Messages

Sorry for the late response. First of all, I would not deny the fact that there is illiteracy in the Muslim world but I won't deny that illiteracy is everywhere.... But you also cannot deny the fact that illiteracy rate in the Christian world is very much evident as well! Look at South America!!! Besides this fact, what you are saying is that I myself am stupid because I believe in such verses which I find absolutely insulting !!! Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming, and you have safely concluded that Muslims are stupid?  First of all, Literacy does not mean one is stupid. The prophet Muhammed was illiterate but by his actions dealings and justly the way he acted made him seem smarter then the average man! you wanna know whats funny? Considering the fact that any blind little child can pick up a bible and spot the errors!! Do you not think that is stupid? I mean have you even read the bible yourself brother? Considering what you have shown me you have either not read your own scripture OR simply are a hypocrite in your own words. Remember, I'm still being patient for a response on the scientific errors in the bible, or let em guess you don't believe in those verses?

Ok here we go again.  let me try once more Jeehad. First of all let me assure you that I do not think you are stupid, nor do I think that Muslims are stupid. What I said was that they are illiterate and possibly ignorant. Now granted there are educated Muslims worldwide but the masses of Muslims the overwhelming majority are not. Because of this illiteracy they are easily controlled and manipulated by their leaders. The illiterate, as a rule are!. Since they do not have the faculties or the education or even information available, to sift the various claims they are being served by their clergy, they have to choose who they BELIEVE. Socially it is understandable, that they do not trust the west, and the information emerging from the west in regards to science and what have you, is more often than not seen as propaganda. They have been taught that the west is an enemy of Islam and they believe it. The result is that they are on numerous occasions stirred into a rage, against infidels who they are told, are trying to attack their sacred beliefs. This is the sad consequence of such illiteracy and it is observed all over the world, most recent in the case of the Muhammad drawings. I happen to be a close personal friend of one of the artists that drew these pictures, and he is presently living in hiding, having had several attempts on his life, by such overly zealous believers. Is that acceptable to you?

You seem to imply that this is the same in Christianity but if you look closer it is not the case.

You say  :

Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming

well I did and conclude that you either do not know how the world looks or don't care. The literacy rate of the Muslims in the Mideast is NOT well above average, it may be slightly above the average for Muslim countries, but as I showed you below it is vastly below the world literacy rate and that of the Christian world. THIS WAS WHAT WE DISCUSSED?. You also claim that the Islamic population in Europe and North America is overwhelming. Well  I don't know how tell you this but it is not true, where do you draw this fact . It is wrong. The Islamic population in Europe is marginal, around 6% and in North America it is a meager 1.4%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Making statements like this is either a sign that you do not want to know reality or simply do not believe it, if that is the case we cannot even discuss this.

Besides this glaring discrepancy, you seem to make a point of bringing into question the Bible, almost continually. This seem to stem from the fact that you have been taught, that the Koran is Superior to the Bible, but this has up to now not had any part in the discussion except when you have brought it to the table. Let me just state categorically that the very fact that Christians are as a body or group educated, has facilitated the spread of a Beliefystem built on FAITH in Jesus and not faith in the leadership in our countries who claim to be Christian. As a group Christians have accepted that the Bible (OT)contains a vast array of stories and allegories and wishful thinking, not to be taken literally but to be seen as a allegory. Even the NT is suspect in part. We as a body do not believe it is our duty to defeat people who think differently than we do. We are not easily whipped into a frenzy by Fundamentalists who endorse violence. These Fundies most of whom live in the USA are marginal.

This is where we differ. We have chosen to live and model our lives after Jesus as he is described in the New Testament. We believe in non-violence tolerance, and most assuredly in Love. Even loving your fellow man who may be Hindu Buddist or even Muslim. Ours is not a war of the physical dimension but a spiritual war, a war to help those who suffer, and bring peace to those who are in turmoil. To bring equal opportunity and equality to the ones we meet be it in our own countries or elsewhere. Untold thousands of Christian charities are actively engaged in this effort and everywhere you will find them. They do not only help and aid Christians but everyone. As I have told you I myself have worked in this field for 30 years and not once have I favored those of my own faith, and my life is very small, thousands are engaged in such activities worldwide.

