Conjoined effort to read a card OBE

[Veccolo]

Instead of playing cards, why don't use a drawing. Let someone else draw something (doesn't matter what) and try to see what it is while having an OBE.

The problem with the playing card is, in my eyes, that you know (assuming you have seen them once, at least) the cards, you know what is drawn/written on these cards. This could have an influence on the result imho.

[manuel]

i would personaly recomend very large photos of scenes of nature, such as waterfalls, flowers, birds etc you can get them from newsagents and what not.

[BOATS]

That could work fine.  I have a friend who I will ask to draw something.  I know what I would really think would be ideal is to be put to sleep during Anastesia and have a doctor in confidence place a image on a shelf.  That would throw someone into the RTZ as fast as a NDE.  I do not know why parashyciology studies are not doing this. I would volenteer.I have been put to sleep twice as a child and looking back to the second time I had a short RTZ OBE but did not know about OBE then and just considered it a strange dream.  I do not know weither anyone else has had this happen but I suspect so.

[Stillwater]

This very idea of objective proof is one that has always interested me...

In my opinion, the cards would work just fine- you would simply select several cards from a deck without the aid of sight, and then place them in the target region without taking any intermediate peaks; if done correctly, there should be no way of knowing what cards you selected, and if you did have some intimation, you would obviously be aware of it yourself; on the other hand, a detailed-enough drawing might do splendidly enough as well, and I don't see any harm in doing it through that method either.

Please keep us posted- I am eager to hear of any results you might have!

Thank you,
Stillwater

[flake]

Actually I have been trying to do that card trick for a while now. I have had about 10-20 OBEs where I have only checked out cards, and in all of them I have failed to get it right. But I am not giving up yet, even though I´m not a RTZ kind of guy

[Kazbadan]

Yes! That´s the idea! I am happy to see people in this forum starting to get interested in this proof question.

I am sad about what flake said: did you failed on the reading of the cards ( i mean, the card is, f.ex. a 3 of spades but you read a 5 of hearts)? That´s bad news for obers and for me! I really would like to proof that obes are real. If don´t, well...i dont know...

[Stillwater]

I don't believe that most here would not like to read of some objective "proof", but rather that they have either conceded that proof is not particularly vital to their faith in what they believe, or from lack of seemingly adequete methods for proving that OBEs can be an objective and non-neuraly-genereated experience, they have lost interest in their pursuit to back our beautiful system with a somewhat systematic and un-influencible experiement.

It baffles me that the card method is so widely accepted and known, yet so few have gained any substantial proof through its use.

I am interested in any who would attempt to validate their claims of non-subjective RTZ projections via this or any other fairly scientific method.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[Kazbadan]

quote:Originally posted by Stillwater


It baffles me that the card method is so widely accepted and known, yet so few have gained any substantial proof through its use.

I am interested in any who would attempt to validate their claims of non-subjective RTZ projections via this or any other fairly scientific method.

Thank you,
Stillwater

I make your words my words too! Why is that we never see almost anyone (good exceptions like Boats and Flake, among others, still exist) trying anything related with that tests. It is very sad! And when someone makes the attempts (Flakes) it fails (not blaming you, just saying that obes are showing as being illusions of the brain)!

And if you ask a good projector why does he not make any test or proof, he will argue that for spiritual reasons he will not need any proof. They claim to have reached a higher evel in wich proof it´s an egoistic thing (i am thinking in a Brasilian forum...not this one).

I only see bad news for obers! If this was a soccer game (obes real vs obes illusion) it would be 0-2 in this moment, with a victory for the illusion (i mean: obes are fake, just lucid dreams).

[BOATS]

I am not going to base my hopes on life after death on the OBE.  I would like the proof however.

[flake]

to Kazbadan:

You should do some reading about OBEing. OBEs can be either Illusions in the brain or projections in the realtime-zone. But often most OBEs can have the qualities of both. My point is that there is no fine line between the real-time zone and astral while OBEing, it all sort of just melts together.
    And for the record, I´m not doing the card test to prove that a realtime-zone exists, I´m doing it because I just wanna see how it´s like. I have already heard countless proof stories about the realtime-zone both by OBE authors and by some OBE interested friends of mine.
    What I have noticed is that some people just seem to have more realtime projections and some seem to have it more astral, regardless of anything. And I for one, am not a realtime dude, that's why I´m practicing on it now.

[Stillwater]

I understand...

