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Thanks Volgerle-

That's just what was talking about.

Seems to me that would be irrefutable evidence of a valid experience.

If someone on this board could try this and report back that would be great.

I will do so as soon as I learn how to OBE. I am having lucid dreams about once a week right now but although I can attain lucidity, I have been unable to transition to OBE from there. Any suggestions on that topic would be welcomed.

Once you have your awareness it's really a matter of what you want to do next. But for me any time I project from a dream, my experiences are always more colorful. Though I certainly believe in the experience, I won't defend these types as the "real deal" although I certainly believe they are.

During the dream you have to have enough awareness to stop manipulating the dream and actually do "away with it". Then just imagine where you want to go and how you want to get there. There are other ways I'm sure but this is what works for me. This may sound crazy to you but I actually just prefer to stay in the lucid dream as it is and work with in the narrative now. This is because I'm starting to see that there is so much more to a regular "dream" than I believed.

What I think you're mostly interested in is a RTZ projection. These too are the ones I want the most right now. After 12 years, I am just now achieving them with some sort of consistency so my statement of it just being a matter of intent seems to fall short for me as well.

Search through some of LionHeart's posts. He is very good at reaching his desired destinations be it the RTZ or others. As most of us have come to realize, the RTZ can be elusive when we want it.

okay why when I suddenly wake up in the middle of the night I am not paralyzed? 

I give up... Why?

As I have said in this thread, I have no conscious recollection of ever going to NPMR yet I fully understand that I do go there all the time…I choose to not remember because it is important that I am not unduly influenced by what I might experience there…in terms of my purpose here.

One day I will leave this mortal vessel and I want to be prepared.  There is data which suggests that all is not as it should be, the more I interact with those who report back here of their experiences there – something is not quiet right.

If you choose to stick around and I hope you do, I would like to talk about this since it seems relevant to your reasoning or rationale.

I'm not sure what data you are referring to but there is a glaring fallacy. The NPR is sooooooo subjective that no one can simply rely on testimony as to what is actually happening.

There is a law at work in the NPR and that is that Like attracts Like. Negativity attracts negativity and of course the opposite is true. Since you are aware that you too visit "there" as we all do, your subconscious is most likely being influenced by your intentions and underlying suspicions. I also see a lot of error in your belief that you are storing some unrealized knowledge that you will instantly be privy to once your physical dies.

If that were true, I think we would be flooded with a storm of overwhelming knowledge each time we intentionally went to the NPR. Of course, this is just my belief and I know others here on this forum don't fall in line with this. But all I have is my own personal subjective experiences to rely on.

What I'm getting at is why don't you want to experience this with awareness yourself? I think you will be amazed and may actually change some of this theory. And you may change it with a smile.

No one is saying move on. You are certainly welcome. But there is something in your delivery that seems authoritative. Which we are all guilty of from time to time.

But if you feel you should go that is up to you. But it seems as if this is the emerging pattern. Some reflection as to why this is so may be due.

I say stick around and drop another theory on us. I love it and according to the five pages your thread racked up in two days, I think other do as well.

edit: I do want to give Steel Hawk credit for this:

Meaning that through praying to the elves and eating goat testicles, one can have whatever they desire manifest. Of course there are catches, the skill of the person at eating goat testicles, the size of the goat testicles, how long it takes you to swallow the load of testicles, and of course if the elves even have what you ask to give. These all matter.

This ladies and gentlemen must be read and then reread until you can say it at the drop of a hat. There is so much truth in this that I wonder if it's origin lies in another reality.

I split my side reading this.

I live about 1 and a half hours from the Mexican border so I don't really know what good English sounds like anymore.

1) Is it possible to project while listening to music? Whit music I don't mean binaural beats and stuff like that but soundtracks and classic music.

Personally binaural beats are a distraction and so I have never given them a fair chance. But I have heard many good things about them. Many people have reported projecting while listening to their favorite music.

2) Is it preferable to lie on your back, or is it better to lie in the position you normally use to go to sleep?

Many people suggest not lying down at all when trying to first learn since this easily leads to sleep. However, this is the only way I ever done it. I can't lay on my back for any length of time so I lay on my stomach usually. This really is a personal choice and comfort thing for everyone to find out for themselves.

3) When you are in the astral, will your sight come automatic or do you need to do something to get it? And how do you see, i red at some places that you will see in a 360 degree perspective, while others say you see the same as you do in physical life.

