Astral Fake: The Snow Ball Effect

[Colin]

I don't mean to be curt, but my response is "So what?" So what if it is all "fake" (which I doubt)? It's still something we all experience and enjoy on some level or another and wish to commune with each other about. All reality may be an illusion, yet we still live our lives, make plans, fall in love. They exist to us, and that's all that really matters. Why bother worrying about such things?

[Kazbadan]

Thats what every people say. By ilusion i mean not in a budhistic way but in a physically real one. I like my dreams and they are not real. They dont bring me hapiness to m real pysical life. If obes are unreal like dreams the maximum that i can expect its to feel "nice" when waking up...like in a good dream. But if the were (are?) real, so i can do something about to change my life.

[Makaveli]

quote:Let suppose that obes are fake and that the sensation of obe it is just a complex sensation that creates the illusion of "geting out". Maybe you can argue "No, that´s impossible because yesterday i get an obe and i sae a red car in front of my house!And i confirmed it!". Well, i will counter-argue now: maybe it was coincidence (a red car it is not something difficult to guess. Strange it would be to never guess it at least once!).

In your example there is more than just the car color that could be confirmed, which might suggest it's real.  There are many other factors that could suggest this kind of confirmation other than color like the make and design of the car (the difference between a truck and van), any unique characteristics about it, and exactly where the car is parked.  With NDEs vertical perceptions can be very detailed.  

quote:Well, lets go to the next leap on this supposition: if obes are fake (suppose) so we are having non-sense conversations in this forum! If obes are fake maybe we are just feeding in our minds the idea that obes are real. With so many topics and discussions on obes, our mind will create the self-illusion that something must be real! - "Obes are real because there are many people discussing about it"- and we look to the many different topics with a very high degree of credibility (i think that most of the topics here are honest) and our believe will be reinforced.

It's understandable that this could influence people's beliefs about the validity of OBEs.  But how could belief by itself make the actual experience and level of consciousness more real?  Many people describe AP as being indistinguishable from this reality, so how could just belief cause that?  One big problem with this is its common for people with no prior knowledge of AP or NDEs to spontaneously have very real experiences with it.  In these cases belief through discussions like this can't be a factor.  It's very common for children to have spontaneous OBEs but it's unlikely that this is because of belief, because they probably never even heard of OBEs.  With the ideas behind the astral plane it seems that belief can have the opposite effect than the physical.  Since the astral is supposed to be thought and emotion sensitive, if you AP expecting it to be unreal these beliefs will probably be confirmed due to the nature of the environment.  It seems with AP regardless if it's real or hallucination people are accessing something already possible, not something generated by belief alone.  

quote:I like my dreams and they are not real. They dont bring me hapiness to m real pysical life. If obes are unreal like dreams the maximum that i can expect its to feel "nice" when waking up...like in a good dream.

Just because they don't make you feel good doesn't make them unreal.  I'm sure that there are plenty of things in the physical that don't make people feel good or have a large impact on them, but that doesn't make them unreal.  NDEs have been proven to be significantly life changing events, just look at through some experiences and the reported changes that many have after it.

[Blackstream]

Lucid Dreams can be real... or even more real than real life, strange as that sounds.  I know I myself have had LD's that felt like I was really there.  Expectations also play a huge role in a LD.  I.e., if you honestly truely believe you are in a OBE, your dream will mimic that what you think an OBE is like.  Which is why I wonder how we can tell the difference between an OBE and an LD.  I mean... LD's can be so real that it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish from reality.  There are only a few ways to tell.  Stability of environment, breaking the laws of physics, and trying to read something like words or numbers.  All of these reality tests so to speak would give the same results in both LDs and OBEs... with the possible exception of trying to read something.  Are there any OBE or LD reality tests?

Now that is my proposition as to what an OBE could be, if it wasn't really an obe.  Of course that means that the techniques used to induce an OBE are still very awesome and powerful tools for inducing a LD.