We all have our own motivations, but, regardless of intention, it would be a nice thing if an honest member of the forums might post any actual results with an experience afirmative of the card trick's validitiy, or even of their foray into an attempt.

It is that your words intrigue me, as I am fond of saying- might you recount one of these stories, please?

Thank you,
Stillwater

[BOATS]

There is a fellow willing to pay one million dollors for anyone who can prove any type paranormal abilities.  I really need to start attempting the card test this week.  
www.randi.org

[stephen~]

I tried the card trick once this year. Here's what happened to me and my interpretation.

First, I don't see the point of making this test harder than it needs to be. Generally real-time projections break down or end pretty quickly, or so I have always found, so I have this belief that speed in getting to the card is all important. Therefore, instead of hiding it up somewhere, I just closed my eyes, took a card from the pack, and then laid it against the arm of the couch. The reason for this was, I thought that even with a partial 'sit up' type projection I'd still be able to see the card immediately (the card was in the area my feet were going to be when I lay back on the couch).

When the vibes hit, I sat up. Although it was afternoon my vision was terrible, all I could see was a kind of dark brown mist. I tried to clear my vision, but it wasn't happening. However, I knew vaguelly where I was, so I just tried staring hard in the direction I thought the card was in. Very slowly, the large window area appeared, the light being a little lighter there than the overall dark brown I could see. Then I saw very vaguelly the arm of the couch, and in the middle of it, leaning back against the arm I saw a pale glow of a rectangular object. I decided to move as close as possible, but it was so hard to see, but when I got a little closer I could clearly see it was not  face card. I can't honestly remember what card it was, but I guessed something like 5 of hearts and it was the 3 of spades, or something like that. All I was sure of in the light was that there was no picture, but definite 'spots'.

On the face of it someone looking for proof might be highly disapointed with that. But real-time projections are never 100% accurate. I also tend to take the view shared with remote viewers that you can only ever really get an overview, that once you start examining anything too closely your subconscious starts influencing what you see, putting its own interpretation on it.

For me the proof is not in the fine print, as it were, but in the overall picture. I have had too many daytime/evening projections where the local conditions are exactly right, in fact I have never had one (with clear vision) when things weren't right. Pay close attention to light, weather, atmosphere and most likely you will find they are spot on. I notice this always, like the hot summer afternoon I closed the curtains and fell asleep in the chair. In the projection that followed I saw the room exactly how it looked. In the evenings, when the lights are on I have seen the lamplight in the projection exactly as it is, same shadows, same quality of light. If projections are illusions or dreams, then they are bloody good at mimicing the exact conditions. Just once I am sure you'd get a few orange elephants where your TV should be, or there would be rain or stars when it was neither raining nor night.

I think some would disagree with that and say they do get those contradictions, but then perhaps they can't tell real real-time projections from astral projections, it can be very hard.

My belief is the card method is doomed to failure in most cases, requiring a good amount of mental control that most of us just don't have. And proof if it needs to be looked for, should be looked for in the overall scene rather than in any one part of it.

[Meedan]

As I've said before, what you guys refer to as RTZ OBE, I refer to just as an OBE. Real OBEs (or RTZ OBEs) take a phenomenal amount of concentration to maintain the correct perception, otherwise it will fade into something similar to a dream. OBEs are very difficult and at our level of mental/spiritual evolution, I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is only people like tibetan monks and a few others that can really perceive the physical universe consistently.

Due to this difficulty, perhaps some of you requiring more proof should also study Near Death Experiences, these OBEs always effortlessly perceive the physical universe as it is.

I did a search on this forum for card tests or other verification episodes, here are some that I found:

Beavis:

"I've had many experiences that could be called RTZ projection, but most of them are vague. At least 6 months ago, I did 3 experiments successfully (similar to the card test), which prove that I was really in RTZ. Since then, I have not been concerned with proving it is real. I forgot, without trying to prove anything, me and Tayesin did meet in RTZ in my apartment, and we verified our experiences were the same the next day."

"Twice I read 4 digit random numbers on my computer screen in an OBE."