Regarding the scientific statements let me first ask you a question. If the Koran is proved wrong in one statement would that suffice you. If it is proven that even one claim in the Koran is incorrect it would indicate that all of it could be. Do we share this opinion?

Let me know

Regards Mustardseed 

Dear Jeehad
I realise that our discussion has gone on too long. I have already adressed the issues you refer to, but you have rejected my line of argument as being absurd. I therefor concede that we simply do not agree and can no longer in earnest discuss the subject.

Regards Mustardseed

In case you missed this post, it was intended for Novice consider this article

Status of Muslim Societies around the World
Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,
(Retd.  Scientist (Deputy Director), National Botanical Research Institute, Lucknow)
Address: C / 3-2 Shahid Apartments, Golaganj, Lucknow - 226 018
Tel. : 0522-2610683 Email: mihfarooqi@satyam.net.in

There was a time when Islamic Civilization was considered to be the most advanced, tolerant and progressive Civilization in the world. This was mainly because of their accomplishments in practically all the disciplines of knowledge. After 16th century AD, the situation changed drastically. Learning and inquiry was no more the motto of the Muslims with the result that today they occupy the lowest position in the ladder of the world. They are educationally backward, scientifically marginal, politically insignificant and economically poor. This is the present status of the entire Ummah amongst the comity of nations.

Some years back, a well-known economist, Dr Kenneth David, presented World Bank Survey of 1980, on the educational and economic status of religious societies of the world in his book entitled "The Cultural Environment of International Business". UNDP in 1996 also presented an exhaustive status report of UN Member counties. Since then Human Development Index reports are being issued every year for about one hundred and seventy countries. These important documents are highly revealing since they   describe living conditions of all the religious societies i.e. Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, tribal religions and Muslims as well as non-religious communist society. According to these studies, Christian society is the most advanced society of the world with regard to education, health and economic wealth whereas Muslim society is the most backward on these counts. Based on the reports by David and UNDP, disparities of the status of Muslim and Christian societies are being given in the present paper.

According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.

Education is directly related with the economy of any society; higher the education, better the economic growth. According to Kenneth half of the Muslim population (about 1.3billion), had the per capita GDP of $ 200, whereas very few Muslim countries including oil-producing nations had the per capita income of $1000 or more. As compared to this, more than half of the Christian population had an income (per capita GDP) of $7000, and the average was around $3000.This was all about the status of the Muslim and the Christian world in 80's. After 1980, world's economic order was raised to great heights. According to UNDP report of 1999, economy of European countries advanced to the extent that their per capita income was raised to about $ 25,000 and the rest of the Christian countries saw a rise up to $10,000. In comparison with this rise of economic status of the western countries, Muslim countries lagged far behind and their average per capita GDP advanced to hardly a thousand dollars. Only few oil producing countries could manage an average per capita GNP of $5000 or more. But they constitute hardly ten per cent of the entire Muslim population. It may be stated here that as per the report in OIL AND GAS GENERAL (1998), out of 18 oil-producing countries, 10 are Muslim nations, producing 40% of the world's total petrol production. In spite of this God's gift, Muslim society is economically much weaker than the Christian society

The reports suggest that after 1980 Muslim countries could not compete with the western world in the field of economic growth. The main reason for this unfortunate situation was their rivalries amongst themselves resulting in very high expenditure on their respective defence budgets. For instance, Saudi Arabia's per capita income in 1980 was $ 7,690, which dropped to $ 7,040 in 1996 mainly because of the Iraq-Kuwait conflict. Likewise, income of Iran, Iraq and Libya (all oil producing countries) also dropped considerably. As against this dismal position, per capita income of Germany advanced from  $9,580 in 1980 to $      28,870 in 1996. Per capita incomes of Britain, France and Australia etc similarly improved tremendously.

After the Second World War, almost all the countries of the world have been busy in increasing their military capabilities. Muslim nations, inspite of the poverty of their people are also involved in this mad race for military might. They have large trained armies, which are estimated to be 100million. This is one third of the total world armed forces. After the Second World War, there has not been any major Christian-Muslim armed conflict, except the recent Iraq and Afghanistan crises but there have been several bloody wars amongst Muslim nations themselves in which millions have lost their lives.

