Is it as easy as they say?

[Manix]

It is easy for some. But's it's alot easier for some than it is others. For the others catagory (I fall into it) success varies. I must be on the FAR latter end becuase I've been trying for around 5 years and haven't had but one planned OBE. Even the unplanned ones are few and far between. But don't give up hope. I'm used to representing the end of any line no matter what the subject lol!

[manuel]

It is as easy as you think it is.

[breezeman]

Or as hard as I think it is then....hmm.. So how to go about thinking it is easy..

[mar10fl]

if you think you can you will. in time.
if you dont think you can you wont.
its all about willpower and how much you actually want to get out which makes it easy or hard. if you are extremely devoted to attempting AP, i say you should get out within the first 2-3 months for sure

[thelou]

"What ever the mind of man can conceive, and believe, it can achieve.  

I agree with the others.  Your level of belief and determination will affect your results.  The most important thing is to keep reading and expanding your awareness.   Also keep a dram log, as you will expand your awareness of your dreams.  This plays an important part.  Also keep a log of all of your projections as this will help you learn.  Especially when you start thinking that you are not making any progress, then you can go back and read your log and see that "oh there was progress here and there and I did not even realize that was progress".  

Thelou

[Phong]

Making a physical sandwich with physical bread is undeniably simple. Making an astral sandwich with astral bread is even simpler.

Think of projecting as something you do at the astral level of your mind, not with your reasoning and intellect, which are really only usefull in the physical domain. Allow your awareness of this part of yourself to surface through silent meditation, and it will feel natural.

Don't try making an astral sandwich with physical bread.

[Makaveli]

AP is very easy for me now all I have to do is strongly intend on projecting and maybe repeat a few affirmations before going to sleep.  In my first year of attempting I only projected 3 times because I thought of it as hard to achieve, somewhat scary, and that complex techniques were required.  Because of doubt I was making it much harder than it really is.  Now the difficult thing seems to be staying emotionally in control while in the astral.

[cube]

Wow, I didn't expect this to turn into such a pompous pie in the sky kind of thread.

All you folks saying it's so simple (manuel in particular), if you understand it so well then it should be easy for you to write down the steps you use to have a conscious projection whenever you want.

So let's have those lists! [8D]

[Phong]

Cube, I believe this desire many of you in this forum have, to be able to do it "whenever you want," contributes heavily to making it difficult. You're looking for a mechanism to apply to yourself, a set of rules to follow, or system of parts. This way of thinking is okay for manipulating objects in the physical world. But think of what you know of the spirit - it's purely unmechanized, follows no rules except the ones it creates, and cannot be subdivided into parts.

I once got into a very in-depth discussion with Anne Varnes about why our soul would choose to experience such limited and painful existence in the physical domain. She argued that there was no other way to experience limitless existence (nothing to compare it to), when I argued that it was some kind of cosmic mistake. We created all sorts of logical frameworks and got nowhere. Then she said, "well, we're doing a lot of human-level thinking," and I suddenly became aware of a different level of thought. That night, I had my first wake-induced experience. I didn't "want" to do it, I did it because that was the natural experience of my ego-less soul.

Deepak Chopra, in his theory of synchrodestiny, states that our "local mind" oftentimes clouds and warps the intent of the "nonlocal mind." When we align our limited local intent with the unlimited nonlocal intent, the illusion of difficulty is dispersed. Here is his list of comparisons between the local mind and the nonlocal mind.

Local mind
• ego mind
• individual mind
• individual consciousness
• conditioned consciousness
• linear
• operates within spacetime causality
• time-bound and limited
• rational
• conditioned in to habitual ways of thinking and behavior shaped by individual and collective experience
• separates
• inner dialogue: "This is me and mine."
• fear dominates
• requires energy
• needs approval
• interprets the "I" within the observer as different from the "I" in the observed
• thinks in cause and effect modalities
• algorythmic
• continuous
• conscious
• active when senses are active because sensory experience is local
• expresses itself through the voluntary nervous system and makes individual choices

Nonlocal mind
• spirit
• soul
• universal consciousness
• pure consciousness
• synchronistic
• operates outside spacetime causality
• timeless and infinite
• intuitive, creative
• unconditioned, infinitely corelated, infinitely creative
• unifies
• inner dialogue: "All this is me and mine."
• love dominates
• operates without energy
• immune to criticism and flattery
• knows it is the same "I" in the observer and the observed
• sees an acausal interconnectedness or interdependent co-arising
• nonalgorhythmic
• discontinuous
• supraconscious
• always active, but more available to itself when senses are in abeyance or withdrawn, as in sleep, dreams, meditation, drowsiness, trance, or prayer
• expresses itself through the autonomic and endocrine systems, and most importantly, through the synchronization of these systems and also through the synchronization of the particular and the universal, the microcosm and the macrocosm.

