baptism / blessing

[kakkarot]

ask for God's blessing []

~kakkarot

[SmileySpirit14]

why does she need a baptism? what does it prove? i know it symbolizes jesus and *mumble grumble* but i can baptize myself in a fricken bathtub and say a prayer! why should it matter who does it? anyway, my advice is to let your kids do their own religion. my parents didnt choose my reliogion or make me go to church or read the quran, ect. its up to your kids. its their right. have a nice life
SS14

[SpectralDragon]

If god is how he is portrayed (and even if he isn't in a lot of cases), you don't need a church, thus you only need prayer and your love to protect the child. If the child follows the right path, then she will be fine, and that path is influenced by you two, so take care how you raise her, it's the most important thing to her protection.

[shedt]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I should ask my wife why it is so important for our child too be baptized.

Then I'll go from there to make a decision.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by shedt



I want my child protected,

Protected from what?

[drastr]

My mother is Catholic, so coming from her stand point – infants are baptized to "save'" them from "original" sin.  I guess the idea is that if something were to happen to the child before they were baptized, they could not pass into heaven.

Not all branches of Christianity practice infant baptism.  Some believe it's something an individual would do later in life (when they could make their own decision) – then it is a personal remission of sin and a conversion/initiation in to that belief system.  

You could try asking your wife if she would wait on the baptism until your child was older.  Would it be OK with you if your child then made that decision on their own?

My father was not Catholic and didn't want me to be baptized...but I was at my mother's insistence.  At 24, I am not Catholic, but my mother believes. I am, because I was baptized such.  I have my own beliefs, so I believe I am not Catholic.  I guess I'm saying in the long run, it may not matter, because your child will grow up to have its own beliefs.

I hope this helps.  Sorry for rambling.

[Nay]

My opinion..   Why does it matter if the child DOES get baptized?  It will make your wife happy, ease her mind and it certaintly won't hurt anything, so why not?

I agree that you can do your own blessing but if it eases your wife's mind I don't see why you can't compromise.[^]

Nay

[shedt]

I personally feel that it is a inituation, so it does bother me. I rather have my daughter choose what she would like, and what religion she belongs too.

and yeah, I don't believe in original sin, and I don't want my child to have such a burden, being taught that such a thing exists.

I'm compiling the reasons why I don't want it.
www.flowingthoughts.com/articles/why.html

protected ? from negs i guess, or just bad evil stuff. But I'm not even sure if there is such a thing. Part of me might believe so but......... hmmm

[Asisya]

why not go to some water source (the source of life), be it a lake, river or the sea? The three of you wade in and do your own baptism symbolizing the spiritual bond that you intend to have in your family, the acknowledgement of all of your beings be a part of the universe, representing your personal promise to your baby to not forget your holy connection, to raise them to not leave behind their own sense of wonderment and to continue to try to walk on some path of self-enlightenment. Who says the church need be involved? of course, it's only an idea []

[shaman]

Your wife initially agreed, now she does not. Either she changed her mind, or maybe family pressure, or maybe she just wants now to put you in front of a fait accompli. In my family some got both baptised and circumsized! The parents eventually divorced. A truely judeo-christian experiment. And today these children dont care about that relgion or the other one. I just think all that is non sens to me. Religion has been invented by people. You can believe in God and not believe in any religion. In India, there is a saying that says that there are as many religions as there are people... Eventually, hopefully, the children will become what they have to be (You have to become what you are!).

I think all this issue is very personnal and I wish you good luck and the best in your married life. So I gave you the example in our family and I will not give you any advice, just best of luck, since I feel that you will need it.

[noneofyourbusiness]

it certainly wont hurt anything, but i can understand why you would not want your child baptized. why does your wife insist on having your child baptized, and after she said she wouldnt have them baptized.did'nt jesus give his life so that there would be no more sin. If she is a believer then she should understand not to be afraid of child sin, or whatever about the babies having sin,because all sins were forgiven when he died.  dont know what else to tell you.im catholic but i understand your not wanting her to baptize her.oh well!

