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Yes, I think it goes along with something I posted somewhere regarding types of information inputs avaliable to the subconscious in contrast with the sensory limitations of the conscious mind. But I think there can be influence from other forms of conscience, and only the subconscious can capture those. I don't think it's your subconscious alone talking - it's colored by influences from other forms of conscience it can perceive.

Don't misunderstand me.  I didn't mean to imply that your subconscious is closed off.  I would suspect that it interacts with a greater amalgam of consciousness.

Bilocation was a common experience in Christian culture.

Usually it described when a "saintly" figure was known to be in one place, but was seen in another.

So the idea is that the person projected to another place and had so much energy there that they were visible to the people in the physical.

I haven't heard that one before.

it doesn't matter.  one way or another this ship is goin down!!  WOO!!!

oh noes.. 

It's not really any different than using a pendulum.

The pendulum is moved by micro muscle movements in the hand that are stimulated in the brain by the subconscious (higher self, astral self, whatever).  You're not invoking an entity into the board, like any form of divination, you are simply providing a user interface to your intuition.  No harm done.

Astral Projection is often considered to be a psychic ability.

In hindsight, I wish that I would have been taught these "magical" traditions first.  I learned the practical methods that do away with "complicated symbolism", but they allowed me to skip valuable steps.  And I think that your tone expresses my idea perfectly.  You think that magical practice is unnecessarily fluffed up, too much complication for something that is so easy.  (i'm not assuming to know your complete opinion of the subject, just going off your last post.  i know you possess more depth than this one post)  I, on the other hand, view these ritual practices as more comprehensive measures.  You learn in a progressive way the invaluable skills that accompany projection and it's related subjects.  For example, you learn a dedicated visualization experience.  I remember Robert Bruce's big kick being that he understood some people are bad at visualization so he created an alternative.  I say hogwash, it's not that people are bad at visualization, its that they never put in the time and discipline to cultivate the skill (of course I'm excluding the blind people Bruce talks about).  And this is the epitome of what I'm expressing.  So many people think that the old ways were inefficient and unnecessary and so they developed techniques that circumvent the process of connecting with the "otherworlds" and try to jump straight into the pinnacle of the achievement (perceived body separation into the other worlds). 

So it sounds to me like you'd rather see ill prepared students just jump right in.  That's like saying to someone, "No you don't need a learner's permit, you don't need driver's education, just watch me drive around a bit using MY personal technique that i've put a couple years into developing and then we'll just give you your license". 

I'll add more later.

Morality shmorality.  And PUL shmeeUL.

Its not about "karma", its about how limited you've allowed your perception to become.

You know that you can pass through walls but that doesn't mean you believe you can.

I had this problem a lot.  I once tried to jump into a mirror.  I got a running start, jumped and SMACK!  I hit the mirror and bounced off.  On another occasion I was in an odd house that didn't look like my parents' house but I felt that it was.  I kept trying to jump through the front door but I kept bouncing off.  Just when I started getting frustrated I heard a disembodied voice say, "do you really believe you can pass through solid objects?  I don't think you do.  Try closing your eyes, then you'll never see it coming."  So, I tried again, this time closing my eyes, and before I knew it I was outside.  Give that a try, close your eyes, forget about the solidity of the object and jump.  After you do it enough, after you've convinced yourself completely, then you shouldn't have any trouble passing through objects at your leisure.

I too have always had difficulty leaving my immediate surroundings (my house, community, etc.)

Anytime I would try to go to the moon or a star I would fly straight up and be pulled back to the ground, like I had elastic pulling me back to the ground.  Then the AP would fade and I would be back in my body.

I have never been able to stop it.

fair enough

Oh please, he didn't destroy anything. All of that stuff still exists. It's actually more available to the public than ever, where it was hidden for a long time, strictly for initiates.

Monroe offered a path available for EVERYONE from just about any walk of life, not just a select few.

I know, I was just being dramatic.

GET HIM!

I too find many traditions tedious, maybe even unnecessary.  But my personal beliefs aren't really the point.

My point is only that there is value in what people often label as superstition because they are unaware.

That's all.

But, since this is of no interest to you Nay, then this post isn't for you. 

As an addendum to this post I'd like to say that through my recent research into magical traditions I have learned that all of the "new" ideas presented by Bruce, Monroe, Kepple, etc. aren't even remotely new, novel or unique.  They are regurgitated techniques thrust upon people who know little about the origins and use of astral projection. 

This is part of the reason that I seem to have a "stand-offish" attitude towards people who assert that we should be infinitely grateful to people like Monroe and Kepple.  I don't deny that they brought the occult to people who might otherwise have never learned such things.  But in the same breath it should be understood that the "Old Ways" were done the way they were for a reason.  It was about creating a different reality in your mind.  A new, mystical place, separate from our mundane lives.  These old techniques utilized what were new findings at the time in order to condition the ego/brain to respond in a particular way to ritual. 

