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In my eyes you are a shining light towards something I have faith in; that anyone devoutly religious simply couldn't uphold their view in light of true personal consciousness exploration.

I had goose bumps when I read this. And not at all because you said something nice about me. Actually it was only because of the second clause. Because that is EXACTLY how I feel, only I did not know how to convey that feeling accurately in words.

The question I asked my self was, "How could (not why would) I be able to have these OOBE's if I was not supposed to?" That is to say that free will was not in the picture during my first two. Now if the all powerful and judgmental God did not want me to have these experiences, he could easily fix that. My previous mindset left me guilt ridden for having the experiences that allowed my faith to crack then crumble. And the internal conflict was this: Because I had experiences in which I had no control in 'entering', WHY should I feel guilty for having them.

The answer is simple. We do not have to believe in anything that we feel has been perfectly discredited in our own view.

If the color yellow makes most people feel happy but you get headache looking at it. You will never be happy so long as you have a headache. If you can get rid of the headache then keep the yellow, otherwise change the color and you'll find another one that makes you feel happy and good. 

Nothing anybody said to me could have changed the way I felt. If I had my first OOBE because I intentionally sought after it, I would have dealt with the guilt and viewed everything as a confirmation of my old beliefs. Because I had no free will in the matter, the guilt I felt was not my own. That, I have accepted.

Someone may read this and think this is much to do about nothing, but I would have to ask them if their own personal well being is not important to them; What is?

There are many roads that lead to the same place we are all headed to. And if they all lead to the same place, why not find the road we each personally enjoy?

We can't all be right and we can't all be wrong. In my mind, that makes us equal.

[why]

My two cents...

Just because certain sensations we feel can be explained in accurate scientific terms doesn't mean anything in particular. Depending on you own views, science actually compliments many things that they are intended to discredit.

Instead of being offended Steelhawk could look at what Beedeekin is saying and see it as the way 'God' gave us the ability to experience these sensations while we have physical bodies.

Just because science can prove without any doubt how something works, science does nothing to explain why it works that way. There is always another question that follows that science will never answer.

Just because certain laws of physics govern the way things are, the fact that the laws exist do not say why they exist. I'm getting redundant here.

I hate to hijack this thread with meat but I love beef, fish (all seafood that is sustainable), goat, chicken and fowl, everything but pork basically. If it has a heart beat and isn't a primate, it lingers near me at it's own peril. I love the organs as well. I need a lot of tic-tacs and breath mints.

Don't get me wrong, I love my vegetables as well but they don't satiate my hunger alone. I come from a family that celebrates every meal. I think it stems from my father's childhood. He came from a family of ten brothers and two sisters. My grandfather was a supposed piece of crap (I loved him and have nothing bad to say about him) but as the second eldest my father had to work when he was very young to support his family when hid dad went on his infidelity excursions. So I think he takes a lot of pride in being able to provide a full table of food. It's why I struggle losing twenty pounds permanently.

I completely agree with Xanth that the word demons has way too much baggage. I don't mind the saying about dealing with one's internal demons. As it accurately conveys inner conflict.


Instead of telling them that the being they encountered is real or not, I acknowledge that the fear is real. People who believe in demons in the religious sense are never going to believe they aren't real in their current mindset. So telling them they aren't real just makes them think that your in even greater danger than they are since they at least know they exist.

I think, therefor I am...very apropos in cases like these.

[FAITH]

I have met this attitude half way and no longer think any one religion is wrong.

I agree 100%. People get in the way of everything good. I actually believe that if I had not been raised a Christian, I would have found it on my own and still be one today. I arrived at the true issue, after sleeping and reflecting on Lion's comments, I reread my post. I realized that my issue was with God's human 'messengers' and not the Big Cheese personally. For many reasons, I have come to believe that the important thing is to realize that there is a God or Higher Power. And not to limit that. There are just too many religions and good people that existed on this earth before Jesus was born. I can't personally accept that they were doomed because they were unfortunately born before God could figure out an easier way to save their 'souls'.

I would feel terrible if I offended anybody's sensibilities as that was not my intentions. For example, I called AP in my post voodoo to show my ignorance as I really was.