Links Shadow

"I have tried the viewing card exercise and have had it work. Althought I have only done it one time so I don't know if I could repeat it but I am sure that I could. If you are just curious if it is possible then yes it is"






wonderboy

"I have done it. it was a double blind experiment my roommate shuffled the card and didn't look at it but put it up on the shelf. I OBE'd (after several months of trying to see the card) and saw it. I called both my roommates in to verify before I ever looked at it. Interestingly enough when a couple of us first got into AP the majority of people wanted proof. But even after the card viewing they just wanted more proof. All I can say is that I've been a lucid dreamer for years, and when you are out of body, you know it."







gerble king

"For instance, when I first started having OBEs I decided to see if what I was experiencing was real or a dream. So I decided that the next time I had an OBE I would go outside with the sole purpose of finding something objective that I could then go and observe awake. When the next OBE occurred I went straight outside repeating the purpose (find something objective) to myself over and over. Very soon I saw two people walking up the street across from my house, one in white and the other in black, I then head straight back to my body and told myself to wake up and run outside to check my observation. When I woke, up I ran outside and saw the people. This convinced me that it was real."







Donna

"I had gone out of body using the phasing method to visit my daughters' house she had just bought. She had not told me anything about it, all I knew was that it was in NE Louisiana.
I went, explored, and then called her with a description the next day. This included the fact that no one was home, how the furniture was arranged, and finding a tall concrete post in the front yard, and some broken windows in front. She confirmed all of this the next day.

One of the children in our neghborhood had gotten hit by a car. I was told the fathers' name and I had known them for years. They have three young boys, about ten months apart in ages, and I was not told which one it was,and could not find out. All I knew was that the child was in the emergency room. This time I simply sent my conciousness out, as in remote viewing, being both concious "here" and "in the emergency room" at the same time. The boy was lying on one of their beds, more afraid that hurt, though I did get the knowledge that his left hip was hurting. His mother and grandmother were in the ER exam room with him.Everyone was quiet, but I did gain the knowledge,somehow (?), that his name was Stephen (this inrormation Just "came to me" as well as his state of condition physically, as I watched this scene. This turned out to be all true, as I asked my son to find out for me, and I talked to the father several days later. The child was fine later, as healing was sent."





amcturbo

"I attempt to visit a friend's house 3-1/2 blocks away, when projecting in the RTZ ... I've never made it there ... yet!

What I have discovered, is the while heading across the neighbor's back yard, one morning at 5:30am, I noticed the flicker of a TV screen thru her backroom window. During the OBE, I thought this to be odd and that it was an OBE/Dream fluctuation ... that it WASN'T TRUE ... because (1) This was here bedroom ... (2) It was 5:30am and she doesn't seem to get up early as she is a night owl ... and (3) I've never seen a TV screen flicker from that window since she moved in ... and (4) that the previous owner used to have a TV flicker through that window ... so I thought I was CREATING the experience of seeing a TV screen flicker.

Long-story-short, I have since confirmed, by visiting her house ... that the rear room is a *Den* or *Family Room* ... not a bedroom ... and that it has a TV in it. I've also been able to confirm, multiple times, that she watches TV at 5:00am-6:00am in the morning, while I am outside exercising at this time of the morning. Lastly, from my wife talking with her, I've discovered that she is somewhat of an insomniac, having sleeping problems, which is probably why she is up watch TV then."




Patty

"It was convincing enough that I asked my husband to put a note on a high shelf. I wanted to try to read it while out of body. During my second projection, which was every bit as convincing as the first, I found myself standing under the high shelf. It was so eerie (sp?). I was standing there, everything looked completely normal in the bedroom, but eerily grey and hummily quiet. Like there was a buzz that you couldn't hear, only feel, and there was no other noise. Very otherworldly. I stood looking at this shelf, out of body, and thinking - "how the heck am I supposed to get up there???" then I woke up.
...But, the first time I made it to the shelf - I found an empty coke can. Crumpled, old, empty can. This stuck in my mind because I knew upon waking that it was so ludicrous. There was no way a coke can would have gotten on the shelf. The shelf is built into the house, and it would have meant that someone would have had to throw the can up to this shelf - ten feet off the ground - it made no sense. I was really upset by it, feeling like "If I can't trust what I see, then I am never going to prove to myself that we survive death." (Or something along those lines.)
After maybe a half dozen attempts to read the note, I told husband that I couldn't read it. It was too dark (something that I thought shouldn't matter before I had any experience) and so we should take the note down and put something that I could identify by feel.
I got a ladder, and climbed up - and on the otherwise empty shelf was a pull-tab from an empty coke can - it had been there for years, covered with dust. Also there was the note, which said "WAKE UP!" (my husband's idea of a joke.)
I had been convinced that the empty coke can had been entirely a mental construct. Finding a tab from a coke can was so unexpected. It was only a little thing, and it might not mean much - but it was so surprising and rewarding.
(I won't comment on the fact that every time I tried to get to the note, I would 'wake up.' Grrrr. )"




nightflier101

"One day I decided to try a conscious projection, but to have proof I put a playing card in a box hanging from the ceiling. I read this book about Ingo Swan, a psycic who performed the same experiment for a scientist.
I got out in about 10 minutes of trying, but I was only halfway between my physical body and the box. Being my first conscious projection, I started flapping my arms, but it worked. I got up to the box and looked down inside and saw the 8 of diamonds. I immediately woke up back in the chair I was sitting in, my head was slumped down as if sleeping. I stood on the chair and took down the box and looked inside, it was! it was! ...the 8 of diamonds."