There are several arguments against this, most notably the mindsplit effect.  I do not get multiple sets of memories when LDing, yet it is apparently possible to do this while OBing.  Also, Robert Bruce through the use of real time sight has seen people OBing, waved at them, confirmed the OB and the wave moments later.  He's also seen himself APing, then confirmed that through the memory integration later.  How can the mind create this kind of effect?

But on to the real question, why does it matter if it is real?  This to me is honestly a rather evasive question.  It matters a lot if I am really running around on some astral plane, or if I'm actually in a dream.  First off, I know that these entities I'm talking to aren't actually real but parts of my subconscious.  This gives me tools to further understand later on what happened.  If it is a dream, you can try and look behind the scenes to see if your subconscious is trying to tell you something for example.  Also you'll know if you see an entity telling you about future events of the world, how many grains of salt to give it :p  Honestly, for "spiritual development", a term thrown around almost loosely around here, I would NOT trust myself solely for growth, and relying on what I think is an Astral Angel, that is in actuality myself, would be a bad idea.  For me anyways.

Also, meeting up with other astral friends for astral romps is a tad bit impossible if it's all in the head.  Another reason why it's a good idea to know, is that I won't have to waste my time trying to meet up with people if I know that it's "impossible.

Plus, reality is something I just like to know.

[Nagual]

quote:Just suppose for some moments that all these are ideas are true...what do you think about this?!

Before that, let's just suppose for some moments that all these ideas are false... what do you think about this?!

We won't go far with suppositions... [|)]  Are you really wondering if it is real or not, or are you just trying to convince people with suppositions that it's all fake and see how they react?

Personaly, I still don't know which one to choose; so I don't choose.  I agree that the mind can be very powerful/tricky.  But there's one thing so far that point to "it's true".  I experienced (and I am sure others too) the body separation sensation with all the steps involved before reading about it in other people's stories.  It would be an amazing coincidence that all the tricky minds out there would use the exact same steps to trick us...

The next step would be to have an OBE in the RTZ and modify or observe something from there...  Your red car example is not good; you can always wonder if your subconscious did not record the fact that the car was there before; or that you heard and recognized the noise of it's engine; or etc....  A better test would be to modify something or oberve something you never saw or something unusual (that does not repeat) that happened while you were projecting; and then verify it.

To answer your question, even if it does not say much, I supposed I would be quite disapointed if it was all in my mind...

But, I am a bit like you too; I also tend to think that many so called facts became facts after people blindly/wrongfuly preached the words of others without verifiying/understanding them...  It happens in many disciplines and will continue too.  There's not much you can do about it...  The only thing you can do is to keep a clear/neutral/open mind.

As I said in another post; as long as there are several more or less opposing "facts"/theories for one single truth, you can/should not rely on any of them.  Sad, but that's the only way to go (for me)...

[Meedan]

Kazbadan, I'm sorry if I'm about to presume wrong about your attitude to this.

Nobody on this forum is going to be able to prove to you that OBEs are real (mind and brain seperate). That's not their job. If you care so much about it, try to prove it to yourself.

When it comes to proving it to yourself, there are limits. Can you prove that the sun exists? Maybe all of reality is a dream! Maybe the sun doesn't exist. If you entertain those sort of 'illusion' theories, then you'll never have proof of anything.

While you're practicing OBES, you should also try telepathy. Telepathy is - in my opinion - the easiest of the "psychic" skills. Anyone can do it, with very little practice. When you and a friend set up scientific conditions and achieve consistent 70%+ results, it will tell you something.

Does telepathy really show that the mind is not limited to the brain?

Does a "RTZ" OBE with something verified really show that the mind is not limited to the brain?

Does the ability of the mind to physically change the brain really show that the mind is not limited to the brain?

Do all of these NDEs with accurate details of events in the physical world really show that the mind is not limited to the brain?

You can't prove anything to anyone else.

[Kazbadan]

First of all: thamks for your opinions. I really like to have nice  good discussions!

quote:Originally posted by Meedan

 Can you prove that the sun exists? Maybe all of reality is a dream! Maybe the sun doesn't exist.