                                           noneofyourbusinesss

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by shedt


protected ? from negs i guess, or just bad evil stuff. But I'm not even sure if there is such a thing. Part of me might believe so but......... hmmm

I would personally suggest not worrying about things you are not even sure exist or not. I have never been baptised or had any other protection ritual and I have never experienced anything that would lead me to believe such things exist.

But what does it matter if she is or is not baptised? If it gives your wife peace of mind then why not give her that? It is not saying that your child will be Christian and nothing else forever and ever. Your child will choose what she wants to believe in reguardless of what you do. Maybe your child will decide to follow Christianity, Islam, Paganism, etc. It is her choice and being baptised at such a young age will have no baring on their decision later. I was raised Christian most of my life, but I no longer am. It was my choice. The burden I have is not from the religion but from my parents who are Christians and have the dogmatic expectations. Christainity does have insight to offer if one looks. Instead of trying to censor what your daughter experiences, give her access to Christianity as well as all religious and spiritual ideas so that she can find what is best for her. If you want to keep her from Christianity, then how are you any different that someone who wants to keep her exclusively in it? You just have to trust that your daughter will know what is best for her and follow that path. As a parent you can help her follow her own path as she sees it right for her.

[kakkarot]

to be a christian, one must CHOOSE to follow God's will and seek Him out. by definition, a christian is one who follows Christ, and one cannot follow ANYTHING if they do not have the mental capacity to understand what is happening around them and the mental capacity to make choices based upon their observations ^_^

so baptising children is completely useless and any sub-religion of christianity which tries to tell you otherwise is a load of crock and not worth your time [].

i know what it's like to love someone so dearly and to want good things for them [] but unfortunately, baptising your daughter is not going to be a good thing for her (though it won't be bad either).

but there are other things you can do for her, like just loving her as you already do []. be well

~kakkarot

[Lighthouse]

I got this from a Unity Church website, Unity is a Christ Based Church with emphasis on helping people acheive Christ Consciousness... they have a little different take on the baptism thing.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/unity.htm

Baptism: Within Christendom, some faith groups follow the tradition started by John the Baptist; they totally immerse the body in water. Others regard baptism as symbolic; they simply sprinkle drops of water on the person. The Unity School does neither. They note that Jesus never used baptism during his ministry; and so, they do not have formal baptism sacrament. Rather they encourage every believer to attain a Spiritual Baptism which is a deeply personal event, a cleansing "prayer experience with Spirit, an ultimate dialogue between an individual and God." The individual emerges purified, having experienced a religious conversion of great intensity.


--Kerri

[Lighthouse]

Shedt,

There are also other blessings you can do... sort of a compromise.  There is one such blessing ceremony published in Illuminata by Marianne Williamson... Her beliefs are mainly based on A Course in Miracles which is christ based and very similar to the beliefs expressed by the Unity Church.  I would also do an internet search to see other alternatives.

I too have been struggling with this same issue.  Some schools of thought feel that baptism allows the baptised to commune with the Holy Spirit and creates the link between the heart of God and the person.  It is my personal belief that God dwells within each of us (God is Life) and therefore such a ritual is not necessary.  

Your wife may feel that the spirit or soul of your child needs this baptism in order to have the ability to commune with God.  If it is really important to you that this not be done, I suggest search your feelings as to why.  What would it hurt to allow her to have your child baptised if it is important to her?  What are your reasons for not wanting it done?  Do you feel this threatens your belief system in some way?  These are not questions to answer in the Forum but things you might wnat to ask yourself.  By digging deeper, you may find some things you need to come to terms with that need to be brought to the forefront of your mind in order to release some preconceived limitation that you may hold in your mind.

Good luck and take care,
Kerri

[Jeff_Mash]

Hey Shedt,

Looks like you and I are both in the same situation, in more ways than one.  It's almost as if I could have written your original post.

My whole argument to my wife was/is this: "What is the point of baptising the child?"  After all, you should KNOW why you are doing the thing which you are doing.

Most baptisms (especially in the Catholic religion) symbolize, among other things, the dedication of the baby to God.  Not to mention, most Catholic priests won't even baptise you if you are not Catholic, or attend their church.  There are exceptions, of course.