Instead of taking the standpoint of your faith being shattered... is it not fair to also twist that into what is essentially an outsiders point of view, that the FAITH you believed in has been exposed as having many many cracks and pit-falls? That you have evolved away from and become wise to these inconsistencies? That YOU personally have nothing to be guilty about?

Excellent point. Not to play a game of semantics, but I would say your statement would be more accurate if you switch faith with religion where I put in in bold.  The two can be accurately interchanged in many different contexts.

Then I could say no...The religion is fine but my faith has been shattered in the religion as I understood it. I have to come to know God in such a different way now, that it just isn't possible for me to look past the inconsistencies that I feel have come to plague the Christian religion. Not Christ himself, he was perfect in every beautiful way in his depiction. Now maybe it might be fairer to say that my misgivings lie in the Catholic denomination specifically and not the others but the God as I understand does not fit well in any one belief system that I currently know of. I have become more reserved but certainly not wiser in where I put my faith but you did pose some questions that I must reflect on. Why do I feel that I have some crazy stuff to look forward to in the NPR?

If I had just been a Sunday warrior, then I think I could of had the same experiences and they would have concreted my faith in Christianity.

What do you all think about this. Like I said, I did not see any terrible devils or the flames of hell but I certainly thought they were coming. Why didn't they then, if thought equals what we see during OOBE's? Would you have interpreted that as a sign that my prayers were answered so that I would not have been overwhelmed further?

Not once in any of my early explorations did my ever present fear create these terrible images. When they did finally come, I was ready to quickly leave there but I certainly would not have confronted them head on like I feel I can now. This whole life is a paradox. Existence is a paradox. And I'm just starting to truly love it. I know that I may sound a little over zealous but I'm really not. I look forward to the day that my goals are to just chill out and let it all come as it does. But the pragmatic beast that I am, says to make this a personal priority first so that those days will come and I will never again have to suffer another crisis in faith. That day is just around the NPR corner. Thanks.

This is an intense topic for me and it is hard to control my rambling sometimes.

I know this is a bit long and I don't expect anybody to read it. I just wanted to thank everybody and a few individuals in particular. I wanted to get this out there so I would get past the self-imposed need to explain my curiosities and boorishly drop my bio here and there. Without names, If it speaks to you, then I am speaking to you  

I had my first spontaneous OOBE in 1998. I was a freshman in college and I had all of the normal concerns any typical 19 year old young man would have at that time. But I've always been an excessive worrier and started suffering from panic attacks when I was in high school. I didn't have any more pressures on me than most of my peers; I simply worried too much. I had a loving family. I went to church most Sundays and I was genuinely happy. Something was just missing. I was never satisfied and I'm not speaking in ungrateful terms. I had more than most to be thankful for so I used my faith to fill the void I felt.

My first OOBE was terrifying. I didn't see any nasty devils or anything like that. It was just the realization that I was of sound mind and what I believed was of a sound body, yet I was on the floor staring at my self asleep on the couch. I panicked and tried to cry out but I couldn't make a sound (thankfully). Completely ignorant to what was actually happening, I prayed as any good Catholic would. Nothing. I tried to lay on my physical body to get back "in" but nothing worked until I finally just laid on top of it and gave up. I did not over think how I could have died but in the moment I was sure of it. I decided that it was best to just wait for my escort to hell since Jesus wasn't claiming me. For a true believer like myself, this was the most emotionally painful realization I could've arrived at. It was a complete and total capitulation of my spirit. To ever feel worse than I did, I imagine it would only be through the loss of my family.

In that moment, I finally woke up. Now, I had to deal with the shame of abandoning my faith over a single "crisis". To put it simply, I cried like a child. The next morning, I awoke with vigor and a determination to redouble my Christian efforts. I prayed to Jesus and thanked him for that test and dismissed my silly "dream". But I felt a subtle sting as I prayed. It felt similar to when I was a child and I had to apologize to one of my siblings, even though I had done nothing wrong. But I had to do it or risk greater punishment from my parents. I would not admit it at the time, but a definite chink had appeared in my armor of faith.

