A Vote

[kakkarot]

well considering that many people on this board have said that they have tested their oob projection and found it to be real, i can't really say that it is a lucid dream.

i can, however, put up the theory that perhaps an oob projection (oobp) is remote viewing capabilities combined with remote influencing capabilities. unfortunately, there are many that have said they see other spirits as well as themselves, so that takes out the idea of remote viewing since remote viewing allows you to see things far away from you, but doesn't give a "physical" presence in that place.

as well, i have a friend who oobp's by seperating his spirit and his body via a plane of energetic force, then creates a tether to which he anchors his spirit to his body while he projects. so this gives credence to the idea of the spirit actually leaving the body.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[Patty]

My vote - C, something else. Not sure what exactly. I sort of like the idea that our consciousness (and universal consciousness) is all connected through some unidentified means. that tuning into the part of the brain that accesses the connection allows your own sense of consciousness to experience RV, OBE, and other states as well. I don't know if it is an external travel, an internal travel or both.

I guess that might be like the holographic model?

But I don't think we have any good evidence for this idea of cosmic consciousness.

It is hard to answer this sort of question without a firm understanding of whether OBE's can be substantiated as reflecting an out-of-body state. Many people take their own personal experience as strong evidence, but in my opinion those experiences may be colored by all sorts of subconscious cues and so on. (Like you mentioned how your hearing might be shaping what you 'see' when you are out.)   Still, personal experience is my best shot of convincing myself personally, so onward ho!

As far as matter of opinion, I say C.

Patty

[BD]

Well of course, Countess... the correct answer is, "all of the above"!  IMO, the question is generally at fault, here.  The question begs the assumption that we are *in* a body, in the first place.  IMO,... while the body/mind is our current focal point, it is not however, our point of origin.  While it is the nourishment of our present consciousness, that does not preclude our ability to focus that consciousness upon other realms of time or existence.  So, do we leave the body?  Yes, and no.  Both.  Are we *in* the body?  Yes, and no.  Both.  

"Existence is a game in which there *are* no wrong answers,... only experiences."
BD

[TheCountess]

Now BD, don't be giving me a hard time!  LOL  That's why I offered up selection c) .......   for alternate answers.  Like yours.  : )

[Lone Wolf]

G'day

BD. I found your post quite interesting. If you don't mind, would you be willing to expand on what you said either on this board or privately?

You said: "while the body/mind is our current focal point, it is not however, our point of origin"

Where do you believe our point of origin is? You're saying that rather than being souls inhabiting a body, our souls reside on a separate plane and that we use our physical bodies to focus on this physical plane Correct?

Do you have any theories as to what the whole process might be? By that I mean, why we choose to focus on this plane, what do we do after our physical bodies die? What is our ultimate purpose?

Do you believe that we actually have individual souls? Or are we all of the one universal consciousness and each person is a part of the same consciousness looking at the world from a different point of view?

Hmm... I seem to be having problems putting my thoughts into words today so I might as well just leave it there for now.

And to answer your question Countess, well unfortunately I'm so open minded about the whole thing that I believe anything is possible.

I've never had an OBE... I feel like I've been saying that for years... But I tend to believe that dreams and LD's take place in the mind rather than on the astral plane. I am open to the idea though, as the existence of the astral plane can neither be proved or disproved IMO. How can I form a solid belief on the matter if I can't prove it one way or the other?

Oh, and thank you Countess for pointing out this place on alt.out-of body. You wouldn't remember me, I used to post there a few years ago but my lack of experience left me with little to say. I left when the hardcore skeptics repeatedly insulted the people whose ideas did not match their own. Skepticism is a good thing, but not when it causes people to stop speaking their minds for fear of ridicule. I return once every few months to have a quick look. I just happened to catch your post about this place, so thanks for sharing.

From
Michael

[TheCountess]

Michael ....

I glad I could be of some help.  I know that some of the skeptics in alt.out-of-body can be extremely critical.  I tend to thrive in those conditions (which is why I stay), but I realize that a lot of people don't care for the ridicule they get for wanting to share their ideas.  

I'm glad you haven't given up on OBEs even though you haven't had one yet.  Very persistant!  : )  Have you experienced sleep paralysis or the vibrations?
What about lucid dreaming?

[Lone Wolf]

G'day Countess

I have no problem holding a conversation/argument with a skeptic, I actually enjoy a good argument. I'm a bit of a skeptic too. But for a while there it seemed as though there were more people asking for proof than there were people willing to share their experiences. I do enjoy a good argument, but only if someone is gaining something from it.

As far as my experiences go, well... (looks back through the archives)... I made my first post on alt.out-of-body on the 6th of August 1998, as it just so happens it was a reply to one of your posts. If I recall correctly I was trying to have an OBE a couple of months before I found alt.out-of-body. So lets say I started in June of 98. That would mean I've been trying for over four years now.

Persistent, I'd like to think so. However, I can think of other names for people who refuse to stop trying something even after four years of no success.

I've never experienced the vibrations or sleep paralysis before. Well, sleep paralysis once when I was very young but I don't count that.

The closest I've ever come is to an OBE is a WILD. As I was going to sleep one night I tried to keep my mind clear and focus on my intent to have an OBE. After a while I started to loose my grip on reality a bit, I could see images forming in front of me but I didn't really care because I was loosing lucidity fast at this point. A yellow ball started to form in front of me, other shapes could dimly be seen rotating in front of me like they were floating through space. The ball increased in brightness until it was a beautiful golden colour and a few 'solar flares' could be seen erupting from it's surface. Then suddenly there was an explosion of light, the ball was now actually the sun. I could feel the heat from the sun and the light lit up my surroundings. I was standing on a grassy hill, the long blades of grass swayed in the cool gentle breeze that flowed across the undulating hills that surrounded me. I could hear the birds singing and the sound of trickling water in the distance. My body felt real, it had weight, I could feel my feet on the grass and the warmth of the sun on my skin.

