Proof of nothing?...

[jilola]

And the point for having such an ability for nothing would be?
There is no life after death.
Consider this:
The conventional perception of death means the cessation of the existence of your body. It stops functioning. Kaput.
Now, your body can die in bits. If your arm gets chopped off, are you paritally dead? Which part of "you" is gone? Exactly? Or do you still think and feel what you did before?
When you become paralyzed from neck down, which part of "you" is forever gone?
When you become brain dead and your body still lives, which part of you still lives as contrasted with the above?
Or is it possible that your body has nothing to do with "you" and that when your body gets buried, you don't?

2cents  & L&L
jouni

[Sentential]

I think that death is too strong. My view is that we are more like plants in that reguard. We shed our leaves in the winter (aka death) and reblossem in the spring (reincarnation)

As physics sez. "Energy can neither be created or destroyed. It can only change forms"

[kiauma]

I think I understand where LeCosmic is coming from.  It's the old existential solipsist debate, with a psychic twist.

Let's say that the akasha is, hypothetically, the universes quantum subfield, and psychic powers are simply our awareness of this quantum subfield, of which we and everything else is a part.

How does that change things?

Well, thinking about it, it (hypothetically) could change things a lot.  For example, OBE would be merely the telepathic projection of our point of consciousness (awareness), not really the projection of any kind of spiritual component at all.  Also, because the quantum subfield is beyond time and space, when we feel we are talking to the spirits of the departed we might not be doing that at all, but instead are again telepathically contacting simply the echo of their earthly existance, aided by our subjective interpretation of the raw quantum subfield information.  So, when we die, we actually do cease to exist, though the echo of our (short) existance continues to echo through the quantum subfield, which reaches the length and breadth of time and space.

Confusing, ey?  

Yeah, I think the straightforward answers work a lot better too.

[Meedan]

quote:What is the whole OBE ability is just an extra skill that our bodies have, and in no way proves anything about God or ghosts or any of that stuff.

Hahahaha. Seperating your mind from your body is just 'an extra skill' that the brain can do?

The more logical conclusion is that the mind does not originate from the brain at all. That is pretty much the only thing that OBEs themselves prove.

[seth817]

I don't think that astral projection in itself is proof of life after death. But don't people who astral project come into contact with the spirits of dead people? Also based on what I have read the soul is something that exists beyond the confinds of one physical body or personality. I have read that we are part of an oversoul and that oversoul can be incarnated in more than one body at the same time. So in that case life after death is a mute point because we already exist outside of our physical bodys.

[The AlphaOmega]

There are simply two options.  

1.  If you believe in life after death then there is no reason to try to discover all the impossible answers in this life time.  Enjoy it while you're here, cause no matter what you believe you won't be here forever.  

2.  You don't believe in life after death, so still, enjoy life while you're here.  

Despite all the theories about God and existence since the beginning of man, don't you think that if there is something more we are meant to understand in this life, that we would understand it?  If it's our purpose, then where are these answers?  We didn't come here, born with no recollection of anything and having to learn everything, to discover all the answers of the universe and dimensions beyond in the short time we live.  Accept it, we won't know the truth untill we die.  So live!

[Meedan]

quote:

Despite all the theories about God and existence since the beginning of man, don't you think that if there is something more we are meant to understand in this life, that we would understand it?  If it's our purpose, then where are these answers?  We didn't come here, born with no recollection of anything and having to learn everything, to discover all the answers of the universe and dimensions beyond in the short time we live.  Accept it, we won't know the truth untill we die.  So live!

Actually alpha, If I was 'God', I would want people to forget everything at the start of a life to try to demonstrate their understanding, rather than their knowledge. It's the best way to learn, don't try and remember what you did wrong last time, try to understand the whole thing. Imagine if we learnt arithmetic by memorising that 2+3 is not 4, 1+6 is not 10, 2+7=9, instead of understanding how numbers work. One more example, []. I wouldn't want someone to remember how to act in a certain situation, I want their actions to 'come from the heart' so to speak.

[thelou]

WOW this has gotten really deep.  Thank you all for the incredible posts.

First off is not your parapsychology training based on science or the opinions of others?  I would recommend not giving in 100% to what you hear, but listening to it and deciding for your self how it fits with your beliefs.

quote: Argue for your limitations...and sure enough...their yours " ...... R.Bach

It is funny to me that you would ask such a thing and have a signature like that.  Richard Back is a brilliant man.  Think on your own question, and what you have learned from him.