I almost always have my sight without having to think about it. The only exceptions is when I fade into a 3-D blackness and nothing helps me to see then. For me the 360 degree vision is more of a real sense of just knowing what is there. Though I do believe that the more accomplished projectors have this ability in actual astral sight. For now, don't worry too much about this. You will have no problem seeing.

4) did anyone here met another astral traveler when he was out?

I have met many beings in the astral but I can not verify that they were living people here that were just projecting as I was.

5) Is it possible to learn things in the astral, that you can use in daily life, like a language, playing an instrument,... or is that impossible?

You will learn many unbelievable things. Unfortunately you will have to have a strong working knowledge of the subjects in which you are interested. So if you already know how to play an instrument, then you will most likely learn a few tips that you would not have considered otherwise. But this doesn't mean somebody else hasn't already learned them on their own without the astral. I think we stand little chance of understanding complicated matters of which we don't already have a frame of reference to work with. Then there is the less than small matter of remembering it all.

Good questions and keep exploring.

All I can say is that this place is real to me. The more fantastical the experience, the less I like to speak of them.

I got to be the pilot in a simulated UFO. If I demonstrated some ability to not kill myself, I could have flown  the real thing.

Due to my excitement and bad nerves I could not stabilize the projection long enough to get it down. Not to mention that the simulated flight was in a compacted city. Their version of a sky rise reminded me of the Eiffel Tower where the support base was almost identical but the housing was a dome consisting of about 500 independent living quarters. I never actually saw the ground as it was heavily misted. But they lived in darkness and their entire "planet was artificial including the neon bright stars in their sky.

I never went into one but I had the distinct notion to not refer to them as apartments.

Anyways, back to the UFO. I can't remember what they called the craft but it was named after their numeric system so there really isn't a direct translation but it would be close to an F-16 type label.

The version I tried to pilot was also an antiquated version of there newest one which relied on totally different tech. This one was magnetically propelled and not capable of interstellar travel. Basically it generated it's own magnetic charge both internally and externally and used like charges for propulsion and hovered by creating opposite charges. This is actually a widely considered theory here. They said that if I was there in the physical, my brain could hemorrhage without a proper suit. This was due to the sudden change in the interior magnetic field and not the speed. They are unaffected by it.

One last thing, not that it matters but I also remember that it was a war craft.

Don't be that guy who gave up one attempt to soon.

What Szaxx was saying is what I call capturing that feeling. If you can remember how you felt when you had your awareness in your lucid dreams, you can bring that feeling back when your trying to phase consciously. What do you have to lose by not giving up? In contrast, you know what your losing if you do.

I say commit to the Oliver Fox idea now.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssse permit me one measly scene for consideration. I know the format for writing a screenplay.

All credit would be yours of course.

How often do we have a chance helping others live a dream in the physical from start to finish.

My mind is locked on the potential of such a movie.

It seems to me, that if anybody really harnessed their  non physical knowledge and applied it in the physical, they would have to be the Shaolin Monks.

I saw a National Geographic show in which a Shaolin Monk used his Chi to stop a sharp spear. He leaned against it with more than ten times the normal force needed to penetrate skin.

They had a surgeon and make shift ER on locale to do the stunt. That may have been a promotional stunt on to itself but the reasoning was that this was so dangerous that the researchers wouldn't allow him to do this with out the doctor there since they were sure that he would puncture his throat.

They said that other than a callous, there is no way to harden the skin and even that wouldn't have stopped the spear.

That would be perfect. You could even use his phrase and call it " A dream of Knowledge".

Very well put.

Another possibility is that they are your own projection. But I wonder why you feel that you need them "there" for protection.

In any case, once you feel more comfortable, you'll find that you need them less and less in the astral and more and more in the physical for different reasons.

Good question.

Could you really pull off a feature? I don't doubt your talent and ability for one second but that takes a lot of time and money doesn't it?

But back to your idea. I was just thinking that a Donnie Darko type movie from an AP perspective would be awesome.

But a shorter, more informative video could portray an actual OOBE that one of us has had with some before and after narrative explaining what is happening.

There is a saying that nothing is new under the sun so the "freshness" will have to come from the writing and direction obviously.

I feel as if there really is some good info in his posts but it's as if our ideas are quickly dismissed with no consideration.

Which is fine, but it leaves a bitter taste.

Wi11iam, it would be useful to know if you are speaking from a theoretical stance or more of an affirmative one. You seem really dismissive. It's like I'm back in college and some pompous kid keeps challenging the professor.

Only I'm not sure who is the pompous kid and who is the professor.