When the glorious Monroe decided that he would strip away all the ritual from occult practice, not only was he crapping all over something "sacred", he was also making it much less effective.  And to be honest, monroe didn't do much but put an arbitrary and subjective spin on something that worked well as long as you weren't a closed minded religious zealot.  People say that Monroe brought AP out of the occult and into the mainstream, but plenty of occultists were authoring tons of books about the "secret" teachings of their groups around the same time Monroe was "opening our eyes".  The information was there for anyone, Monroe just sold his reality to people who didn't know any better.  And he's still doing it from beyond the grave.  LoL.  Frank is guilty by association.  He didn't know any of the history of AP.  He knew he could do it and he knew that what he did was similar to Monroe.  Whatever came out of that was his subjective experience.  As for Bruce.....well.....whatever.  Bruce is Bruce.

Don't misunderstand my criticism.  I learned about Monroe and Bruce long before I learned of their occultist predecessors and I appreciate them for that.  But while I recognize their achievements, I also recognize that they watered down something that once held great power.  They were in such an uproar to start something new that they neglected simple truths about humans.  We are symbolic and metaphoric creatures.  Everything we know and do is somehow symbolic of the ineffable and I feel like the modern AP authors have lost sight of that.  You can certainly still find plenty of good authors out there that teach how much more complex and infinite the experience of the nonphysical can be.  I might recommend some authors like Donald Tyson, Nick Farrell, Diana Paxson, Bruce Goldberg, etc. 

Once you take the magic out of AP it becomes just that, magicless.  The pursuit of the mystery is what makes exploring the nonphysical and consciousness so fulfilling.  So, my point here is that while we want to be sophisticated explorers who have no need for silly rituals, a good humble look at the history of excursions into the otherworlds can bring revelations beyond anything you can imagine.

I know that this forum is an Astral Projection forum and while topics like magic have their own forum, they are still not really considered to be a topic that we collectively have much knowledge of.  Because of this attitude, I think magic gets a bad wrap around here.  It seems to me that many members of this forum have become "metaphysically" stagnant in regards to understanding the uses of particular traditions.  With this in mind, I would like to explain a few things about magic so that you will all understand that magic isn't a silly superstition that has no bearing on astral projection.

For starters, magic is primarily an astral activity.

Any time a magical ritual is performed, it is performed on the astral.  There are physical symbols used for astral tools and energies, but those symbols are only in place as assistance in creating their astral counterparts. 

Nearly all magical techniques involved interaction with the astral in some form.  Whether that is active imagination (astral viewing, like scrying or remote viewing, but most notable on this forum, PHASING!, yes phasing is active imagination, not astral projection), astral projection (the sensation of separating from one's body, even if that isn't actually happening), or simply powerful intention, all ritual is being performed on the astral level. 

Initiation into magical or occult groups is done on an astral level.  Many famous members of occult groups have said that they were visited astrally by existing members as a form of initiation.  In these cases they were observed energetically and were even sometimes put through "trials".  When someone was actually chosen they went through initiation rituals, which at least on the part of the initiators, took place in the astral.  Initiates would often be programmed with powerful symbolism that the particular group used for astral work.

The ultimate goal of magical practice is not necessarily to control physical reality by means of archaic ritual.  Usually the goal was, self-knowledge, healing and what people might call enlightenment or rather mastery of their reality.  For normal folks who don't involve themselves in these types of things, the symbols of magical practice seem inert and boring.  But, through astral experiences, an initiate explores these symbols on a level where waking consciousness is subdued and something deeper gets a crack at it.  You discover worlds of meaning behind apparently benign symbols.

Everything else about magic aside (all of the superstition, the misunderstandings, remnants of inquisition and witch hunting, the fear and pretensions), magical practice is basically a practice that actively engages the participant in both the physical and nonphysical as a means of opening the connection between the two worlds and allowing open communication between the two.  That's it. 

Anyone having difficulty with astral projection might do well to investigate some magical traditions.  You might be surprised at how relevant it is to projection.  I sure was.

your nickname is awfully presumptuous, perhaps even a bit conceited. 

did god ok that?

you're letting yourself stay too awake.

narrow your consciousness down to a point, like you're barely there.

Welcome

Welcome

i don't believe the moon belongs here, but way to go CFT.  I was saying the same things to myself as I was reading that post.

i know you know.  i was perpetuating the joke by insisting that you didn't know.

i'm just kidding, that doesn't even make sense.

How are we killing the thread? It is about the creation of the earth is it not?

Yea, it is.  The moon topic just has to potential spin off into uncharted territory and I didn't want that to happen to jan019's thread.

No no, he means fall BACK asleep. 

you use these sleep timers by waking yourself up a couple hours early in the morning and then turning on the alarm track and go back to sleep.  if you don't get up, just roll over, turn on the track and go back to sleep you can be asleep in a couple minutes.