I bolded that statement because it's counterproductive to meditate by holding on to qualities of the local mind - unless you're awake and doing something. When you close your eyes to meditate, completely abandon any sense of cause and effect, feedback, approval, time, separation, energy, and even the notion that you're making an individual choice. If it doesn't feel completely natural, you're letting your sense of self-importance get in the way.

Edit: Astral Projection is not a step-by-step process, it's a creative process of intuition and whimsy. No wonder you're so bad at it, Cube Ahh.. pie in the sky tastes so good.

[Stillwater]

Manuel's statement-

quote:It is as easy as you think it is.

Cube's statement-

quote:All you folks saying it's so simple (manuel in particular), if you understand it so well then it should be easy for you to write down the steps you use to have a conscious projection whenever you want.

Hmm...

I don't know, but it seems to me that Manuel is merely saying that a task is only as difficult to achieve as one might assign it to be through one's own hierarchal systems.

It seems to me that we should not be so quick to find fault without thinking of alternative meanings.

Perhaps I am wrong.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[mactombs]

Reading these posts, it's difficult to completely understand what people mean, especially phong.

Easy as you think it is? Well, if my intuition serves me, than this statement is not true. To say such would mean that those who fail to develop in OOB experiences as quickly as others are psychologically retarded, obstinate, etc. NEW probably wouldn't mean anything, either. After all, energy wouldn't affect your ability to project, just your believing would. Sprinkle on some fairy dust and think happy thoughts.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit negative, but it feels that telling someone that having an OBE is as easy as they think it is causes more problems then it solves, and it isn't completely honest. Perhaps I misunderstand.

[Nay]

quote:Originally posted by cube

Wow, I didn't expect this to turn into such a pompous pie in the sky kind of thread.

All you folks saying it's so simple (manuel in particular), if you understand it so well then it should be easy for you to write down the steps you use to have a conscious projection whenever you want.

So let's have those lists! [8D]

It's true though..it is as easy as you think it will be. [] But I did start meditating 15..wait..16yrs ago. [^]

And writing down my techniques for others, well...it might give some ideas, but everyone is different, there is not one right way to go about it.  For instance, the rope has never worked for me..ever.  But it works wonders for others...go figure huh..[]

The forums have many, many, many..and oh..did I say MANY techniques! Read those, you might even come across Manuel explaining his tech or me as well.  No sense in explaining it over, and over..lol


Nay

[Manix]

There's gotta be either something wrong with me or this "easy as you think it is" theory, cuase its not nearly as easy as I think should be, or else I wouldn't be representing the bottom rung of the latter.

<A conversation with Self>
<Me: Look! I think I see the next rung!>
<Self: Really? Where?>
<Me: It's RIGHT there you idiot. RIGHT THERE.>
<Self: No it isn't.>
<Me: Yes it IS. Are you blind?>
<Self: No.>
<Me: Then what's the problem?>
<Self: Your in my way.[xx(]>

[Nay]

Hehehehehehe...[]

That was funny Manix!  oh..wait, I'm sorry if you didn't mean for it to be funny..[]

It kinda reminded me of some conversations I've had with myself while meditating [^]

Practice makes perfect comes to mind.

Nay

[Phong]

I know what I'm talking about, really.

I just don't know how to talk about it.

[BlackBox]

22:33:55 is your post time Phong.

For master-number junkies like myself, I have a question: "Are you jesus?"

j/k

[mactombs]

Well, Phong, I suspect if you claimed enlightenment and I demanded a description, I'd be the stupid one.

What I am interested in, however, is this "easy as you think it is". This is an oversimplification which I feel cheats those who do have a hard time.

I'd imagine that after you've been successful, it will have seemed as easy and natural as anything can be (if everyone project while they're asleep, this would seem especially true). However, getting to the point where something becomes as easy as you want it to be isn't easy. For some people it's very difficult.

Possibilities:

Maybe if it's very difficult for you to project, it's not bad. It's good. If someone put a group of people together and gave them tasks to increase their abilities, and you were put in the group that had to climb the highest and most difficult obstacle, and everyone else only had something that looked like a molehill in comparison, you'd probably feel pretty proud that your abilities need something that massive to be properly tested. It's difficult for you because you have that much latent skill and learning that will come as a result of your achievement.

Maybe it's only as easy as your Higher self wants it to be.