I quickly got past that night but I never forgot it. Not once. Flash forward to the year 2000 and my second spontaneous OOBE nearly drove me mad. It was quite similar in every detail but the result was drastically different. I panicked, I cried, and I resigned myself to the hell that awaited but I didn't pray or repent. I did nothing to deserve the terror I felt. I was obviously not strong enough in my faith to endure another "test" and I was a tad pist because of it. What ever it was that I had experienced, it was no "dream" or lapse in my sanity or reasoning. But I wasn't ready to toss my soul into the coals over something that I could not explain and give up on Christianity and the "only" path to salvation.

I told my parents of what I had experienced and they reacted as any parents would I'm sure. What did I really expect them to say? In essence, I explained it the only way I knew how to at the time. I had what felt like was the worst nightmare ever imagined although I wasn't asleep. Even though I was sleeping. I didn't see or hear anything bad. Huh, that's a nightmare? I just didn't know how to explain it to them in any terms that would accurately convey why I was terrified. Thankfully, if they thought I was crazy, they didn't act like it. This was nothing that a good talk with my parish Priest couldn't take care of and off I we went.

Father Doughtery was the coolest Priest that I imagine ever walked the earth. He's in his late eighties and retired now but he can still be found in a pub every now and then. An old habit from his days back home in Irealand, I suppose. I was 20 and home for the summer so I felt like a child as we went to the church. I hung back with my dad as my mom went to find Father Doughtery and I remember my dad making a comment about how miserable Jesus looked up on the large cross that hung above the main altar. As they approached, I barely made out the words demon and Father Doughtery saying, "No, no. It's nothing like that." That pist me off. A demon? Give me a break.

I left with my Priest and we had a pretty mundane chat. He asked some embarassing questions about sex and life in general. Well, I was embarrassed, the questions and Father Doughtery felt fine. I explained to him what happened and he assured me that everything was normal. He told me that I had an OOBE and that  many people experience them at some point in their life. He was very reassuring and as I was leaving I told him that I was gonna look into all this stuff. He stopped me and told me to promise him that I wouldn't. He gave me a stern warning about messing around with the "supernatural" and all the bumps in the night that would surely follow. I should mention that Father Doughtery had been trained at the Vatican as many Priests do when they can. It was a pretty convincing warning. I promised him that I wouldn't like the good Catholic boy I was. We all left there feeling like everything was gonna be normal.

But again, I felt like something was missing. I wasn't satisfied with the little talk I had with my Priest. It would still be many years before I was ready to admit it, but there was a definite crack now, in my armor of faith. When I returned to school that fall, I looked for book's on OOBE's at my University's library. They had a few that were about OOBE's in particular but they were just case studies. I wanted to see if there was anything out there that could tell me how to have one intentionally. The only books that gave any instructions on having an OOBE were about Astral Projection. I wasn't looking for another religion. I was still a devoted Christian and I didn't want to read about any voodoo stuff like AP. After an exhausted search, I realized that it was AP or nothing. I only read about the techniques since I didn't want to be influenced by any other religious stuff.

It described a technique about summoning my this and focusing my that but it boiled down to just relaxing and slowing my mind. After about a month of no success, I had a major panic attack. Anybody who has had one knows that they are scary as heck and death is sure to follow. Every panic attack is horrible but I was almost grateful for this one (my last one too, by the way). A certain feeling fell in place for me afterwards. It was my first panic episode since I had had my last OOBE. This time, however bad as it was, I wasn't terrified while it hit me. I knew that I needed to rid myself of the guilt I was feeling for practicing what I thought was considered a religious ritual. And this was not a ritual endorsed by my savior.

I dropped all the terminology that I felt had religious overtones and substituted them with Christian "friendly" words. After another week of trying, I achieved my first OOBE with intent and awareness. I also credit my success to the fact that I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that this was possible. I just can't speak enough, about how positive it is to know something with an absolute certainty, instead of just depending on faith in the possibility of something being true.

At this point, I could tell you about all my wonderful journeys and experiences I've had in the last twelve or so years in the Astral. But the truth isn't like that. I was still a Christian and just because I felt good about what I had achieved, it didn't mean that I didn't feel guilty. After all, I was committing some serious offenses against my eternal salvation. If something horrible happened and I didn't have time to repent; my short lifetime of just trying to be a good person wouldn't even buy me a glimpse of the pearly gates. Much less, a pass to walk though them. So, I tipped-toed my way through the astral, yet I still had some very powerful experiences that I learned a lot from. And I'll admit that I perceived some of those experiences as a validation of my Christian faith. But something was still missing.

