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I don't know if we can project into another person's dream but we can view it as an outsider. This is only my personal view and my disbelief may only make it true for myself.

Of course, all this is determined by our own definitions of what a dream is.

I think that most of us get the concept but understand that no matter how "smart" we think we are, we know that there is just no way to know with any real certainty what "the beginning" is.

Who is smarter? The person who accepts his limitations and arrives at the correct conclusion that we will never know the truth from our current physical perception or the person that refuses to accept his limitations and learns a little more truth but arrives at a false conclusion?

I don't know but I do feel that the person who does not accept their limitations flirts with madness.

Couldn't agree more, and don't worry, I will never convert to Christianity, not out of fear, and probably not for any other reason either. I prefer being spiritual rather than religious...well actually, I follow my own religion, with my own gods and goddesses...laugh if you will, but I've been developing it since my childhood and even though I may be slowly losing interest in it in favor of more general spirituality, I will never let it die. My gods have answered my prayers before, and I have even had limited success casting out demons in the name of one of the gods...the only reason I can't do that now is because these demons I am currently dealing with attack my core trust and make me doubt ANYTHING that normally gives me comfort. It's a real uphill struggle to fight them back and remain faithful to my own beliefs, especially when the demonic manifestations of my own fear and doubt can actually be felt as physical sensations on my body, but I've done it before.

When I first started having OOBE's, I was still a Christian and had quite a bit of fear that I would run into demons. Despite this fear of running into them, I never did. At least that is what I thought. I later found out that some of the beings I encountered were what others considered to be demons in the Christian sense. Only I saw them for what they were.

Maybe I was lucky because if I had viewed them in the sense that others have, I may not have been able to see through the fear that creates them.

My interpretation of a demon is a consciousness that has wasted it's potential and is on it's way out of existence. The only reason they can still linger is through the power of the fear we give them. Otherwise, they would not have enough of their own energy left to exist. For one reason or another, they did not evolve and the "game" is just about up for them. It's a real shame but this is the result of not growing spiritually.

Ahh no luck guys.

My hands became upside down, but when I tried to "Get up" the only feedback I got was my physical body twitching and the feeling of sill being locked inside my body.

What's weird is that the only time I am usually aware of my "astral" body in respect to my physical body is when I have a spontaneous OOBE. Even weirder is that I  have to sleep face down and I can sit straight up meaning that my astral body is oriented opposite of my physical.

Why do we have unusual experiences when we are ill?

I think the answer is always the same. It comes down to our mindset which determines our perception.

Feeling ill means we are not experiencing life in our normal state. So we are already viewing this time as different than normal and this may allow us to see things just a little differently.

Or our brains may just be frying from the fever and induces hallucinations.

Christianity has done an excellent job to create fear where are doubt lies. Since we are naturally curious, this creates a lot of fear and gives the church a lot of control over us.

Just having an interest in OOBE is enough to give "demons" a foot into our lives. Well the same thing can be said about pink bunnies but that doesn't scare us into church every Sunday with our pocketbooks.

In fact, ask a Christian about what I am saying and they will tell you that I must be demon influenced to tell you these things and that this is proof of what they are saying. It comes down to your beliefs and perceptions.

I can't say whether or not Christianity will give you any peace but I can say that it did nothing for me and I was a true believer. Many people find a lot of comfort in religious belief systems and this is something you will have to decide for yourself. Do you want blind comfort or knowledge. Eventually the knowledge is so much more than just comfort but it takes a lot of work to get it. You just have to be willing to face your fears. What good is a life if you're too scared to live it?

I'm no where close to having any of the answers but I can at least say that I no longer fear demons or any other negative thought form in that sense.

My only fear is whether or not I am doing enough to "earn" my existence. But I am concerned about many other things.

Our individual minds are so much more powerful then most religions want us to know and they tell us that thinking this is a deadly sin. Well it does mean the death of something but it isn't our "salvation" or "afterlife".

This sounds like what I used to get when I was ill.

I remember zooming in and out on a wallpaper pattern from across the bedroom when I was younger. Take away the 'ill' bit and it sounds the same.

This sounds similar to Oliver Fox's story.

Welcome. If you have only been trying to have an OOBE for a few days and the best you can manage is a little frustration and some sleep, then you are on the right track.

Believe me when I say that you have already learned enough of the "technical" stuff concerning techniques and it's just a matter of dedication and time.

I read one chapter from one book on one technique. I do not say this because I want you to think I am special. I say this because beginners get caught up in learning all the many different techniques but fail to see that they are essentially all the same.

Since you have already been practicing some, I'm sure you can see for yourself what the basics are. While I do believe that anybody who continues to try will eventually succeed, there is one thing that you can ask yourself to see if you can find success a little quicker.