So I have always been a strong supporter of not wanting to baptise my child, for two reasons:  

1) Because I believe that if a person wants to be baptised, then they should be old enough to know what it means and why they are doing it

2) Because I don't want to do something just out of tradition.....because if we're only doing it because "that's the way it's always been done," then what's the point?

However, my very own arguments are starting to work against me.  If, in fact, there really is no point, and it's all just a tradition, then what the hell is the big deal?

So now my thinking is starting to change to this: What is more important, not having my kid baptised and therefore feeling justified in my beliefs, or simply allowing my wife to be happy and do this trivial tradition for the sake of happiness?

I am starting to lean towards the second option.  I know what I believe.  I know the truth as it pertains to my life.  So why not be satisfied in my feelings, and just do this little traditional "baptism" thing?  Even I was baptised as a baby, and you know something?  I can't remember a friggin' thing about it...and neither will your little one.  So in order to spare future arguments and sore spots with the wife, if this is what she *really* wants, then have the comfort of knowing that it really makes no difference to your child.  They will not remember it, and as far as they are concerned, you could be at Burger King and they would be acting the same.

Just my two cents.....it may change as the wife gets more hormonal with her pregnancy!

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

For the record I too am totally against baptism. As I understand it is is not merely supposed to be a commitment to God, but a commitment to the church and all it stands for.

Religion is one of the single biggest problems still facing mankind today, just as it has been for the last 2000 years including the dark ages, so why would anyone wish to dedicate their child to that legacy?

Later in life children are, in many parts of the world, taught religious education in schools as if it were a fact, rather than of historical interest, and many children grow up to be religiously indocrinated as a direct result, which in turn effectively isolates them from the Universal truths and realities they need to understand in order to fulfill the purposes of the current physical life, so important in ongoing progression on the path.

I agree that a child does not remember being baptised, but baptism is nevertheless symbolic on the part of the parents of a wish to see their child indoctrinated in this way, and which is profoundly against the best interests of the child. Universal laws do come into effect in these situations; we all create our own realities and have the power to affect the reality of others. Baptism is a ritual which results in energies as a cause, the effect of which is to realise the wish of the parents to indoctrinate their child in this way, against the freewill of the child.

As Jeff has mentioned, when the child is old enough they have the freewill to decide whether they wish to be baptised or not, and that is the way the parents of children should proceed.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[wendi]

Baptism is an initiation for some people.  You could just say your own prayer over her, but if its going to cause your wife anxiety, you might want to have it done in a church.  Baptism in the Catholic Church is more of a blessing, while Baptism in a Pentecostal Chuch is an initiation.  Try to find a liberal church that just does Child Blessing days (some Pentecostal churches do them too).

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, or Zen.  Not any religion or cultural system.  I am not from the East or the West, not out of the ocean or up from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not composed of elements at all.  I do not exist, am not an entity in this world or the next, did not descend from Adam or Eve or any origen story.  My place is placeless, a trace of the traceless.  Neither body or soul.  I belong to the beloved, have seen the two worlds as one and that one call to and know, first, last, outer, inner, only that breath breathing human being.  Rumi

[thankful]

In case you're interested, here's the quotation on baptism from Robert Bruce's book "Practical Psychic Self-Defense".  It's on page 321 and says:

"The Baptism Ritual
    Baptism is a sacred ritual that dedicates your spirit to God.  this association brings you under God's spiritual protection.  All religions have some kind of baptism rite for this purpose.  Unfortunately, many people today do not baptize their children, thinking this is a meaningless, outdated exercise.  This is understandable, but by all that I know, baptism is a very wise thing to do for yourself and your children.  Think of baptism as an anti-Neg spiritual inoculation.  While baptism does not provide perfect protection, it significantly reduces your chances of having serious Neg-related problems.  
    The essential difference between baptized and unbaptized people can be likened to the difference between holy water and ordinary tap water.  Holy water is exorcized, blessed and dedicated to
God, which turns it into a powerful holy symbol of purity.  Holy water has a protective cleansing spiritual glow that repels Negs in the same manner as sacred symbols and words.  Plain tap water has only its natural properties."