After a rough 2012 and some amazing synchronicity in all it's NPR glory, flash forward to 2013. Hello, Astral Pulse and good-bye to my Christian armor of faith. It was getting heavier and was falling to pieces at the same time. I asked some dumb questions and some intelligent folks answered them. Nobody cared if I was religious and nobody forced any opinions on me. I was sick of worrying and feeling guilty that being a good person, a kind and caring person, wasn't good enough for a positive afterlife. An afterlife, that religion told me depended on faith. Well I was tired of faith when I just didn't need it anymore. What use is it when you just know? I know that I have a lot of work to do in this life and in the next and I no longer fear it [as much].

Now, I'm not preaching to anybody. I'm not advocating that anybody change the way they feel. If your religion feels right to you and you're a better person because of it;Then I believe that is a beautiful thing. I don't know what to think about God anymore. Right now, I'm comfortable in knowing that there is a purpose to this life other than filling a box at the end of it. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I can make it on my own or without the help of a higher power. I just don't want to limit that higher power to only loving and caring for a few people who happen to think they are the only ones deserving of a better life after this one. I'll always be open-minded but right now, nothing seems to be missing and I am most satisfied with the little I do know. Thank you Astral Pulse.

when I first looked at the format you used, I thought it was confusing. But as I started reading it, I came to the belief that it is one of the most handy formats to read through. Since you covered a lot of information and didn't want to repeat yourself too often, this format works perfectly. You did some tedious work that makes it virtually impossible to lose your place if the need to reference another section arises. That's great.

The English is not perfect but It's better than 90 percent of most writers who speak and write English as their first language. But I'm American and I suppose the Brits might have a word or two about what I consider proper English grammar. The spelling was excellent and the few grammar errors are consistent and it's easy to read right past them with nothing lost in translation.

In the past 12 years, I haven't read a single text in it's entirety concerning OOBE's and this one is so easy to navigate and isn't preachy; I'm gonna give it a try. Thanks.

I tried this and I have to say that this may be what I have been looking for. I have been looking for a method that puts me in to the RTZ consistently. These are the OOBE's that I have the least of my physical senses but my awareness of the reality is identical to this one.

But alas, I have the same problem with the short duration. I know they are so short because I enter the RTZ and leave it with the same awareness of time passing. In other words, I lay down at 10 pm and think 15 minutes have passed until I phase. I feel as if I phased for a couple of minutes and when it's over, I check the clock, I'm never far off. My lack of sight vision is not a problem yet in these type's of OOBE's because I just instinctively know my surroundings. Usually it's my room but it has been other real places here. In fact, it's never even a concern in the moment though I am aware of it.

edit: I should say that I'm not quite sure what my energy body is but I just visualize myself standing next to my bed. I did this successfully twice last night. I attempted to visualize myself next to someone elses bed , but was not able to. My intentions were most honorable (in less than honorable minds anyhow).

I watched an interesting show the other night called "Dark Matters". In it, they dramatize some true events that are bizarre but are none the less considered true. The show depicted the story of George Price, whom at the time was an Atheist. He was an amateur mathematician who worked out a theorem that proves that altruism is an evolutionary trait that helps insure that one's genes are passed on and is therefor selfish by design.

I understand the concept but not the theorem. To be considered a theorem, it must always be true in all examples given. Even in hypothetical examples.

Here is a wiki link to the theorem:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_equation

If anybody can explain this to me in layman's terms, I would be grateful. I have a healthy understanding of algebra and geometry but this is beyond me.

I will watch the video but I don't have the time to just yet. So my statement may be completely ignorant of what you're referring to but I think it's in the same ball park. I read a year or so ago that the technology exists for nuclear fission (there are already a few cases where average Einsteins have built fission reactors at home) but one problem is finding the right elements in ample supply. I believe that many are looking to Helium 3 but the largest source is in moon rock's and isn't yet economical. Does this ring true with you?

Also, the jerk in me want's to say that the anomaly you are referring to is the world's major powers just getting the heck out of the way and letting it happen.