Why do you want to have an OOBE? This is so important and answer it truthfully to yourself. Maybe you have heard some neat things about flying or meeting aliens and traveling to other realms. That's all true but why do you want to do these things?

There is no right or wrong answer, it's just that answering it may help you to see some roadblocks that you have placed in your path. This will help expose your fears and beliefs that are in the way. If you're scared of demons and all that other negative thought jargon, you may be letting your fear stop you at the crucial moment. There is nothing at all to fear but you will have to take this journey for yourself to KNOW this.

When it comes to smoking, the only thing that I am certain is that if you think it will be a problem for you then it will be. But I think it would be a shame to succeed and not know the experience was real because you had smoked right before. Decide which is more important to you right now. I'm not saying that smoking is bad for you or that it will prevent you from success but if you're not willing to give it up to see, then you may not be ready. Maybe you are.

Just being interested shows that you are ready to change you're mindset and sometimes that is all it takes. You may already be buckled in, ready for lift off, and not even know it. Good luck and keep exploring.

I don't know what to say other than you know we will.
Your daughter is lucky to have you for a parent.

Sorry guys, but this is a mirage caused by swamp gas.

Very interesting, read the whole thread, thanks for posting.  I'm not going to comment on the equation in mathematical terms; I hated math.  You can chalk up ANY good deed to spiritual nourishment.  I think its sad to "know" that no matter what you do for others, its really all for yourself in the end.  For someone who wishes to become or believe that in the past they've been completely selfless for the greater good of another, that equation can be a bummer.  I guess thats ego though too.  "Im a good person and have no selfish needs, don't prove me wrong"  I guess I have to believe in something like this:  if the equation can't be proven wrong, then we shouldn't focus on ourselves and our inability to be selfless.  Just focus on filling yourself up with good karma, pay it forward, always be kind, promote peace externally and internally...  Maybe humans are incapable of detaching from the ego completely.  Maybe we need a billboard that says something like "being kind benefits you!  Stop being a Jerk" Maybe that would change the world faster than trying to shed the ego all together.  Do I make sense?! 

You make an interesting point. If we approached kindness from the angle that helping others will help ourselves, it may appeal to larger egos less inclined.

From what I can gather it is a group experience to see if subjective alter realities can be proven also to be objective.  Would this be correct?

Yes. From what I can gather, the core group from this sight a few years back wanted to see if they could collectively create a location in the astral and then meet up there.

While I believe it is possible, I have never personally met another being while phasing that I thought or knew still had a living physical body.

The ability to have an OOBE is a very simple and is a natural process that is overcomplicated and made even more so by our cultural beliefs that it is not possible.

As far as helping your friend, tell her to turn clockwise three times starting from a North facing position and this will rid her of her entity. That sounds silly and it is but I am trying to making a point that the solution is as simple as believing the entity is gone and it will be.

Good luck.

Yes I saw that IAB but I still couldn't connect the dots...why/how (?) this subject came up.
I don't know why it was necessary for you to make this point.  Perhaps I missed it...

I remember when I read what you wrote - my thoughts went something like 'is this person pulling my chain or what?'  I mean it is obvious is it not?

You said:
I thought to myself:
"I would have to exist in order for me to prove anything to you.  You would have to exist in order for me to prove anything to you. What has belief got to do with it?  It is simply matter of fact."

So it seemed moot and beside the point...

It does give me pause to chuckle though. 

It was in a hypothetical situation, will. Scientists do it all the time but I'm not gonna waste anytime trying to give you an example because you will just attack the hypothetical example rather than try to see the point at all. I can clearly see now that we are not here debating a theory at all. We are just here to be taught your theory or more appropriately, your theorem.

It depends on the use and circumstances / and how it is prepared; in some regards, it is among the most potent hallucinogens, and the experiences can last nearly for 12 hours or longer.

Still- I'm sure you are right. The one and only time that SWIM smoked some was in a tobacco pipe and SWIM took two tokes.

Swim found that it was a better experience than acid but not as much as much mushrooms. It only lasted for about an hour but it was a very strange and pleasant episode.

Here is something that I drew.

I wouldn't know good art if if slap me into the Astral, but I know what I like and me likes this. Very cool.

It depends on the use and circumstances / and how it is prepared; in some regards, it is among the most potent hallucinogens, and the experiences can last nearly for 12 hours or longer.

Thanks for the clarification Still. It's now one last thing that I am less ignorant on.

I'm really glad to hear that your still doing the right thing for yourself. I know you're not trying to kick heroin or anything like that but, those other drugs aren't your problem and your facing the one that is.

Back when I was sheep and still a Christian, I used to council young teens about the dangers of smoking "the reefer". The material that I was required to go over with the group was total and complete horse manure.