Muslim nations spend 10-30% of their GDP towards purchasing sophisticated and deadly arms and ammunitions from the West. On the other hand, western nations spend about 10% of their wealth on their arms procurement, which is carried out within the Christian world.

According to Kenneth, there are several factors for the backwardness of the Muslim society. First and foremost is their illiteracy in general and women illiteracy in particular. Another major reason of Muslim fall is the fact that hardly 16% of population is involved in industrial production. It is important to note that 60% of Christian population is engaged in industry. High population growth is another major factor for Muslim backwardness because this rapid population rise neutralizes whatever economic development takes place in Muslim Societies. Human Development Index prepared by UNDP gives a very dismal picture of the status of literacy, health and economy of Muslim nations. In the first 25 best countries listed under HDI (2002), no Muslim country figured in the list. Barring few small oil producing Muslim nations, majority of the Islamic world lies in the middle and low categories of human development, a clear indication that the Islamic nations needs to increase their focus on human development. Latest data (2002) about the Human Development Index (HDI) and Per capita GDP of some of the important and large populated Muslim countries are as follows;

                          HDI             Income
                                         (Per Capita)

Indonesia:       112                    850$
(Population 210 M)         

Bangladesh:                              139                    350$
(150 M)       

Pakistan,         144                    500$
(1300 M)

India                 127                    500$
(I Billion, Muslims, 140 M)

Egypt:               120                  1200$
(70 M)

Turkey               96                  2700$
(65 M)                   

Iran                   106                 $1,600
(70 M)

S. Arabia            73                 $9,000
(22 M)               

Malaysia            58                 $4,000
(25 M)

Sudan              138                    $450
(30 M)

Nigeria             152                    $350
(120 M)

Libya                  61                 $7,000
(6 M)                       

Morocco          126                 $1,300
(30 M)

Afghanistan    145                    $300
(24 M)             

Iraq                     74                 $5,500
(2.5 M)

Tunisia              91                 $2,000
(10 M)

Syria                 110                 $1,300
(15 M) 

Algeria               73                $1,700
(30 M)

It may be stated that the few Muslim countries, which do figure between 25 to 50 HDI, are Brunei, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Bahrain and Qatar.  Their per capita GDP is also comparatively higher i.e. between 10,000 to 15,000 dollars but combined population of all these Muslim countries is hardly 30 millions. One must bear in mind that total GDP of all the Arab oil producing counties (12 in numbers) is less than the GDP of Spain alone. Ironically Muslim Spain during Middle Ages had higher revenue (because of the industrial products like Textile, Paper, mineral etc) than the whole of the Christian Europe (eleventh Century AD). Today Germany alone has a GDP of 3 thousand Billion Dollars that is almost twice of the entire Muslim World. Per capita GDP of major Christian countries is also staggering. A few examples with higher Human Development Index (HDI) and per capita incomes are as below:

                          HDI             Income
                                         (Per Capita)

USA                      7               37,000$
(270M)

Germany           18               25,000$
(90M)

UK                       13               $25,000
(60M)

France,              17               $25,000
(60M)

Canada                8               $26,000
(30M)

Italy                    21               $20,000
(60M)

Spain                  19               $17,000
(40M)

Netherlands       5               $26,000
(15M)

Denmark           11               $31,000
(5M)

Austria              16                $25,000
(6M)

Sweden,             3                $26,000
(10M)

Switzerland      10               $41,000
(7M)

Norway                1               $40,000
(5M)

Belgium               6               $24,000
(10M)

Russia               63                  $2,400
(150M)

Scientific achievement of the Muslim society  cannot be considered to be of any consequence. Out of the total of 2,60,000 articles published every year on scientific research, hardly 2,500 i.e. about 1% are published in Muslim countries. One can be reminded that during Middle Ages the situation was entirely different. According to European authors of History of Science almost ninety percent of scientific literature during Middle Ages was published (in Arabic) by Muslims of Spain, Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc.

There are many other parameters, which show the backwardness of Muslim Societies in scientific field. For instance, total number of Science Ph.D.'s produced by about 450 Universities of Muslim Countries every year is less than 500, whereas in UK alone this number is 3000. According to one estimate total strength of Engineers and Scientist in Muslim world (1.30billion) is less than the scientists and engineers working in France alone  (population 60million).