Hey, what does Chinese folklore and their modern philosophy have to say about AP and OOBE's?

You have to cut your poor pops some slack on this one. I'm not a father but I'm pretty sure any good parent is grateful that they didn't hurt their child but at the same time, they can't help but torture themselves with what might have been.

I say try and squeeze a few sympathy gifts out of him then let him off the hook.

I'm to lazy to do the research right now but the flight took place over a huge, coastal city surrounded by mountains. It was super modern like New York City, does this sound like a real city in China?

I'm starting to think that I should have used my awareness to ask him if I was on a smuggling flight with him. I would have been pist. 

I understand that behind this wise sounding expression is a personality who does have a purpose and is acting out that purpose in relation to what is out out and what returns.

Is that a nice way of saying it isn't a wise statement? Because I think it is wise to understand that no matter how much knowledge we gain, unless that knowledge helps us to figure out away to change what it is, it will serve us well to accept things that are beyond our control. Or else we risk going mad.

I'm not trying to speak for Beedeekin, but I'm pretty sure that what he was saying is that trying to understand when this simulation began and for what purpose is a good thing, but it becomes purpose defeating if we stop trying to live in the moment. You know, making the best of what we have and what we have been dealt. Even if there is a malevolent intent behind this simulation, what do we have to gain by worrying about it? In contrast, there is much to lose.

Good grief Chopsticks, are you alright for real? In my experience, flesh and bone is usually not much competition for a ton of accelerated mass.

Hey, I had a dream last night that I was flying over China in a plane. Some man who was my uncle but really wasn't, was telling me how he used to smuggle stuff into China in the 80's. I caught my awareness and asked him what he smuggled, and the a-hole shut me down. He told me to listen because he had a point to make.

He said that he smuggled in pairs back then. As in two planes, two pilots. Something went wrong with his plane so the Chinese flew him back out. During his departure flight, a transmission came over the radio in which his partners plane was being discussed. He said he almost mentioned that he knew that guy, but for some reason he kept his mouth shut.

When he made it home, he found out that his partner had been caught and was never heard from again. He said that if he would have mentioned knowing him, the Chinese would have turned the plane back that he was on without a second thought. And he too would never have been heard from again.

This was a "normal" dream but it seemed like such a good lesson. Keep your mouth shut if you don't understand everything that is happening. But why the Chinese?

In essence, that's it. To share another reality is a dream. That doesn't cheapen the experience.

Then if thats the case, lucid dreams and OBEs are the same exact thing. lol I was under the impression that it was not, mainly from OBEr's saying it was different, so the room or state or universe you visited as I do in every LD, well... it is INDEED all in your head. A dream. I was honestly not trying to force an idea onto someone, but what he experienced IS a very typical everyday successful lucid dream. But if you say it is an OBE, especially because one wants to think it is, then...umm
It is not an experience OUTSIDE of the mind, if it were, you would never remember it, as the soul does not have memory, and it wouldn't be magical and fun like swimming in the creative mind, it would be quite sobering, but again you would never remember it.
I think Im going to head to another web forum, I think you guys are highly confused as to what an OBE is, and how it is different from an LD, mainly because... "you make a personal choice to view it differently" ok so an orange is blue, because I decided it was.

"you make a personal choice to view it differently"

In a word, yes.

I think you guys are highly confused as to what an OBE is, and how it is different from an LD

Says Sam. And you are? Not an expert. Well that's cool because even the experts don't have all the answers. But really, you should at least wait until you have your first OOBE before you decide what it is. Then you'll clearly see that this can't be squeezed into a pretty picture for everybody to view identically.

so an orange is blue, because I decided it was.


No. An orange is orange, regardless of what anybody call's it. Otherwise, when you're parents wake you up for school every morning, that refreshing morning drink they pour for you would be called blue juice; much like the kool-aid you drink to feel good.

Some people devour every word of them to find comfort in the existence of an afterlife. And where fear lies, there is much money to be made.

I'm a capitalist so this is a good thing in my opinion.

What isn't good and I detest it as such is when they do nothing to dispel the fear. We will always find something to worry about or to be scared of so acknowledging that fear is only natural.

The irony is that if we could definitively prove there wasn't an afterlife and that a box is the only thing waiting for us, many would surely worry more about this even though they had no control over it.

As I said in my last post, you have opened my eyes to possibilities that I need to consider during my OOBE's, so for that I am grateful.