Anyways, I would suggest that when you start asking questions about OOBE's and such, I think it would be a good idea to at least once a day tell us that...hey, by the way, It's been three days since I last smoked or something to that effect.

I know it sounds corny but it really is a good motivator because you begin to feel as if you are letting us down if you relapse. Believe me, you're not letting us down if you slip but it can help to tell us because we are all here to help each other. This forum is full of some kind and genuine people who really do take a sincere interest in helping our fellow members.

This is just a side note and I don't even know if you'll find anything in the older posts that may seem insensitive towards Islam but if you do, just know that we kid around about every form of organized religion.

Hey, one last thing. I'm curious to know what your religion has to say about APing and other OOBE's. When I was still a Christian, I was told to pack a lot of sun screen for my last vacation.

Well good luck and keep exploring.

Hi, sorry, whats DMT? thanks M

It's a mild, short acting hallucinogen. It is present in our bodies naturally in high levels when we are born and when we die. That's all I know and it may not even be correct.

Are we all good now?

Almost.

You asked this:

What has this got to do with what I have been saying about Consciousness, beginnings, Higher Self. Sophism, being distracted by Egocentric constructs a discussion does not make.

When I wrote:

I'm not saying I exist without anyone else. I'm saying I exist despite of anyone else I know with my current physical brain and knowledge of.
So no dishonesty implied or intended.
Besides, I only made the statement in context of a theory that is not necessarily my own but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you. But if you do actually have a way to prove this to me then I would be believing in the wrong thing and I assure you, it wouldn't be the first time.

Which was a response to this question of your's:

Can you elaborate this concept for me IAB...

I thought you wanted me to elaborate per your request so I did.

O.k. We're good now and always were.

I found this website and it explained somethings but not much. I first though that it might be a fake but that makes no sense since amethyst are quite common. Like Peridot (lime-green and beautiful), amethyst was an extremely valuable gem until they were discovered in abundance in the new world.

Hey Chops, China has the most valuable Peridot in the world so you should buy you a nice one before you move if you ever decide to. It would be a quarter of the price and it has some interesting mystic properties if your in to that.

What has this got to do with what I have been saying about Consciousness, beginnings, Higher Self.

Sophism, being distracted by Egocentric constructs a discussion does not make.

Please read the following in case you missed it the first time:

Will, as much as we have all communicated with each other on this thread, it never gets to deviate from the your main focus. Mostly because you won't let it. That's cool, I understand the thread rules and all. But I understand a little bit about people too.

People like to discuss things...sometimes serious stuff and other times not. Many of us are fascinated by the same things but the problem is that we are not all completely serious about the same things. So topics on a thread can tend to wander and eventually evolve into a new beast. That's alright if your just fascinated with the topic but it sux if your real serious about it.

I guess there's nothing wrong with that but what happens is that you miss out on getting to understand a person and what they are like and how they joke. These little things come out when a topic strays off course. In other words you don't learn anything about thier personality...as much as this particular medium allows anyhow.

You're an SS Obergruppenfuhrer of the topic brigade and won't allow it to wander more than half a sentence. Just saying is all, no biggie.

Hey  Bugzz. Just wanted to see how you slept your first night with no pot. It's only been about 16 hrs since you're post but due to the time difference, I'm sure you slept at some point. Anyways, success at phasing might not come quickly but progress is made every minute of every day.

The same is true about not wanting to smoke. Only you know if it is truly a problem for you to smoke occasionally but I agree with Beedeekin and say weekends should be no problem. Pot wouldn't even be a "gateway" drug if it's true properties weren't lied about.

The problem with lying about it is that when young teens finally try it and realize their life isn't over, they wonder what other drugs have been lied about.

Ask it to come with you so long as it is truly benign. Put the part about it being a loving cat out there first, don't just give it permission to come.

Could it possibly be attached to one of your cats? If so, you may not have a choice.

You mentioned that you are currently in he basement of a home, might the shadow cat belong to the upstairs tenants? You should ask them if they had a kitty one time.

All in all though, it really is a rather gross mistake to conclude that as consciousness 'I am' the only thing which really exists as 'real' and everyONE else is 'my' construct...

The truthful way to view this is that you, me , everyone is equally real, no argument, and if there is any voice of protest against this concept, it is likely sourced at the Ego.

We simply cannot objectively say "I exist without anyone else" without this being merely an expression of Ego.  It would not matter if the expression was coming from Little, Big or Super Ego, or all three combined...it must still be a dishonest expression yes?


I'm not saying I exist without anyone else. I'm saying I exist despite of anyone else I know with my current physical brain and knowledge of.

So no dishonesty implied or intended.

Besides, I only made the statement in context of a theory that is not necessarily my own but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you. But if you do actually have a way to prove this to me then I would be believing in the wrong thing and I assure you, it wouldn't be the first time.