Maybe it's just that you're not prone to these kinds of brain-manufactured hallucinations as other people are.

Maybe you really are retarded spiritually.

Maybe projection has everything to do with physical existence, and trials and facets of your physical life. Maybe you spend a lot of energy developing in other ways, or coping with hardships.

My guess is, though, that you can intuit which of the above is closest to the truth. Not all of them can be or are.

[BlackBox]

Phong,

Your post was highly useful. You've made me realize that when I'm in trance-state, I put too much local-mind intent (conscious control) in the process and therefore I'm naturally grounding myself away from doing precisely the opposite!

It was the same when I was learning to image-stream. It's so simple yet so oblivious to someone trying to learn to AP.

Thank you very much.

Can I ask for some rope-like methods that you use? Or perhaps what you used originally as your primary ways to get-out -- AP?

Nay's suggestion about walking around the room, using the senses, helped. A diving in the water one, even though it sounded promising, didn't seem to work for me (not my personal flavour I guess, or maybe I was consciously too grounded at the time).

Anyways, any other techniques that you (phong) can provide would be most appreciated.

Namaste.

[Manix]

quote:Originally posted by Nay

Hehehehehehe...[]

That was funny Manix!  oh..wait, I'm sorry if you didn't mean for it to be funny..[]

It kinda reminded me of some conversations I've had with myself while meditating [^]

Practice makes perfect comes to mind.

Nay

Yeah, that was my attempt at humour. I find it best to make light of ones own failures, otherwise, your back starts break from the load.

[BlackBox]

Also I wanted to note something I experience:

When I'm getting my body into the deep-alpha state, of nearing trance. It usually takes a certain thought that triggers the usual 'wave' of tinglings through my body. Like the chill you get when something you read resonate from your soul, or when you see the super-hero arrive to save the day....that feeling, the feeling I actually am getting right now when typing this.

When that happens, it usually sparks my relaxed state to the trance state of my body vibrating. Very awesome indeed. At this state, I love focusing on tingles on my forehead, a little bit on the third eye, and brushing techniques from the NEW system.

Just wanted to share that...

[Manix]

Black Box just brought a question to mind. What do the so called vibrations actually feel like? When ever I try to do energy work, all I get is this prickly sensation that compares only to that horrible sensation you get when your foot has fallen asleep.

[Nay]

Hey Manix. []  Still chuckling over the chat with yourself. Actually your chat is more true then you think []

I do not get the vibrations everytime, but when I do it feels more like ummmmm..lets see, have you ever accidentally gotten shocked by a outlet or a wire that wasn't grounded?  It's like that. [^] Sometimes it is stronger at times but pretty much how it feels TO ME..[]

Hope that helps.

Nay

[BlackBox]

Manix, the prickling sensation is your body de-sensitizing.

When your in the deepest state you think you can possibly get into, try imagining that you were suddenly given the powers of the Universe or something really exciting that usually makes you shiver. That 'can' trigger the vibrations everytime if focused and concentrated on.

[cube]

Hi Phong,

quote:
Astral Projection is not a step-by-step process, it's a creative process of intuition and whimsy. No wonder you're so bad at it, Cube Ahh.. pie in the sky tastes so good.

Before people had much understanding of hypnotism it was viewed the same way, full of vague mystery and handwaving. When people started to drop the BS factor and study it seriously it became a learnable skill that anyone could do.

The act of projecting *is* something that can be learned and formalized. It sounds to me like Spectral Dragon is one of the most skilled projectors on this site and he can project consciously whenever he wants to, and he's writing instructions on how to do it.

I have to admit I have a lot more respect for a natural projector who studies things in detail so s/he can help those who stuggle with it than a natural projector such as yourself who leaves it all in la-la land and arrogantly assumes that everyone else has the same intrinsic ability.

[Manix]

OK.
Maybe THAT'S where I've went wrong. I've been expecting an OBE to be some sort of exceptional thrilling and pleasant experience, or an instantaneous occurrence as was the case with my prior success. I was also pretty much asleep then anyway, I just happened to catch my self before going under.

So, in other words, if I can't learn how to catch myself on the verge of sleep (a shot in the dark), I simply need to get used to or ignore the feeling of having glass jabbed through my skin whenever I'm 'desensitizing' so that I can initiate the vibrations? It's sounding like that's what I need to do. For all I know the vibrations may occur naturally if I can get past the unpleasant apprehension that I'm having a stroke.

Feel free to straighten me out if I'm getting this wrong...I'd love to know I'm simply going about this the wrong way.

Just thinking about his is making my hands go numb AGH!