Maybe I was thinking about Art Bell then. When it comes to the show's topics, I generally view that as addressing fear. Since many show's will have guests that contradict another, sometimes in the same week, I suppose that means they are open to other ideas.

The exploitation of fear comes into play when they don't question their guests accounts and let it go on as absolute fact. I think George is pretty fair in that aspect since it would be hard to get other guests if he was a total terd.

I listened to a show last night that was a few days old. Their guest was a lading who claims she has been automatic scribing with a NP being that she calls Jarrod for fourty years. Jarrod supposedly has a "day job" working for "The Source", which is what he considers to be God. And God is everything (us too).

His job entails keeping track of knowledge in what I guess is the equivalent of the akashaic (sp?) records. However, he only has access to certain knowledge and not all. The host asked some good questions thatt seemed a little rude but he was only trying to play the skeptic. I'm not sure if he is though but it's an interesting format.

Anyways, she gave some detail on what she claims is Jarrod's description of the afterlife. Basically the body dies but the spirit energy lives for eternity. Jarrod himself as had many physical lifetimes in other bodies that were for sure not human but I never determined that he was ever a human. He says that good and evil is only subjective ideology and therefor does not really exist. There are however, energies that we would call negative and have not found the way to evolve higher.

One last interesting thing about the afterlife. This explained to me why atheists who have had NDE's come back devout Christians (these types made some of the strongest testaments that kept me Christian for so long). Jarrod says that when someone dies and they had no belief in an afterlife, they are the most shocked to see what they know is their dead body yet they are more aware than ever that they still exist in some form. They will instantly think that since they still exist, that the Christians were right all along, and they then create some of the worse hells imaginable, which is what they would expect was a worthy punishment for a vocal nonbeliever such as they were.

I researched the author after the show since it was mostly a promotion for her new book and I may have got some of the info from a different source, other than the show but It's all from her. This lines up more sensibly with how I'm starting to view All. But, as always, I have my emergency Jesus panic button for a backup.

Lol... I will be "tangental Ted" again, and say this immediately made me think of Springsteen's song and album "Darkness on the Edge of Town" about needing to live on the fringe of society, to do things society may not be proud of... sort of like this projection stuff, haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0ekQBmzKs

That's the name of their show and now I'm positive they got it from the Boss. Though it hadn't occured to me until you mentioned the connection.

I basically went a bit multiple personality, & had an argument with myself about how pointless, stupid & possibly not true my original comment was, so I edited it to clear it up a bit, then I just deleted it all. I was having a bit of a 'moment'. Sorry!

I'm positive that I read your original comment, though I don't remember it, I certainly wasn't as confused as I was when I read your edit.

My bad on george noory. He's only been this show's guest once and it was their best. The company that owns them has had him as a guest on their other shows but just once on this specifically. But I hear you on the demon stuff but I guess that brings the money and the ratings. But I'm big into UFO's and they deal with that a lot as well. They chit chat for about 4-5 minutes then get to the meat.

Really?
I've probably listened to about fifty of their podcasts and thought they were quite benign in their approach. In fact, I came to the belief that the name of their radio show and their intro into it was a spoof on peoples fear and not an exploit of. But I have no personal stake in promoting them. If you ever get bored though, they have several shows with George as their guest. Those are their most boring shows with the exception of one possibly being their best. If you're ever interested, I'll see if I can locate that one. It should be easy the way they're formatted.

Hey guys, I wanted to give you all the address to another paranormal talk show. It's out of Minneapolis and it's on three nights a week, I believe. But the cool thing is that all of their shows are archived and you can listen to them with all the commercials edited out. www.darknessradio.com

They do have some A-list guests in the paranormal circle. Many of their shows are OOBE related. Listen and tell me what you think.  Their show format is two hours long but they archive them in one hour sessions.

edit: every weeknight

Since George himself is into AP, you have to wonder. But right now he's more into promoting his show and not necessarily his own beliefs. The almighty dollar does speak in a loud voice.

Yes you did. I always felt more comfortable calling them out of body experiences. Have you been trying to AP? If not, then this was a spontaneous occurrence. And it's the way I was "introduced" to this about 12 years ago. But believe me, I'm only just now learning.