But alas, all this information I gathered about my surroundings was gathered in about two seconds. The shock from the sudden explosion of light caused me to stumble backwards and throw my arms up to shield my face. Of course, I woke up.

The interesting thing is that when the dream reality suddenly exploded into existence I felt my full lucidity return. I knew it was a dream, but I couldn't help but be shocked by the sudden appearance of this new reality.

That was quite a while ago now. I do have a few lucid dreams these days though. Although they are usually pretty short and most often lack detail in the surroundings. OBE's and WILD's, are my biggest problem. If I'm tired enough to let my body fall asleep my mind goes down with it. I just can't seem to hold on to my awareness while my body goes to sleep.

No matter, It will happen when the time is right. I'll have an OBE even if it's the last thing I do.

From
Michael

[cainam_nazier]

Both.  Yes it is biological, along with all other psi related events.  I say biological because it is within the capacity of every one.  Every one can do these things, they are functions of the body.  And yes I also believe that the soul/spirite actually splits and travels.  I look at the astral mostly from the descriptions given here, but I am starting to consider the astral simply as a name for a place where like minds gather.   Just as many would go to the pub, except the door man thumps you on the noggin as you leave resulting ofor many of us, not being able to remember.  We jsut need to learn to duck.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[Grendel]

I have only been studying this for a couple of months now, but I'd have to say B.  And no, I haven't had an OBE, but I really don't think that if I am ever able to have one (I'm still trying... Believe me, how I try...) that it won't change my answer.  I believe that it is simply us using parts of our physical mind.

That being said, I also believe that there really are "spirits" out there, and the astral worlds. And I think that we have the capability to visit and interpret them, with our mind.  But I don't believe that we have any existing consciousness or "soul" if you will, that makes the same journey after death.
Or for that matter, makes the journey during an OBE.

I'm not saying I'm absolutely right on this, or trying to degrade other people's experiences.  I really wish and hope with everything I am, that I'm wrong.  I'd love to think of us having a surviving consciousness that roams the astral plane and continues living after we're gone.  But I really believe that we're just getting a brief, cruel taste of a world of which we cannot be a part of.

But in reality, what does it really matter?  If you believe that you will go to the astral plane and beyond after death, and there is really nothing after death, you'll never know.  That's what makes my position very difficult, if I'm right, nobody will ever know.  If you guys are right, then I'm going to be getting harassed around the astral plane after I'm dead.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

[Kodemaster]

C. A projection which is able to transcend physical limitations.

j e n i

[Frank]

"A" sounds about the closest, so I'll say, A... as "B" is a contradiction in terms and "C" well, it's getting too late to go into.

Yours,
Frank

[TheCountess]

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>  Thank you all (so far) for offering your opinions.  It's really helped get an overall perspective of people's ideas.  

Michael ... you've had a WILD!  Great!  That's about the closest thing to a sleep onset OBE.  So the ability is there within you, although it may be more difficult for you.  

Maybe you should try working with lucid dreams for a while.  Keep an audio dream log (much better that having to write it all down - too tedious).  Keep track of what you see and experience in regular dreams.  Your recall will increase.  From there you can start working towards becoming lucid.  And in my opinion, OBEs are just a different form of lucid dream.  Yes?

[Lone Wolf]

G'day

Thank you for the advice Countess.

I tend to believe that OBE's are the same as WILD's. The difference being that in an OBE you appear in a dream copy of your current surroundings. In a WILD your imagination creates a whole new place to put you in right from the start.

The only difference appears to be where you start. In your body or out of it. I've noticed that with most peoples OBE's, when they go to a place that they have never been to before the experience becomes more like a LD. I believe this might be because they are in fact the same thing.

So for me, whether I have an OBE or a WILD, I don't really care. What I'm after is the experience of consciously entering the 'other reality'.

If anyone disagrees with something I've said, in this post or any other. Feel free to speak your mind.

From
Michael

[shandor]

Well ,I've had a few very rough short obes and it definately feels like something is leaving the physical body, whether it is the soul/spirit I dont think so.......more like a webcam connected to the physical body/brain by the silver cord which transfers the data to the hard drive. I think more and more along the lines of a larger soul/spirit( somwhere? ) else and the consciousness having this life experience as only a small part of the whole which itself is only a small part of another whole which is unimaginable and unexplainable in physical universe language or concepts..In Robert Monroes last book he talks of an obe experience where it seems to me he is meeting all his past lives and they are all waiting for him and cheering him on to atain "lift off velocity"' (clear all their built up kama's and attatchements)so they can all go somwhere together like a big space ship..
It was sort of encouraging to think of the possibility that there are a whole lot of my past lives cheering for me in my humble life's journey.......Travell well in good ways.....Shandor

spz

[TheCountess]

Michael, stick with me then, ok?  Janice (from the ng) has already started up an online group, with only a few members.  Soon she'll be opening it up to the public.  I have learned more from Janice than I have from anyone.  And she's more inclined to believe that OBEs and WILDs are very closely related, if not basically the same thing.  If anyone could help you gain more frequent lucidity, she can.

Plus, I'd like you to be there.  : )

You'd be a great contributor to our conversations.

[Lone Wolf]

Thanks Countess.

You can count me in, although I doubt I could contribute much at this point. But I just can't say no to the opportunity to learn.

From
Michael

[TheCountess]

In your own opinions, what do you think the nature of OBEs to be?

a) Your soul/spirit actually leaves the body and travels either within this world or to an astral-type realm.

b) A curious extention of lucid dreaming, and mainly biological.

c) Something else.  (If so, please explain)


Thanks.  : )