Suggestion for Adrian and Posters: Science Forum

[atalanta]

Yeh, it would be nice, I haven't visited all the forums here but I am sort of in a similar place.  I am not saying this to say that I am somehow superior or anything like that but I have done some uni studies and because of that I find that I need proof of things beyond just that it felt right, etc.  Its made me into a doubting Thomas which is I think preferable to just believing everything that I am told.  But that doesn't mean that I don't believe in OBEs, paranormal, etc, as I have also had a lot of experiences which suggest to me that there is definitely something going on.

A lot of the time I feel like the meat in the sandwich between science and religion because each side is so blinded to the other and I keep seeing value and validity in both.  If I defend something in science I get blasted by the spiritually/religiously minded, if I defend someone who is spiritual/religious, I get sniggering remarks by the scientists.

I think a lot of it has to do with protecting egos more than it has to do with protecting or defending truth.  Neither God nor science needs defending they eventually defend themselves, which begs the question of why are we attacking each other?

[beavis]

A science forum is a good idea.

Science is a very strict method of learning, but that doesnt prevent it from learning the weird things that we at astralpulse know. A science forum here would help it do that. Most of us dont have the attitude that obe can never be understood (like many people say about religious things). Instead, we talk about it and figure it out.

[Kazbadan]

The forum it wouldn´t be only about obes but many other topics. I know that this forum it´s about spiritual development, but we could talk, for example, about ufos too, and their reality (are they real?!). This is somehow related with the Zeta stuff (more difficult to believe- without offense) and other topics discussed here.

Sicence and logical thinking are very important in a forum like this. We cannot accept something just because we read about that, althought it´s needed to have the mind opened to such ideas. We need to think for ourselves and see all the points of view of some topic.

Many paranormal stuff it´s (maybe) easly explained by science stopping us from fall in a world of lies and mirabolant (thus dangerous) ideas. Warning: i´m not saying that obes and other paranormal things are fake, just wearning to other kind of things.

We leave in a very strange world (just imagine obes for example) but that does not mean that all the things are strange and somegow related to paranormal. Just because i had a dream and the dream hapens in real life a few days after, that does not proof anything about the precognition reality of dreams. It could be just a coincidence  (statistic says that it would be strange if such dreams wouldn´t happen).

This is just an example of course, but what it matters it´s to remember that we need to use the brain to analyse srange phenomenons instead of accepting it as being  inexplicable. Only after heavy and impartial research (but with the mind opened and without favoring any side)we will be able to see if it is indeed inexplicable.

"Extraordinary facts demands extraordinary proofs"- Carl Sagan

[Hephaestus]

I think a science forum would be a positive addition to the Astral Pulse, I love discussing the scientific theorys behind Astral Projection and strange occurences.

[kakkarot]

i think it's a very good idea, with only one thing that could ruin it: people would have to continually remember that science cannot always explain everything and we mustn't feel pressured to try and use it to explain things that we don't understand or to try and answer other people's questions when it does not.

but definatly a good idea [].

~kakkarot

[no_leaf_clover]

In all fairness, things that can be neither proven nor disproven by science cannot be discussed in a scientific manner. Therefore, science would be useless when it comes to things like astral projection, lucid dreaming, chakras, God, aliens, non-physical healing, and the majority of most other things you will find here. Of course you can say that as far as science knows, such things do not exist, but a) what is the fun in that? and b) true science cannot observe things that are not physical unless the whole of humanity shifts into a completely different state of being, and most of the things listed above are either strictly non-physical or cannot be easily observed physically.

If you want scientific opinions on the things most commonly discussed here, I can give them to you myself.

Scientifically speaking:

Astral projection does not exist.
Lucid dreaming isn't real.
Chakras don't exist.
Earth contains the only intelligent life in the whole universe.
There is reasonable evidence that prayer or any kind of non-physical healing effects anyone in any way.
There is no reasonable evidence for an after life.

Now, what fun is all of that? Of course there is evidence for all of those things, but such evidence is of course not scientific evidence (physical evidence). Most evidence of those sorts of things will come from personal experiences, or maybe just an open mind, or maybe even common sense. Science enthusiasts can't tell you much more than that without stepping outside the boundaries of science. BUT, if they should do that, no problem, right? Yeah, but then, what's the point of a science forum?

Science enthusiasts simply giving their personal opinions on such things would be no different than how things go on here at the Astral Pulse now, except any hard skeptics that are attracted may very well become entertained with themselves as they start shooting down anything that hasn't been proven scientifically. I've seen such things done by people on Yahoo user chats, and I have to say that such people must have a knack for showing their lesser traits, and that's putting it nicely. If those simply wishing to argue, harrass and state their beliefs absolutely become a problem here (and just a couple of people posting in such a manner can be a problem if nothing is said or done in the way of correcting the situation), I will most likely discontinue posting here until something is done, and it will be as simple as that for myself.

Just browse through some of the Yahoo user chats under the Religion category and bring a range of paranormal or non-physical topics and you may very well find that most people in those chats are pretty set in their ways. This would be a terminal illness to the atmosphere of the Astral Pulse.