I have never had a problem acknowledging to myself that my intellect is inferior to beings that are in fact intellectually superior to my own. But I try to never let them know. And usually I can remedy the problem with a little studying but nothing can make up for hereditary limitations. And knowing my own limitations helps me as much as knowing someone else may have none. In other words, I can steer clear of them.

As history has shown us here on this planet and in this reality, the intellectually inferior have much to fear.

I have a problem with labeling something as good or evil. To me, everything has it's place and it's purpose. I admit that this is a very recent development in my personal philosophy though so I struggle to flesh it out in words.

Most religions that I am aware of view evil as a choice of free will to turn away from the "light" or to oppose the "creator". By that standard, evil can easily be defined. This concept has become so ingrained in our thinking that we have a very hard time seeing it any other way even when we try not to.

But what if we there was no free will? Wouldn't this make our creator or source evil for making us essentially slaves? If so, would that make us evil since our creator was?

What we view as good or evil is determined from our individual perspective. Hitler certainly loved some people and was loved in turn. Is the love they felt for each other evil because they were considered evil?

These are just questions that I ask myself and I am no where close to having an answer.

Exactly.

like I stated I never perceived there was a guide. No one ever came to me and stated they were my guide or that I needed guiding.

I only heard about them when I came online in about 2003... maybe 2004. I was very late in the game as far as the internet goes. I also never read any OOBE based books other than Oliver Fox's 'Astral Projection' and Monroe's 'Journeys Out of the Body'.. and I didn't read them until I had already had an experience base of 10 years. I've lived quite a sheltered life as far as paranormal literature goes.. other than UFO books.. and they were because of my job.

When I did read about them online I instantly dismissed them as something created or imagined... I actually only entertained the idea after reading MBT about 2 years ago. Then I searched and found what I consider my guide. He never speaks... or conveys any information like those I have read about. He is completely silent and seems to only communicate via actions by showing me certain things or taking me certain places of interest. Which is curious by itself don't ya think?

To be honest, I never used the term guide until I found this forum.  But for me it makes perfect sense and I'm comfortable with it. I must of had at least a couple dozen OOBE's before I met my guide. I was annoying an old man and he told me he couldn't really help me so I asked him who could. He told me to ask the angel who was always following me. She appeared and said she was there to help me when I needed it. And that's how it went until about two years ago and Sarah became Sarak. For the longest time I viewed everything through my dying belief system and only wanted to have non-challenging experiences.

Another term I just learned was 3-d blackness. I'm amazed by some of Lion's post wherein he describes his shift from one "locale" to another. If I go to the 3-D blackness, it's always at the end and there is a lesson or something "profound" for me to understand. This usually warps my mind and sends me back.

I have to admit that I have never once questioned the motive of my guides. It never seemed necessary since they only project unconditional love and understanding.

Up until now, I never considered there could be any way to mask their true agenda. William has made me think about this because I have always considered them superior to me but not because they implied this or told me so. If nothing else, they are intellectually superior.

But they always admit that our intellectual capacity is limited by our physical existence and not because some info is being withheld.

But who really knows? I have a very interesting OOBE to look forward to next, as if that isn't always the case.

What came first must be that which had no beginning.  As we know, simulations are for experiencing 'things' and that in itself is not 'good or bad' but if we had even a smidgen of an inkling that 'we' are the sole 'source' of all simulations, we redefine our own ...ummm... 'Self' or 'is-ness' ...we remove the need of 'others' to tell us who we are, or to exert their will or influence over us as somehow superior.
This is not to say that we cannot listen and learn.  Specifically it is a tool which, having helped redefined our sense of self, no longer leaves us open to possible/probable manipulation...wherever and whatever state of reality we are consciously involved within.

I can sum up "that which had no beginning" as God or the source. But to do so just points out that we are not discussing a new idea or pushing the boundaries of conventional thinking. This is really an age old debate.

If god created the universe, then who created God?

You say you are open to new ideas if your current line of thinking can be debunked but isn't that the same as saying you aren't? I mean no one can prove or disprove any of this.

But in a sense this thread is a simulation and you are it's creator so you certainly have a right to steer it back to your point. Which begs the question. What is your point?

Not trying to be rude but if this discussion has an endgame that you have not yet ran past us, it may help to do so.

Every time we deviate from the original concept you point us right back and knowing what your purpose is may help us help you.

Read this as if we were old friends so don't assume any harshness in my words. I like this discussion but it seems as if there may be an agenda.

Do you have a much larger theory and are just looking to see if someone can throw an idea out there to make you rethink some aspect of your theory?