Seth817 wrote

quote:I don't think that astral projection in itself is proof of life after death. But don't people who astral project come into contact with the spirits of dead people? Also based on what I have read the soul is something that exists beyond the confinds of one physical body or personality. I have read that we are part of an oversoul and that oversoul can be incarnated in more than one body at the same time. So in that case life after death is a mute point because we already exist outside of our physical bodys.

Astral Projection in itself is not proof of life after death.  It is what people learn while they are mastering it that gives them the proof that there is life after death.  The Soul is definitely something that exists beyond the confines of the physical body.

Our "Oversoul" is actually that part of us that can never enter into the physical realm.  It is who we really are.  The all knowing part of us that stays in the spiritual while we enter into the physical.  It is our true "spirit being".  And it routinely incarnates into multiple "physical beings" at the same time.  For the true purpose of life is to "experience".  The "Oversoul" has the ability to incarnate into as many physical lives as it desires to experience "life" in as many different aspects at any given "time" as it wants.  (I put the word time into quotations for a reason.  In truth there is no such thing as time, or space for that matter.  It is all an illusionary manifestation of the "physical" Universe).  And yes "life after death is a mute point" because in truth there is no such thing as death.  Just a beginning or ending of one physical experience to go into another.  For the expansion of our "Oversoul" and the expansion of The One.

I also like what The AlphaOmega has to say.  It is VERY deep and actually answers dozens of questions on dozens of different levels of thinking.  Read it and ponder, then read it and ponder again.

After that, I would highly recommend reading Joachim Wolf's book "Understanding the Grand Design".  It is incredibly advanced.  In this topic.  Go to "all forums" then under general metaphysics is "quantum metaphysics".  You will find and incredible amount of information.  Including book reviews.  

NOTE: A generalized definition; Quantum representing science, and Metaphysics representing spiritual.   Science is discovering and PROVING that science and spiritualism are not separate, but two different view points of the same thing.

Thelou

[kiauma]

There are two kinds of people.  Those who believe there are only two options, and those who don't.  []

I would argue there are as many answers as there are souls - and I think even the shallowest observations of those around us would make this plain.   To reduce the deepest questions of existance and spirituality to two options is... a bit... short, IMO.

But then again, I'm probably just overcomplicating things.

Yes, clearing the mind of preconceptions is a powerful meditation, but it only prepares the way for what is real.  To say one cannot know is resignation, for one CAN know.  Anything is possible, even certainty.  The trap, of course, is then you are full of preconceptions.

The real answer for me, my third option, is commitment to the Now, to the power and spontaneity of the Moment, which I suppose is really the same single choice as AlphaOmega - to live!  

[Stillwater]

Yes, I shall say that I am in accord with that ideal as well. It is for us to live in the moment before it is for us to rack our poor minds with the weight of the past, or to ponder the ultimate structures of the universe and try to deciphor the future before it even draws near. I am not saying that it is not that one should not plan ahead, as to neglect to fill one's tank before embarking on a cross country trip is a conspicous folly (unless you live in Chile, or have a tank full of love []); rather, if you truly wish to discover truth, you will find it most accesibly and readily withn your own heart.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[kiauma]

Rock on!  [8D]

[LeCosmic]

Thanks for the great responses folks. Lots of huge preconceptions and assumptions which i find to be incredibly arrogant, but hey i guess i'm the only one who realises how little i know even though i've read things in books that tell me otherwise.

I still think OBE's are not conclusive proof of any kind of afterlife. But yeah, live in the moment and if death is the end of consciousness, then no regrets.

Peace and love all.

[thelou]

I guess I will have to agree, that OBE's are not conclusive proof of life after death.  In fact I do not remember reading any where that they are.  What I do remember is that people that have OBE'ed allot claim to have a feeling, or a belief that there is life after death.

I do not think science has come up with a way yet to connect some kind of machine to a persons feelings and use them as scientific proof.

But most everything that we accept as proof today, started out as a belief before the proof came.

I have not met a dead person yet in any of my OBE's.  But I have seen ghosts of dead people in my waking life.

[LeCosmic]

So like fot the longest time i've been taking the OBE's that i've had as proof of life after death. But just recently, thanks to some parapsychology training, i've begun to think differently.

What is the whole OBE ability is just an extra skill that our bodies have, and in no way proves anything about God or ghosts or any of that stuff.

Scary biscuits...any thought people?