I baptized my children in the bathtub in a private sort of dedication to God.  All it takes is a simple prayer like "God I dedicate this child to you or I commit (child's name) into your hands".  God will hear you.  I've also had them "dedicated" in a church. There's something special about a community of people witnessing the dedication of a child to God and giving their "yes" to this child belonging to God.  I have a daughter with Cerebral Palsy and I really feel that attacks on her have diminised since the baptism, she is really vulnerable because of her condition and negs take advantage of the weak.  Now she is much calmer and sleeps much better through the night, previously she woke up several times a night crying.  In general, she is just a happier kid.  Hope this helps!

thankful

[BlueKanga]

I was baptised as an infant in a Protestant church. I don't remember it, and I think the physical sprinkling with water has had no effect on me at all as a person. But my parents' attitude toward me as being holy and set apart for God because of my baptism, and how they raised me as a result of that, effected me. Some of those effects were positive, and some were negative. Your daughter will not remember being baptised. The greatest blessing she can receive is parents who love her and raise her in a way that encourages her to seek and love truth. It seems like the greater issue is your relationship with your wife, and your respect for her spiritual convictions.

[exothen]

Adrian,

quote:As I understand it is is not merely supposed to be a commitment to God, but a commitment to the church and all it stands for.

It means different things to different Christian traditions.

quote:Religion is one of the single biggest problems still facing mankind today, just as it has been for the last 2000 years including the dark ages, so why would anyone wish to dedicate their child to that legacy?

Depends on which religion you are talking about. Since you mention 2000 years, I'll assume you mean Christianity. Sure there have been bad things done in the name of Christianity, but what of the good that's been done? At least give a balanced view instead of promoting a distorted version of history and Christianity.

quote:which in turn effectively isolates them from the Universal truths and realities they need to understand in order to fulfill the purposes of the current physical life, so important in ongoing progression on the path

And what makes you so sure you know the Universal truths? On what basis and authority can you claim to know the Universal truths and realities that those raised in religious cannot possess? You are being very dogmatic and intolerant of views other than your own; you sound very religious.[]

Give me one good reason why I should believe anything you say (especially in light of the following quote).

quote:we all create our own realities and have the power to affect the reality of others.

Okay...I don't get it. First you complain about all religous people and education, and who knows what else, when, according to you, it's all in your own head. Why don't you change your own reality and be done with it? Quite the contradiction you are wrapped up in.

Wendi,

quote:Baptism in the Catholic Church is more of a blessing, while Baptism in a Pentecostal Chuch is an initiation.

I would think it is actually the opposite, not that it really matters.

[shedt]

my daughter is not baptised, and I feel sorry for my wife but i do not think i will change my mind. i've tried too look for a solution, but what really bothers me is that she has not.

Why should I be the one to have to comprimise my beliefs ?

If my daughter when she is much older and able to think for herself wishes to then i will let her. personally i think though i will not allow it until she is much older, or at least until she is 18.

I view it currently almost as sex. it's easy too pursway someone esp. when they are experiencing hormonal changes etc. i want her to have a clear open mind on this, and not make a decision hastely based on emotions.

I hope though that it will be a pleasant journey of have with my daughter, for we will learn together i hope about many things.

[shedt]

My wife and I have a new-born baby. My wife is Christian, and I am Agnostic. I guess my belief system is a mix bag of this and that. The thing is I feel baptism is a inituation... and before we got married, even when we first started dating, I told her that if I was to have children they would not be baptised. I explained why. When we got serious she agreed with me, if we had children that we would not have them baptised. Before we got married, I told her again, that I would rather not get married if she expected us too have children and get them baptised, that I would want too call the wedding off.

She still agreed no baptisim.

I'm a spiritual person. Now my wife wants a baptism. I explained I would rather have some sort of alternative....

but I don't know what alternatives there are.

Can anyone suggest anything ?

Some sort of blessing maybe ?

I want my child protected, so many some sort of blessing that is not really attached too any religion. i dunno let me think for a bit.....