I agree that nothing said here on the Pulse, either by someone as experienced as Robert Bruce or someone as obscure as myself, should be taken as fact at the same rate you read it, or at least without keeping a mind open enough to easily test and maybe reject the idea later. Following that, one hardly needs a scientist, and as I have maybe pointed out, what good would that do?

Just my thoughts.

[Squeek]

Hmm... I always thought the "Sciencey" forum was Quantum Metaphysics.  That's where I always found science-related questions at least...

quote:Welcome to Quantum Metaphysics!
This forum is for the discussion of the "Quantum Sciences" including Quantum Physics and Quantum Metaphysics, a modern scientific approach to the true nature of the Universe.

I rest my case.

But, know we are reviewing these suggestions seriously.

~Squeek

[atalanta]

Noleafcover,

In all fairness, there is scientific evidence for many of the things described here.  The problem is that the evidence is ignored or scientists are ridiculed, people who express that they have had these experiences are described as deluded individuals and charlatans.  No matter how rigorous the scientific methods, there is always going to be a reason why it just could not have been right.  And therefore, the constant cry of there being no scientific evidence.  You may like to know that there is a million dollar reward up for grabs for anyone who can prove that the scientific evidence gained through these studies is false.  Its on Victor Zammit's site.  I think its been there for three or four years now and no one has picked it up yet.

Now I am new to researching these issues, but I am looking at the various studies.  I would draw your attention for example, to the much publicised The Afterlife experiments by Professor Gary Schwartz.  I may be deluded but before I open my mouth and speak in absolutes, I plan on researching the topics.  There are a number of things that I have heard here and elsewhere that I think are wrong but I intend to keep an open mind.  For example, I think the stats in these scientific studies are showing that something is definitely happening but I am not so sure that I agree with the interpretations of what is happening.  Remember, the primary and golden rule of stats and science, never speak in absolutes.

So I think there is plenty of science to discuss here.

[Makaveli]

Couldn't science of the paranormal just go in General Metaphysics?  There is an area of science that studies the paranormal it's called Parapsychology.  
Here's an on FAQ on it.  
http://www.parapsych.org/faq_file1.html

[Kazbadan]

No leaf cover has give me a nice idea: what about change the Quantum Metaphysics name and theme?! Something like "Science and Paranormal" (not "science vs paranormal"!). That would save Adrian a lot of trouble in creating a new forum.

[no_leaf_clover]

Atalanta,

I'm not a skeptical scientist or believe or act in the same ways as such people; I believe astral projection is a real experience, and I've had lucid dreams, and chakra experiences. But either way, the bulk of the scientific community isn't going to go very far into these sorts of things.

I agree with you on how scientific evidence that does suggest such things is commonly overlooked or ridiculed, and corruption in the scientific world would not at all surprise me. There is such corruption all over the world, and groups are causing all sorts of such problems conspiratorily, whether they are aware of it or not (ie arrogant scientific 'elite').

From the lack of interest of the main of the scientific community and the nature of the scientific method, there comes a vagueness from what evidence we do have. Of all the evidence there is for an afterlife, how much of it goes into detail about how things work after we die, exactly where we go, what we do, if we reincarnate, etc? The way science is currently taught and practiced is totally inefficient at research things of a non-physical nature. It would be like taking a shovel and trying to cut a tree down with it.

The scientific method was pretty much introduced as a result of the Catholic Church enforcing things absolutely that had little or no scientific evidence supporting them, such as that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe. Science was not introduced to go into non-physical realms and prove if astral realms existed or whatnot, and of course the people of this era still believed in supernatural things such as God (given that many may very well have done so for the wrong reasons, such as fear and threat of unpleasant afterlife), but they were successful at proving wrong the bad physical science of the Catholic Church.

A forum based on what scientific evidence some people have scraped up off non-physical things would likely have to go beyond the boundaries of science to produce interesting conversations. I don't think very many people here doubt that we do indeed experience things well after we die.

I believe more is out there than we can sense, but I don't believe science is an efficient tool to bring it to us.

[atalanta]

Noleafclover,

Firstly, an apology for coming on so defensive.  I have been negatively effected with some things over the last week on a spiritual level and its influenced my communications with people.

I agree with everything you have said.  However, I don't think that science should be abandoned.  Science as a method like all human endeavours does and will evolve.  I think science needs to be rethought and developed.  I only have basic stats from a psych course I did, but I know the stats they used 100 years ago is not the same stats they use now.  I mean most of it is but it has been extended, etc.  Because there is one method of knowing under the umbrella of science doesn't mean that eventually there will not be more ways of knowing that can be included under that umbrella.  Something people often forget is that the answers and quality of the answers we get in life often reflect the questions we asked and omitted asking.  Change the question or ask a particular question that would not have been asked and you may radically change the answer.