Meedan: i think that we cannot be so psycotics![]  That kinf of thoughts it is somehow nihilistic and we cannot no nothing about that (are we real). My kinf of question it is not so much as in a Matrix style (but many times i have the same questions). No, my question was related to the reality of obes, taking as a "base", for reality, our real world, our daily lifes. In my supposition, daily life it is the "real" (altought it can be "unreal" as you sugest,like in the Matrix movie) and dreams are the "unreal", because it is something that it happens in your mind.  

Nagual: sorry and thanks! - sorry for my mistake (word "true" instead of "false") and thanks for showing me that mistake. I have corrected it in an edit. BTW: have ever seen any "unusual" thing that has make you believe in obes? Do you believe in your obes?

Blackstream: i really like to see your question answered: how can someone distiguish between obe and lucid dream? that can be a bad problem, because if i get an obe (the first one..when?....)i really like to know that it was true, and not a lucid dream occuring in my mind instead of occuring in RTZ, like NDE.

Makaveli: I know many of the things that you say about NDEs, it is just that i am always asking things, trying to obtain many answers, trying to find the nature of reality.

This leads me to the idea (that some of you said) that only me can proof obes for myself. And thats exactly that i am trying to do! Until now i dindnt get any obe. I think that i will have real possibility to test it in holidays, not now, because i wake up early and have an exaustive day of work and i need sleep to rest my body and mind. If i try to obe in my sleep time i will work like a zombie!

[greatoutdoors]

Kazbadan, your inquiry is why I haven't been on the site too much recently. Some folks are seriously trying to find out what's going on while a lot of others are just "muddying the water" with nonsense. To answer your question, I have evidence satisfactory to me that OBE is real. I was standing up, looking in a mirror, when "I" was suddenly behind my phyiscal body (which was still looking in the mirror). I could see both my body and its reflection. Everything (except the added "me") was perfectly normal. When it dawned on me that I was "outside" my alarm/excitement (I guess) snapped me back to my body. The whole thing took maybe 3 seconds. That was the most peculiar feeling you can ever imagine!

So, short answer to "Does OBE exist?" -- Yes. Now, as to the whole astral plane, "wildlife", etc., etc. -- I don't know. My own inclination at this point is to consider them dreams. But the dream theory doesn't explain why so many people have such similar experiences.

There have been a few efforts on this forum to encourage experimentation in the RTZ, but they have never gone anywhere. I would surmise that's because it is so hard to get to the real time zone, and because controlling such events is obviously difficult.

I've also had a very few episodes of telepathy. Again, those events were crystal clear and accurate. None of that "I see a red-haired man near you" kind of thing. I saw an exchange on this forum between two folks (kids I think) who were communicating "telepathically". It was extremely obvious that they were giving information to each other and changing their stories to match. I don't think they were serious about it.

Having said all this, I would just add, don't discount your dreams entirely. They can be a good source of insight into your deeper feelings. And the pleasant feeling the good ones leave with you are a reward valuable in and of itself. Happy feelings are all too hard to come by in this world.

[Thing]

as i said once... if they are fake, i think we found "the perfect drug"!!!

there are so many fakes... its easy to catch people

astral projection is when you enter the astral "dimension"
out of body experience is when you are in the so called "real dimension"  but out of your body.

[James S]

We live in a society that for the last couple of hundred years has been turning to science for all the explainations to the questions this world has to offer. Science achieves these answers through tests and measurements, and if measurements arent possible, then through extrapolations based on existing measurements.

For the most part, dealing with issues of the physical world, this idea is fine. Trouble is, the rules of science that we've all been taught from a very early age, don't apply well to the metaphysical world as this world can't yet be measured, and there are precious few existing measurements that can be used as a basis for theories.

We have two main parts to our mind that are in opposition when it somes to subjects of metaphysics – the logical (reasoning, analytical) mind and the intuitive (instinctive, feeling, imaginative) mind. From early childhood our logical mind learns all that we are taught by society – boundaries, conditions, rules. The intuitive mind is not bound by conditions. It is capable of using our imagination to ultimately shape the reality we are in.

