the sense of "yep, I am staying alert" even though I must have been drifting into sleep now and then based on the elapsed time.

So a couple times I feel completely alert and am stil very mariginally aware of my body, and I try to pull free. This is probably around 11:30 - 12 or so. I can get the arms free, in a sticky pulling way, but as soon as I try to get the torso and head free, I start to wake up the body. I tried some of the waterskiing idea, with interesting sensations but no separation. On about my third attempt to just walk away, I pulled it off.


Patty