manuel

I think I will post some of my experiences here on such maters, when I first started having these experiences, I remember one very clear one, I went into my parents room, floated to the top of the ceiling, and looked down and saw my mother asleep on the bed by her self, I noticed that my father was not there, I also noticed how the sheets where moved where my father was previously, I noticed my mother was some what awake, but still lying in bed, now I get up after this experience go to there room and see pretty much the exact same thing, I had no prior knowledge on this either, the only thing was my mother was asleep but not up, I can only conclude in that mater that I saw the a few minutes into the "future" in fact, this did not hit me until later when I realised hey!..She was by her self, another experience that happened halfway during 2003, I got up out of my body, gently floated out the window, and saw my father to my right hand side of the yard, I noticed his clothes and his position, I only saw this for a fraction of the time, after this, I went through my neighbours house and noticed some things, all this was later verified afterwards, and yes, no prior knowledge on the clothes, his position, and what contained in the neighbours house (peeking over the fence confirmed this for me).

Another trip was to LA California to a close friend I know, I noticed clothes, bed, sleeping, etc, pretty much everything matched up excluded that I saw writing on her shirt when there was non, this plus other little experiences in seeing the correct weather etc




Zarklon

They can be really frustrating.. when I passed through the wall and saw my dad laying on the bed like that one night , I thought that it was a reality fluctuation and I ended the experience purposely.... Turns out that , he really WAS laying like that so I hope you can grasp just how tricky the astral really is..





Tescious


I had a friend who was skeptic so we did a test. I told him to set any of his X-Box games on his desk until I can successfully project over there and tell him what game he set on his desk. 2 Days later, I did an afternoon projection and proceeded to his house, I failed. Later that night, I attempted again and this time when I got there I looked on his desk and thought I fell into the 'Alice' effect because I saw 2 X-Box games and couldn't really make them out so I considered this a failure too.

The next day I told him I think I slipped into some astral dream because I saw 2 X-box games and couldn't make out either one. Plus, I knew he had only put 1 there. When I told him this, he looked at me like he had seen a ghost and when I asked what was wrong, he told me he put 2 games instead of 1 just to see if I'd really do it because in a dream I could make a good guess based on expectations, so he started to become a believer.

[clandestino]

Nice work Meedan !

[flake]

A guy I know once projected into his mother´s apartment´s bedroom and saw his mother changing sheets. When the guy woke up he immidiately called his mom and asked her what she was doing, and she said "I´m changing sheets"

[Stillwater]

[]These are all charming anecdotes! Thank you Stephen, Meedan, and Flake! One cannot take any one of these stories at face value, as they are second-hand, but they really do generate some serious thought.

I would love to read any others!

Thank you,
Stillwater

[Meedan]

This site http://www.near-death.com/ has some good info too

[Kazbadan]

Really good work Meedan! Afterall there are many proofs! Now, the game it is 2-2, because that material is good! Only within a few weeks i will try obes, because i have insomnias and i cant loose my sleep, or i will work like a zombie in the next day!

On more question. How do you (you= any one reading this) feel your obes? There are people that says that obes seems like a kind of an almost real dream. But for other people obes are experiences real as reality, the only difference is that they live it outside the body. So, caompared to reality, how do you feel obes, are they real enough to scare you if you try to jump a leap between two high buildings, or if you fall from a cloud?

I know that some people experience obes as a kind of lucid dream, but there are a few experiencing it as something so real as reality, with no difference, like if they are ther indeed (but in soul instead of a body). I asked this before but i ask again only for statistic comparison.

[Veccolo]

Well I can only speak for the lucid dreams I had. I had lucid dreams which were totally blurry and not vivid at all. In these there seems to be a lack of control over the dream, probably because it's too "dreamish". Then I had lucid dreams which were just as vivid as real life. Much control, very stable.

Maybe it's similar with OBEs.