Well known Islamic thinker Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, once said while addressing Muslims at a Seminar,   " "You have spent several nights of indifference (Urdu-ghaflat) and complacency (Urdu-sarshari). For God's sake, get up now and see how much the sun has risen and how far your co-travelers (non-Muslims) have gone ahead of you".In the same seminar Maulana also said, '"after 16th Century, the situation of knowledge (Scientific) in Muslim and Christian societies changed completely. Now Christians started following Muslims way of progressive thinking and enquiry whereas Muslims copied Christian's way of life of Middle Ages that was full of superstition, bigotry and retrograde thoughts".

Maulana Rabey Hasan Nadvi, Rector of Nadva Islamic  University, Lucknow, also once wrote,  "Europe (West) became the leader of the world by working hard and following the path of scientific pursuit. On the other hand we (the Muslims) became indifferent towards knowledge and lost leadership of the nations".

According to Kenneth, practically every society of the world put hindrances (in the name of religion) in scientific development during 19th and 20th Century. Buddhists Priests opposed fast changing social order. Conflicts between Catholics and Protestants were the causes for slowing development in Europe. Caste differences among Hindus were reflected in the slow growth of their society. Sectarian hatred and too much interference of religious leaders (clerics) put difficulties in proper development of Muslims nations. In this regards David Kenneth says 'the way of life (standard of living) in Muslim countries cannot be altered unless the priests (Ulema) are favourable to proposed changes."

Kenneth further elaborates that Muslim Ulema , generally ignorant of the rapid development of Science and technology in  Western Nations and their high standard of living, consider the poor economic condition of the Ummah (Muslim society) to be the Divine Will. This is definitely unIslamic way of thinking. It was in this context that prominent Islamic scholars, like Afghani and Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, remarked, "Ulema ignorant of modern knowledge can not serve the Ummah". Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadvi, Founder Member of Rabita al-alam al-Islami (Muslim World League), also expressed his anguish over Muslim's indifference towards modern knowledge by saying, "Muslims forgot their own scientific way of thinking and followed only traditional knowledge. They therefore lagged behind in Science and Technology and thus became slaves of the scientifically advanced West". Mahathir Mohammad, Prime Minister of Malaysia also declared during the Islamic Conference in Kuala Lumpur recently that, " it is necessary for Muslims to give up their illogical beliefs and regressing thoughts and be prepared to face the challenges of the fast changing social order." He also cautioned, (at a meeting in London) ".our present  predicament is not pre-ordained by Allah.It is entirely due to our own doing. We rely merely on praying to Allah for help when Allah has said in the Quran that we have to help ourselves before He will help us. To ward off attacks on us, we must learn science and technology and consider acquiring modern knowledge as the part of  ibadah" If the Muslim Societies around the world do not heed the advice of Mahathir, they are then doomed. Long back Philosopher- Poet Iqbal had rightly said ' "Teri barbadiyon ke mashware hain aasmanon mein" (There are clear indications (planning) in the sky of your fall from grace'. (If you do not realize the importance of necessary change)

Hi Novice

Well at least there is something we agree on. I am totally in agreement with you regarding the oppression of the USA and its horrible wars. I do not see that on a political level one should be denied the right to retaliate and actually champion the cause of the oppressed be they Palestinian or otherwise. This is however not the issue we were discussing at all.

We were discussing the difference of the Koran and the Bible. The life of Muhammad and the Life of Jesus. We were discussing whether the Koran promotes and justifies violence. As far as I can see you have confirmed this. Whether violence is justifiable or not is a separate discussion. The Koran as you so clearly state believes in swift retaliation and promotes violence as a means of Holy war (war sanctioned by Allah) and the verses I quoted as well as your own statements are very clear.  I think you yourself has proved this point.

As far as my previous statement that the masses of Muslims are illiterate or poorly educated and therefore easy to stir into a religious fervor, using the Koran is also quite evident. It is a fact, that the masses of Muslims fly off the handle if anyone offends them. They kill and justify killing if their Koran is soiled, and go into a rage if it is made fun off. In short they are volatile and easily incited to violence , because of their RELIGION as well as their ignorance, and pride. 

Violence is an accepted part of life in Muslim countries honor killings revenge etc and you know that. The reason this is accepted is that it is sanctioned in the Koran.