Things of the metaphysical world – OBE's, psychic abilities, are all made possible by the boundless creative powers that our intuitive mind is capable of. What reigns these abilities in is the logical mind, conditioned by scientific reasoning to tell us that these things are not really physically possible, therefore it is just imagination, which doesn't really have any power over our physical world.

To look at OBEs through our logical, educated mind, denies us their true nature. It doesn't really work, except for those few who have learned to apply their logical mind to analysing how such things might actually be workable. To truly accept OBEs for what they are and what they can do for us requires us to switch off the logical mind for a while and look at them with our intuitive minds.

Regards,
James.

[Nagual]

quote:Nagual: sorry and thanks! - sorry for my mistake (word "true" instead of "false") and thanks for showing me that mistake. I have corrected it in an edit. BTW: have ever seen any "unusual" thing that has make you believe in obes? Do you believe in your obes?

Don't be sorry!  I did not see any mistake.  "True" and "false" can be both both corrects; it just depend whose ideas you were refering to (your idea that it's fake or people's ideas that it's true)...  [|)]  I was just trying to say that "What if" games dont help much.

I had plenty of "unusual" experiences, but none in the RTZ.  I might (pure speculation) have been in the RTZ a few times (when I have my weird encounters with some "things" crawling on me or my bed, but I cannot see or hear anything in those states; I can only sens the energy...

[SomeBloke]

You can read all you like about other people's experiences but it will never prove it to you.  There was another thread about 'proof' - proof is really important to some of us.  Proof is the basis of faith for many people - having experienced and confirmed psychic phenomena we are prepared to accept other people's descriptions of their own extraordinary experiences but always, I hope,  remaining healthily sceptical.
I've only had one experience where I remember getting up out of my physical body and wandering around the RTZ, but it was backed up by physiological reactions from other people (confirmed when I woke up, disturbed sleep) and also seeing a woman hanging up a curtain in my mum's house - my mum (unknown to me) had been using a flimsy stool perched on top of a footlocker to hang up curtains - really precarious! So I warned her.
If you are prepared to accept other people's 'proof' read Robert Monroe's first book - 'Journeys out of the body'.  It is by far his best book, and it was immediately after reading this that I experienced my first conscious-exit OBE!

[Thing]

but remember that robert monroe's didn't really give the "proof" people wanted. (people, science)

[SomeBloke]

Yeah he did, extensively.  Only his first book really deals with it.
Time after time he claims to experience an OBE and come back with information that can subsequently be verified in the real world.
His second book was a real let-down for me, and his third book was good but more esoteric.  (I am sure he would/has disagreed:))

[syrus]

To stop asking why would be a mistake and to be critical of others seeking knowledge is not good either.  We should invite others to ask us why we believe what we do for no better reason than self analysis.

The issue here is the definition of what is real and what is unreal.  

Webster defines real as not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent.

But you have to ask yourself....not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent...based on what standard?  What are you going to use as your standard?  (The Bible, Koran, Gita, Buddha, Christ or personal experience)

Physics and advance mathematics shows that time travel is indeed possible, but we can not reproduce it in a lab.  Does that make it unreal?

OBE's is just the opposite in my view.  We have thousands of people with similar experiences in their own laboratories (their bodies or outside them) and that experience can not be reproduce with physics or advance mathematics such that another person can replay your experience.

Kazbadan is playing devils advocate maybe, but he also raises good points to be considered as you explore your reality.  And, when we cut to the quick of the matter, we make our reality and simply share similar experiences with other individuals creating their reality.  The experiences that are in common we call real.  

If I tell you I have a pink dragon with purple spots and 7 legs walking around in my backyard, you would say that's unreal.  But, if you came to my house and saw my pink dragon with purple spots and 7 legs you would say its real now based on your personal experience.

Press forward!

