LD vs OBE

[LogoRat]

For me, LD's are in a sense an OBE.
Dreams occur outside the physical mind.
So an LD is infact a very low active obe.

You are aware of yourself but you are still in a dreamy environment.
In an OBE you have stepped out of that dreamenvironment.
More so when you astral travel.

Some think that LD's and regular dreams are a hologram inside their brain and that it is very physical like.
And those people say that an OBE is the same (a hologram inside the brain).
Ill say they are ignorant to the fact that they are more than a physical body.
You know better, let them have their limited belief, they probably get simething out of it.. im pretty sure you dont, so let them be.
Focus on how you see the world and let everyone have their own thoughts about the reality, you dont need to proove anyone wrong.
Go with the flow and follow your heart.

Dream..............LD...............................OBE
[0%----------------50%------------------------------100%--] Awareometer

[roninxyz]

For me, the LD / OBE phenomena is on a continuum of conscious awareness while outside the bounds of consensus reality.

I think a lot of these issues have to do with how we were conditioned as children to accept some things as 'real' and reject others as 'fantasy'.

From what I've been reading, our consciousness can operate in such a way that elements of our unconscious can exist simultaneously with 'external' reality, hopelessly confusing the question of whether one is having an OBE or a LD.

I think the LD/OBE duality doesn't accurately reflect the phenomenological experience of those states. I have read several experiences from people who think its all in their head, only to have someone contact them later because they were contacted in a dream, or other such examples.

I believe a person may be profoundly aware and use that awareness to plumb the depths of their own psyche, remaining completely within their own unconscious, or use that awareness to explore the external world around them and the different beings in that world. I think a lot of that has to do with the personality of the individual. I'm talking about introversion and extroversion, as well as the dominant functions: intuition, sensation, thinking, feeling... I believe these personality differences account for the tendancy of people to explore certain aspects of this spectrum, or continuum of consciousness.

[Frequent Flier]

Well a lucid dream "is just a dream", not real, just an experience created by our experiencing machine - the brain - while an OBE is real.

We can bring back verifiable info, we feel and sense that we are in touch with, interacting with an environment wich is real, not "created" by the brain, our presence is sometimes sensed, etc.
All indications that it might be more than just a hallucination.

Even if during a lucid dream psychic activity, projecting, etc, are possible, the AP is not an experience entirely created by the mind/brain, whereas a LD originates in the mind or uses the mind/brain as it's support.

Otherwise it's not a "dream" anymore.. there has to be a difference.


The difference is obvious.  I can be lucid dreaming that i'm walking or running or i can actualy be doing either of these........

[catmeow]

Well I think LD's and OOB's are different.  

I think that in LD, consciousness resides in the physical body and is of low-quality, with impaired mental function, limited recall of daily activities, a lot of fantasy constructs and basically an internal experience.  The environment, if located in a known physical loaction does not accurately reflect the actual physical conditions, weather etc at the time.

In OOB on the other hand, consciousness resides external to the physical body, is heightened, with expanded senses, greater sense of reality, 360 deg vision sometimes, communication by telepathy rather than spoken etc etc.  The OOB environment, if located in the physical world can be an accurate reflection of the physical at the time.

There may be a sliding scale between the two, based on the mind-split between physical and OOB consciousness, ie if most of your consciousness is in the physical you will have more fantasy, lower awareness, etc.  If most consciousness is OOB then expanded consciousness, heightened awareness, clearer senses etc.

I think they did some EEG research on several OOBers and found that EEG patterns when OOB were quite different from REM sleep and LD patterns.  LD/OOB... they're quite different.

That's what I think anyway...

catmeow

[holy reality]

quote:Originally posted by BurningAngel

ok, am i the only one that would rather be punched in the throat than hear another person on lucidity.com say that an OBE is a Lucid Dream.....im a huge genius watch this...if OBEs were LDs why do you have them during cardiac arrest, or why do you have them when on drugs, or why do runners sometimes get them when running.
 I have news for you, these people arent asleep.

conclusion: OBEs are NOT LDs
(anyone who thinks otherwise) <--stupid

who made you the authority on the subject?

It's been implied that we are always dreaming (something about dreaming and waking operating under 40hz brainwaves, or something) but we are just tuned into external senses while awake.

and anyway, you can have hypnagogia while wide awake supposedly, and hypnagogia is widely associated with dreaming.

consider also that you can OBE or LD from sleep paralysis, and sleep paralysis stems from REM, which, guess what, is a stage you dream during.

is there a fundamental difference other than how it is induced (exit sensations), not to me based upon MY OBSERVATIONS, does that make me stupid?