For example, I am not so sure that an afterlife does exist.  I have an alternative idea of what may be happening which involves the idea of time.  I am not a scientist but I have been thinking about this for a while now and if you are interested, I will send you my ideas.  Infact if there is a physics wiz out there then let me know.

I hope that one day a science will be developed which will be able to explain these experiences/phenomena.  My hope is that we will reach a point where there isn't a constant swing from religious beliefs to science and back.  I think it will occur when the premises we have in each, start to rethink and rework their dogmas.

[no_leaf_clover]

quote:I think science needs to be rethought and developed.

Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement then. []

I would say more as to show more appreciation to your post, but you'll have to excuse me because I'm rather tired and I might have school tomorrow if this storm doesn't do a good job.

[Mick]

quote:Originally posted by no_leaf_clover


Earth contains the only intelligent life in the whole universe.
There is reasonable evidence that prayer or any kind of non-physical healing effects anyone in any way.
There is no reasonable evidence for an after life.

There are an increasing number of universities investigating the paranormal usually in the shape of parapsychology departments so not all negative.
From your list I don't think science would be arogant enough to rule out intwlligent life elsewhere, simply that there is a lack of 'acceptable' evidence this far.
There are quite a few studies that are suggesting that prayer and other alternate healing methods can have a beneficial impact. NIH has recently approved further studies of acupunture for a range of conditions.
OOBEs are encountered by hospital staff and some interesting accounts exist which could be exploited.

My input is that there is inceasing interest by the scientific community and there are currently some interesting research programs so a forum where these could be identified and discussed might be useful. http://www.spr.ac.uk/ is one starting place for useful limks, another guy to watch out for is Dean Radin. He is turning up some interesting physiological stuff that relates to this arena, might turn out that some stuff is not so paranormal as very normal but happening all the same []

[Haematite]

Hi all[]
In my oppinion the idea of making scientific forum is good. I've always been away of facts - it seems that my "brain" is working in another way and I receive my information by other methods...But I also know that the Truth is only one - just the paths to it are various. So, if scientific way is easier for some people to reach the Truth - let it be like this[]
There are too many lies told about magic and that kind of stuff. That knowledge had been always kept back from "casual" people and only "the chosen" ones had been allowed to use the sacred knoledge. In the Middle ages The Chirch had tried to safe it by chasing the scientific people - so in the end scientific method is right way to find the Truth too. Now times are different, every single person have the right to develop theirselves by the most suitable for they way - the final result is most important...still we all have common goal: reaching the highest level of our existence. Some of us are at the middle of their path, some are at the beggining, but the best we can do is to help eachothers in every possible way by sharing our knoledge. Scientific forum(and whole that site) is one good way to learn more and to make more progressing steps in our Paths[]

Best regards![]

[wantsumrice]

Isn't that why we have the metaphysics forums?  I guess thats where all the scientific stuff is going these days...
~ivan

[Kazbadan]

But at least i would sugest a changing in the name, since "Quantum Meatphysics" it is not very atractive (in a scientific manner) and it does not sounds very serious (i am not saying that it is not!).

[Kazbadan]

If someone that believes (with any solid reason or not) in paranormal, when such person comes to this forum it will start (i mean: it will have an high probability for such) even more in paranormal and less more in science. This happens with many people that believes that science and scientists are just stupid people (and most of the time many scientists are: just try to say "ufo" in front of one scienctist). There will be a bigger disruption between the world of science and the world of paranormal.

This is bad because such persons (the paranormals) will have a bigger tendency to believe in all paranormal stuff and less in science. In fact, science (the real one, not scientism) it´s very important, more than we want to admit, because if we start to believe in every paranormal phenomenon we will be surrounded by a web of lies. Be aware because i´m not saying that paranormal phenomenon are just lies (myself believes in many things...or want to believe). All that i say it´s that it´s easy to believe in cures and solutions that are based in the paranormal.

This is bad for some main reasons:
1-There will be the believing that we can find solutions without fight or effort.

2- People get easier targets for charlatains that want your money while offering cures that don´t exist.

3- While believing in all the paranormal without thinking, almost with a kind of blinf faith i say , we start to stop training our brain. We will cease to have a critical eye and logical view that it´s very important in many aspects of life. Blind faith it´s bad...even Buda warned people to do not believe in what he sated, but first they should try it and see it with there eyes. Only them followers of Buda would have the power to decide if thew wanna follow the path showed by Buda. This kind of thought it´s important in our life.

So, saying this, i want to suggest the creaton of a forum where people would post things related with science vs (or plus) paranormal. A forum where we would post things, for example, related with proofs of paranormal stuff: proving obes, ghosts, telekinesis, etc.

There would be discussions related with sicence topics that somehow could affect our view of paranormal world, and vice-versa.

Although Carl Sagan was a non believer of paranormal stuff, i suggest the readign of Cosmos and Brocca (i don´t know the translation, i mean the original english name of the book).

It´s time to separate the real paranormal of abnormal paranormal.

"i don´t believe in nothing but i´m ready to believe in anything."- that´s the spirit.

What you say on this Adrian?!