[Stillwater]

quote:Now, the game it is 2-2, because that material is good!

[] Yeah, this site is of interest. Things do seem to be shaping up somewhat nicely for our purposes, Kazbadan.

I am surprised at this turnout. Any more info would be greatly appreciated- all we can get is grand.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[Meedan]

Out of the people I've heard from that have experienced both lucid dreams and OBEs, the majority have said that OBEs feel more real than the most vivid lucid dream. Obviously, we'll see what people say here rather than taking my word for that.

quote:Originally posted by Veccolo

Well I can only speak for the lucid dreams I had. I had lucid dreams which were totally blurry and not vivid at all. In these there seems to be a lack of control over the dream, probably because it's too "dreamish". Then I had lucid dreams which were just as vivid as real life. Much control, very stable.

Maybe it's similar with OBEs.

This is the concentration concept I was talking about. The clarity and lucidity of a lucid dream depend on your concentration and awareness at that time. Just like OBEs, if you let your mind wander, or lose concentration, things will seem to distort or become more dream-like. Lucid dreams are obviously easier to maintain than OBEs (since the dreamworld is generated in your own mind anyway).

[Tombo]

Nice Thread! I'm trying it as well. My Girlfirend draw something "Hard to guess" and I attached the drawing close to my bed. I do only have obe's seldom, but I'll try until I succed and get it and then I'll post my experience. If Obe's are real out of body experiences it most be possible to proof so! If not, then we need to know! If enough people participe we will gain sufficent info pretty quickly. I for one will work on that proof until I get positiv results before investing endless energy in something that might be a hallucination! ( I truely hope and believe it's not, though)

Lets get that straight once and for ever...

[manuel]

Very cool thread guys, oh if any one is interested, get the book called "mindsight" i think, its about blind people having nde's, very good so i have heard, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966963008/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-0415852-3810358?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[manuel]

Here is a great experience i took from,
http://www.homestead.com/louisobe/files/Chapter_5.htm
and
http://www.homestead.com/louisobe/louisobe.html

"7/29/98

Had difficulty falling asleep. Around three fifteen I fell asleep. I briefly entered the mind/awake body/asleep state, then it diminished. The numbing effect startled me because I was not expecting it. I got up for a while and read a book until three forty-five AM. I laid down and decided to visit J if I entered the state again. I focused on J and immediately found myself at a location resembling my work place. I noticed that there was a strange illumination and trying to find the light source, I looked up. There was no ceiling. All I could see was a deep darkness that seemed to stretch into infinite. I used my sense of radar to perceive what was beyond the four walls, more nothingness. I heard a continuos noise which I knew was a box tape dispenser. Following the noise I found J making boxes and using the tape dispenser. I went over to him to see what he was doing OOB. I noticed that his eyes were closed. He was performing his work duties effortlessly with his eyes closed. I reasoned to myself that he must be dreaming and decided to wake him to see if he could realize the OOBE. I began shaking him, when this did not work I began slapping him. He began mumbling and when he opened his eyes we disappeared from this location. Suddenly we were in a dark room with him lying on a bed and me over him. I began yelling at him "You are out of body, you are out of body!" He began to reconnect with his physical body. When he reconnected he became less distinct, almost transparent. There was also some sort of turbulence which I felt when he reconnected. I decided to reconnect with my physical and focused gently. I merged with the physical and turned my head to see the time. The time was four-thirty AM "but wait, I do not have a digital clock." I opened my eyes and saw my clock, it read four-thirty AM. Somehow I was seeing a digital clock with my eyes closed. I wrote this down. Time away was forty-five minutes.

Afterthoughts

* Where was this replica work place located at?

* What was the darkness that I perceived surrounding this replica work place?

Confirmation

When I got to work I approached J and without disclosing anything about the experience I asked him if he had experienced anything peculiar. He said that he had trouble getting a good nights sleep. I asked him if he remembered anything and he said yes. He had a couple of dreams. In one of these dreams he was at work making some boxes. I asked him if he had awakened anytime during the night. He said that he usually would wake up several times a night to drink water or use the restroom. I asked more specifically if he had awakened in an unusual way and after a couple of moments he said, "Yes, I woke up for no apparent reason with a jump and for some reason I looked at the clock. The time was four-thirty AM." I thanked him for the info and since he is also a person interested in the paranormal I disclosed my side of the story. He loved it. By the way, he says he has a digital clock next to his bed."

I can verify that this guy is genuine as he is my friends, friend.