"We can bring back verifiable info, we feel and sense that we are in touch with, interacting with an environment wich is real, not "created" by the brain, our presence is sometimes sensed, etc."

Who is we? A lot of people (like me, and others here) cannot do one thing by a traditional OBE that we cannot do in a LD as well.

There is no ultimate answer or truth to this. I can get info from LDs that is losely, or sometimes LARGELY verifiable in reality... and... sort of with OBEs.

Though I think relative realisticness may be ultimately determined by what stage of operation your mind is in rather than whether you are LDing or OBEing..... as for total separation of body and mind I don't know, I would think that if that were to happen it would be an NDE, not an OBE.... and that the mind would have to think it was dying, and that you would be in a profoundly different level of consciousness/mental operation than a traditional OBE, myself.

[BurningAngel]

hypnogogia is one thing.......but what of those who have OBE while walking down the street? this is NOT hypnogogia....you would need to claim they were in fact in a full blown dream while going about their daily life...which is preposterous. some people have obes while jogging...and observe their jogging body below. perhaps i should have been more specific in my original post..... i do believe there is a connection between OBE and lucid dreaming..... but i think it is rediculous to say that the "Lucid Dreaming" explanation neatly explains these states of conciousness. I dont know where you heard that we are "always" dreaming. Even when your asleep your not dreaming the entire time you lay asleep, only at certain times.

[holy reality]

quote:Originally posted by BurningAngel

hypnogogia is one thing.......but what of those who have OBE while walking down the street? this is NOT hypnogogia....you would need to claim they were in fact in a full blown dream while going about their daily life...which is preposterous. some people have obes while jogging...and observe their jogging body below. perhaps i should have been more specific in my original post..... i do believe there is a connection between OBE and lucid dreaming..... but i think it is rediculous to say that the "Lucid Dreaming" explanation neatly explains these states of conciousness. I dont know where you heard that we are "always" dreaming. Even when your asleep your not dreaming the entire time you lay asleep, only at certain times.

i've never heard of people OBEing while jogging myself, and if their surroundings looked real then i'd be inclined to say it was more than an average LD, but they are still more or less on the same principle.

and we can dream during any stage of sleep, not just REM.

i think extreme physical exertion can stimulate dreams, hallucinations, OBEs, and all sorts of different states, though, can't it?

here's what i found about the dreaming thing a while ago.
Ouspensky also discovered that he had a certain control over these states and could alter his 'half-dreams' at will, an ability that many readers of 'lucid dream manuals' work assiduously to perfect. But what is most arresting is Ouspensky's remark that "we have dreams continuously, both in sleep and in a waking state." Had he lived to see it, Ouspensky would have been gratified by the hard, neurological evidence for this fact. According to neuroscientists Denis Pare and Rodolfo Llinas, the brain's simultaneous 40 Hz 'neural oscillations', which are associated with consciousness, also occur during REM sleep. Given this, Pare and Llinas were led to the conclusion that the only difference between our dreaming and waking states is that in waking states, the "closed system that generates oscillatory states" is modulated by incoming stimuli from the outside world. In other words, what we call "waking state" is really an REM dream state, with a sensory topping. Or, as Ouspensky put it, we shouldn't speak of being either asleep or awake, but of "sleep plus waking state."
http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/163_hypnagogia.shtml

[Tombo]

Whether OBE and LD are different I do not know but i observed an interesting Phenomenon that also others have reported. after some dreams I just wake up immmediately in bed I kind of feel how the dream is slowly fading while laying in bed. But there are the "LDs" or maybe OBe's were I can feel i clear movement thru layers lasting for several seconds before I wake up "back" in my body. I wonder if these 2 kinds of LD's  maybe happen in different places (Brain vs Astral) Any thoughts appreciated!

[catmeow]

Well actually I have heard of quite a few instances of OOB's occurring while the physical body was engaged in active, practical demanding actions, such as running, doing a job of work or even driving a car.  From memory there is a book called "Out of Body Experiences" by Celia Green who lists some of these.  Curiously Celia Green also wrote a book called "Lucid Dreams" where she gives many accounts of Lucid dreams.  It seems that we can have fully conscious OOB's separated from our physical body, whilst the physical body continues to function AND THINK independently.  Check out Chapter 3 of RB's book entitled "The Incredible Mind Split" (I think).

catmeow

[BurningAngel]

ok, am i the only one that would rather be punched in the throat than hear another person on lucidity.com say that an OBE is a Lucid Dream.....im a huge genius watch this...if OBEs were LDs why do you have them during cardiac arrest, or why do you have them when on drugs, or why do runners sometimes get them when running.
 I have news for you, these people arent asleep.

conclusion: OBEs are NOT LDs
(anyone who thinks otherwise) <--stupid