attempt to explain why some can obe, others cannot

[jilola]

I think that is a fairly good explanations and certainly it is true that if you start out by disbelieving your chances and ability even everyday things can stump you.

The good news is that the theory works the other way as well. String belief and an optimistic mindset will assist greatly in achieving you goals, including OBE.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[mactombs]

I've heard stories of skeptical people experiencing OBEs anyway. Also, if I believe that what I believe won't stand in my way, what then?

Positive thinking is a closer fit, I think. Belief doesn't change reality, but it is true that how you see yourself changes who you are.

[surgeline44]

" I've heard stories of skeptical people experiencing OBEs anyway. Also, if I believe that what I believe won't stand in my way, what then?
Positive thinking is a closer fit, I think. Belief doesn't change reality, but it is true that how you see yourself changes who you are."

beliefs exist at a subconscious level - you may be unaware of many. one can consciously believe he is good-looking - superior complex - but in "actuality" they are ugly - via others' viewpoints. however the point is moot since it is non-existent. if i live in india and have a scar on my face, i am considered a trooper with high-regards. in the us, rob ain't gonna getting laid.

the skeptical folks who achieve such had no idea how open-minded they really were in the first place.

positive thinking is a waste of time, and waste of energy. you can't 'will' yourself into anything. think positive thoughts by all means - but don't dilute yourself by believing willing can change beliefs; if anything it helps strengthen them.

you cannot-not believe what you in fact believe. it would turn your whole world upside down.

belief is reality. besides, reality is only one's perception of reality.

thanks for the reply. we all think differently  - i just hope to add my knowledge and insight as others do. i think i'm going to like it here.

cheers,

rob

[Manix]

"you cannot-not believe what you in fact believe. it would turn your whole world upside down."

I like that sentence, don't ask me why.

Reminds me of a quote I read the other day.

Reality is that which, when you stop beleiving in it, doesn't go away.

[Nay]

quote:positive thinking is a waste of time, and waste of energy. you can't 'will' yourself into anything. think positive thoughts by all means - but don't dilute yourself by believing willing can change beliefs; if anything it helps strengthen them.

Can you explain this to me?  I don't get it..  "but don't dilute yourself by believing willing can change beliefs; if anything it helps strengthen them." That seems like a contradiction??  Dumb it down, so I can understand.[^]

"positive thinking is a waste of time, and waste of energy."

I soooo disagree and cannot for the life of me, figure out why people think a positive outlook is a waste...  The only thing I can figure is they cannot think positive themselves, and are unwilling to think it possible. [^]

Smiles~ Nay

[surgeline44]

i'm actually a web designer, 21 years of age - for the folk whom are curious. in my 4th post i included html - and it's evidently not permitted. either the webmasters werent mindful or didnt know how to incorporate such, it's certainly one of them. i think i can cope with it.

regardless...

anyway:

"but don't dilute yourself by believing willing can change beliefs; if anything it helps strengthen them."

what i mean is you cannot will yourself into changing your beliefs. there is no contradiction. you have to 'do it' rather than 'want to do it badly.' the more you concentrate on any given isue, the more it will become a part of your world; which is what i mean in a nutshell.

"positive thinking is a waste of time, and waste of energy. I soooo disagree and cannot for the life of me, figure out why people think a positive outlook is a waste... The only thing I can figure is they cannot think positive themselves, and are unwilling to think it possible."

it is not a waste, but it can become such depeneding how you utilize it. go right ahead with it. its cool. just don't confuse it for what it really truly iis.


cheers,

rob

[galacticsurfer]

Surgeline,

no link on quick and easy belief reprogramming, sorry.

I noticed that this belief structure changing is pretty glacial in speed personally and comes in bits and pieces until everything falls together and I get a new paradigm in my heads which allows new radical ideas like  OBEs to be accepted in terms of this radical new paradigm. this has a lot to do with the societal changes around us which depend on where the stars are so to speak.

The astrological changes are a sort of program to wring us out through lots of changes so it is actually impossible to always stay in the same thought paradigm anyway. In the 90s Uranus and Neptune went through aquarius together. They stand for social changes on the whole planet and aquarius for communication. We see that now we are talking through a new medium which went mass market in the 90s , the internet and that mobile phones became a mass market thing then too.

Belief changing is really not up to us, it's cultural. I mean who could have thought we would have ben talking about OBEs over internet seriously say ten/fifteen years ago? Maybe some people pick up on the moods of the times quicker than others or even cause them(like Rob Bruce?). Some people might ignore such changes and remain stuck in the past. If OBEs are real then more people will do it and more people will believee and then it will be in all the newspapers and cheap talk shows and slowly you will believe it even if you are the worst skeptic for example. If it is not real or simple for most people then it will stay subculture or disappear.

[clandestino]

Try reading Rick Stack's "OBE in 30 days"... I think that's the title. His theory is that belief is the main thing holding most people back. He also provides a lot of practical exercises that deal with changing your belief system, to accomodate the possibility of OBE.

I believe that a person's ability to OBE is a function of their willingness to believe.