The woman's voice- That could have been a hallucination, a projection from your consciousness, or possibly a real being, like a guardian. I hope it wasn't the boogieman (unless you like to dance) and I doubt it was the bogeyman. Just relax and embrace this. There's a ton of info on this forum that should be able to put your mind at ease.

Good luck and stick around.

Oh, and don't let my username deter you. It's short for none of it's bad.   

It's 'doth'... 'Dost' is a second person singular present tense of the word "do"... You mean 'Doth' 

So it's reading as "Xanth do speaks only his own truth"

"Xanth doth speaketh his own truth only" is a fair early english way of saying it.

"Thy dost doeth that" - "I do do that"

"he doth doeth that" - "He does do that"

"Thou doth doeth that, thou dost" - "You do do that, you do"

OK... baaaack on topic.

Can we still get partial credit?

I have to agree entirely with Beedeekin.

I have never once had a negative entity confront or follow me. And for a long time, that was one of my BIGGEST fears. Considering my background, I not only believed it was possible, I thought it was probable. If anybody should have had this happen, it was me. Now pardon me, while I throw some salt over my left shoulder, spin clockwise ten times starting from a north facing position, spit through my fingers while they form an X, and so forth. Silly, right?

Don't get me wrong. I have been scared plenty of times, even recently, but I do not let my fear become irrational in the moment(says the guy who was let fear hold him back for over 12 years). Whether these negative entities are real or not, they are real to us during our experiences. I promise if you believe they can not harm you then they can't.

Scratching and itching.. dry tongue or swallowing spit was never a problem for me because I didn't see that as a concern.

Exactly.

I didn't have any preconceptions or any kind of idea about what was happening at first. The very little that I did know was all mumble-jumble bullsh1t, but I didn't let that influence me too much or I wouldn't have tried it at all. I did a tiny (miniscule) amount of research after my first spontaneous OOBE's to see if I could achieve one intentionally. The only reason I didn't get more in-depth earlier was because of my old belief system.

I never viewed it as anything other than trying to get into that sleep state with my awareness. When sleep is the goal, everybody rolls over, scratches their butt, swallows their spit as many times as it takes until they get to sleep and never thinks twice.

But call the same process meditating and the mind goes crazy.

edit:I should stop making ignorant statements about mediating and give it a real try. I just always assume that what I was doing was in a way meditating but I mainly viewed it as getting ready to phase. And if not, then sleep.

Does true meditation not have a goal other than to clear your mind?

Thanks man i shall do my best ...do you have any tips on acknowledging you are present in a lucid dream. Also in response to astral projecting on your back..my only astral projection which was successful where i floated out my body was on my side after riding out SP.

I think the very act of consciously trying to AP is enough to gain your awareness during a dream. With that said, I have come across some really good info on this site. I'll give you the premise but I suggest you do the research. I'm not being a jerk. I think that the more we consciously do to learn something, the more our "subconscious" knows it has some work to do. And work it will.

Do dream checks. A dream check is done while your awake. It's like the idea of tying a string around your finger to remember something, every time you look at the string you remember what it is you don't want to forget.

Also another member, LionHeart, pointed out to me that some of the weird things in our dreams, like when Uncle Bob is real but the person playing him in our dreams is someone else, are there to help us. We usually take notice of that but move on anyways in the dream. He said those are things that help us to catch awareness. He's right in my case anyhow.

Keep trying, you'll get there.

I agree with everybody but what Xanth says will help us get over the need to even deploy the other tactics to conquer fear. There's no need to use white light to banish fear if we are able to banish the fear itself. But to that, I say good luck to all.

Classic OBE. But yep, sorta hits on the point I've been trying to make here. It's an amazing experience and worth it to develop but it's most likely all in your own mind. Ergo you move stuff in your OBE and see it move, and when you return to "real life" it's not moved.

Sorry guys.

Also, what you view as proof that OOBE's are only in our minds, I view as proof that the objects we moved in the non physical were only moved in the non physical.

I'm not picking a fight, on the contrary. You may say something that makes "the penny drop" for me. And for that, I would be truly grateful. And I agree with Beedeekin, so long as we speak what we know to be true for us, there's no need to apologize.