Once you find the truth, I believe you will still have to mow your grass, brush your teeth, and take out the trash.

[Kazbadan]

By unreal obes i mean obes that only happens in the mind of the subject. Obes that didnt happened. Illusions, dreams. By a real obe i mean in fact getting out of the body, instead of having a realistic sensation of that. You may say that hte sensation by itself it means that it is real, but lets not be so "nihilistic" (in a certain way). Getting out of body it is just that: getting out, not dream about that.

And if someone can really get out, lets not have illusions: the subject must be able to confirm it in a solid way. I must say: "I saw this, and that, and blabla, and the number was blabla, etc", do you get the point. To me, the argument that you cannot see the numbers/letters in the astral because of the nature of the astral plane, it is weak. Why does everybody says that in the astral your senses (vision included) are very good, (greater that while beingin the body) but in fact you cannot read anything?

Any scientist can respond to that saying:"People wants so much to believe in obes that their minds creat everything to mantain such illusion. In fact, if they «get out», their mind will not be able to read anything and thus they will never confirm that were wrong. It is a defensive mechanism: the mind stops to read because if doing that it would show to the subject that the number would not match the real one, confirming in this way that obes are unreal (something that the subject mind doesnt want to accept".

Now, what you  think about this idea?

[Blackstream]

Actually, a scientist would be more likely to say, "One that is 'astral projecting' is not able to read, because they are in fact dreaming.  And in dreams, no one is able to read as the mind cannot hold the words in place or keep them from changing."  I'm sure any scientist would jump to raise their eyebrows at the extreme similarities between LDs and OBEs.  Difficulty in memory recall, impressionability on the environment around them from the subconscious mind, expectations playing a huge role in what you see, same type of "super powers", ect.

I have heard people however, who have claimed to have read books while obeing and could look away and look back and the words didn't change, so I wonder if reading could in fact be a reliable OBE OR LD test.

[Meedan]

Kazbadan, You should do a search on 'proof' or 'card experiment'.

Taking a few results as examples, the following are some of the users that claim to have had proof that they were out of body:

Beavis
Links Shadow
wonderboy
gerble king
Donna
Patty
nightflier101

There are probably many more. Try a search for 'card experiment'.

[Nagual]

quote: I wonder if reading could in fact be a reliable OBE OR LD test.

Not for me.  None of the "light switch", "digital clock", or "book" tests do work for me...  Most of the time they are stable...

quote: By unreal obes i mean obes that only happens in the mind of the subject. Obes that didnt happened. Illusions, dreams.

Now, who said that dreams are just illusions from the mind...?  Maybe they are, maybe not.  I personaly don't know.

[Kazbadan]

Let suppose that obes are fake and that the sensation of obe it is just a complex sensation that creates the illusion of "geting out". Maybe you can argue "No, that´s impossible because yesterday i get an obe and i sae a red car in front of my house!And i confirmed it!". Well, i will counter-argue now: maybe it was coincidence (a red car it is not something difficult to guess. Strange it would be to never guess it at least once!). Our mind it is very good on inventing non-existing-similar-to-existing-things. Like Nostradamus prophecies (maybe they are fake because they could apply to a lot of things and they have thousand of interpretations...they are really vague!).

Well, lets go to the next leap on this supposition: if obes are fake (suppose) so we are having non-sense conversations in this forum! If obes are fake maybe we are just feeding in our minds the idea that obes are real. With so many topics and discussions on obes, our mind will create the self-illusion that something must be real! - "Obes are real because there are many people discussing about it"- and we look to the many different topics with a very high degree of credibility (i think that most of the topics here are honest) and our believe will be reinforced.

Maybe we are getting in a vicious cycle of self-believing. I think that in psychology this effect have a name. It is like a snow ball.

Just suppose for some moments that all these are ideas are true...what do you think about this?!

edit:there was a mistake when i say "Just suppose for some moments that all these are ideas are true..." i wanna mean:"Just suppose for some moments that all these are ideas are
false...

sorry for the mistake...[:I]