Mactombs said "Belief doesn't change reality", I agree.... but belief can change our perception of reality. Belief can also enable us to acheive.

A classic example is golf. If you don't believe that you can hit the ball, or make a 20foot putt, you won't be able to !

On the surface, its easy to say "I believe I can have an OBE". But deep down, does your subconcious agree ? if your mindset is rationalistic and not open to change, then I reckon OBEs are harder to acheive.

There is also the theory that increasing energy levels, or exercising the energy body, leads to an OBE. (Robert Bruce, Castaneda). These could be voluntary or involuntary and would explain mactomb's statement :
 

quote:I've heard stories of skeptical people experiencing OBEs anyway.

[jilola]

Surgeline:

quote:webmasters werent mindful or didnt know how to incorporate such, it's certainly one of them. i think i can cope with it.

The forum software uses special tags to prevent people from introducing harmful html code. The reasons why are better asked from the Snitz Development team.

Use the buttons at the top of the post editor to find out what's what.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Kazbadan]

Belief is very important. In many situations on my life i coould proof to myself that the more i believe in something the bigger are the probabilities to happen that thing.

Of course that this will not work on things far away from your efforts: i bepieve in ufos but i never saw anyone.

But you must be aware with belief thought, because you can have deceptions. For example, you believe that you are gonna be lucky with the girl that you like but in the end you can be sad because you didnt get anything with her.

So, the best way to act it´s a little like the samurais: go to the war with the idea that you are the best warrior (in pratice it´s a little bit different from this) but be prepared to die.

The same for obes: believe that you are gonna do it but be prepared because it can take some time before you didnt (notice i said: be prepared, not: think on the possibilitie of fail).

How can you increase your beliefs? Study more stuff related to obes. Analyse the inumerous cases all over the world of people that faced obes in an involuntary manner.

Now i must go, talk latter on this.

[Reemy]

quote:i'm actually a web designer, 21 years of age - for the folk whom are curious. in my 4th post i included html - and it's evidently not permitted. either the webmasters werent mindful or didnt know how to incorporate such, it's certainly one of them.

I'm also a web designer, and have been for 10 years.  I'm surprised that you're not familiar with forum code.  Many forums utilize UBB, or similar code, for posting.  It's been used for a long time.  While UBB is not necessary, and there are forums that don't use it, it's a much smarter move for a webmaster of a large and active site to employ forum software that uses it--it's secure and doesn't allow for user over-ride of site code.

quote:but don't dilute yourself by believing willing can change beliefs; if anything it helps strengthen them.

How would one be deluding themselves by believing this?  You could argue that positive attitudes don't change facts or reality, but to say that it doesn't change beliefs?!  Beliefs are mutable and evolving and while positive thinking may not, for some, in and of itself change a belief, it can leave one open to the idea of a new possibility or an experience, and then that experience can lead to a change of belief.  That's the element of what attitude adjustment changes.

This doesn't just apply to things like OBE, it applies to everything.  Many, many years ago I was a troubleshooter on a help desk.  The reason a lot of my coworkers didn't work out in that position was that they gave up to easily if the solution didn't come to them on the first, second, or third try.  I excelled at that job because I thought positively--there was a solution and it was only a matter of time until I found it. Or the way my husband often gives up on looking for things he "can't find."  I always find the item because I know it's here somewhere and I "can find" it if I keep looking.  It's just positive, can-do thinking.

You can see this in action in any physical therapy clinic.  Patients who are eager to get back on their feet and keep a positive attitude make progress.  Patients who are negative and refuse to believe they can get better rarely see as much success.  In the most severe cases this happens.  I'm not saying a spinal-cord injury can be over come by will, but even in those cases, while the ability to walk may be forever impossible, there can be improvements of sensation and independence from ventilators that doctors told them would never happen.

Positive attitude changes our mind-set, which in turn affects our willingness to continue to strive for something elusive, which in turn can lead to experiences that definitely change belief.

I'm not saying it's necessary to truly believe in something like OBE for it to be able to happen.  I do think it's important not to comletely disbelieve if you're trying make it happen.  You can at least stay neutral to be open to the experience.  Self-defeatist attitudes can defeat.


Namaste,
Reemy

[surgeline44]

taking a simplistic stance.

i read a book recently, "psycho-cybernetics. - by maxwell maltz.
he quoted prescott lecky, the founder of the "self-image":
lecky conceived of the personality as a "system of ideas" all of which must seem to be consistent with eachother. ideas which are inconsistent with the system are rejected, "not believed" and not acted upon. ideas which seem to be consistent with the system are accepted. at the very center of this system of ideas-the keystone- the base upon which all else is built, is the individuals "ego ideal" his "self-image"or his conception of himself.

he has proved if one does not not believe something, one cannot accomplish it. it is litterly impossible. i.e. it is not consistent with the system - and it must be.

unfortunately for many here, i believe it would be inconsistent for them to have an obe - deep rooted in the subconscious is the belief  "this will never happen."

so, until that is weeded out, yours attempts will be unsuccessful.

im strapped for time, but can anyone offer a link how to change beliefs? perhaps when i return ill do my best to explain.

cheers,

-Rob