Muhammad was a violent man. He saw himself as the instrument of Allah to kill the infidels and the ones who went against him or what he saw as the cause of Allah. He lived a violent life, and his followers have taken his example.

While it is true that there are violent men who claim to be Christians there is no support in the life of Jesus for violence, there is no passages in the New Testament that promotes or justifies revenge. Jesus lived a life of peace and is called the prince of Peace. This is also fact, he even was killed without taking up arms against his killers and on the Cross asked God to forgive them. The statement you made or rather the question ...

(jeehad)Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise? 

the answer is a resounding NO. There is no such tenant in Christianity. There are talk about people who die as martyrs,being killed WITHOUT taking up arms, praying for their enemies and blessing the ones who kill them, but nowhere is a Christian encouraged to use violence as a means of getting revenge or spreading the gospel. It is a non-violent religion.


Now this is the facts that we see before us, and my statements are made based on these facts.

I believe that you cannot have it both ways, you cannot state the right of one to defend yourself using violence, and then claim that you are not a violent man. If you use violence to solve a problem......by definition you are a violent man. If a religion states its followers may can should or must use violence in defense of its tenants it is by definition a religion who believes that Violence is a accepted means to an end and then again by definition ......a violent religion.

I am truly sorry for the hurt and injustice and pain the people living in the mid east has suffered at the hands of the powers in the west. This is however not the subject of our discussion.

Regards Mustardseed

     

[When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4]

Dear All
Lol  I guess I just cant win. I will be satisfied to leave you all to continue the debate. This is all going way over my head so maybe you are right boys maybe I am ignorant. Maybe Muslims are a peaceloving fun bunch of guys, maybe Islam is a great peaceful movement of wellwishers and kind human beings. Maybe the world is a real fun place and the mid east a wonderworld like Disneyland where dreams come to pass. Muslim women have equality, terrorists were really not trying to hurt anyone but only made a wrong turn on the way to the stone quarry, oops and Osama Bin Laden and his associates are really kinda like Robin Hood and his merry men in disguise. He really wouldn't hurt a fly nooooo....only poke them to make them say sorry sir and besides his sword isn't a real sword but made of aluminum foil. Maybe we should all convert and become Muslims, instate Sharia and see what happens. ..........Hey there is an idea, then we will finally be in Heaven where righteousness rules and we can all live like they do in the mideast , enjoy our figs from our own garden and all have a great ol' time every Friday when the executioner comes to town. Cutting off heads and hands is so much easier than spending all that ungodly energy on re-socializing. We should all adhere to Islam and shun free speech, get some good old fashioned tyrants in place who can get our mind off all our trouble with some major food shortages or a saturday night embassy burning session, and if any of those nasty folks of other religions wont play.......then we all march to the beach together and fill our pockets with stones, and if anyone dares to poke fun of us either through caricatures or sarcasm irony or such we will bring them to justice...........off with their heads too. cause we don't want those troublesome guys around, noo...not being the peaceful loving bunch of guys we are.

I will leave you with one thought. This small part stood out to me in the much writing that has transpired

I have argued (among other things) with Jeehad that Islam is a Violent religion.......he denies this. I quoted a part of the Koran that pertains to unbelievers Sura 47:4 which states

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

His reply was the following very complicated, yet rather enlightening statement:

(Jeehad) Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine 
Well thanks Jeehad for the very emphatic comment on the lack of Morphine in the 1400's, I see clearly how much you care

HELLO PEOPLE anyone home here. I guess it is only me that see anything wrong with this picture but being given the choice of execution method is not what I thought you were talking about when you called yourself Peaceful.

Allright kids I lay it down, and let you all have the field. Good luck with your conversion tour Jeehad.

Regards Mustardseed

I will leave the discussion with just one small ps

PS

What is a presupposition? A presupposition is an assumption you make prior to looking at the evidence. Presuppositions are crucial because they determine how you interpret the evidence. Let me give you an example. Did you hear about the man who thought he was dead? This guy firmly believed he was dead, even though he was a living, normally–functioning human being. Well, his wife persuaded him to visit a psychiatrist, who tried in vain to convince him that he was in fact alive. Finally, the psychiatrist hit upon a plan. He showed the man medical reports and scientific evidence that dead men do not bleed. After thoroughly convincing the man that dead men do not bleed, the psychiatrist took out a pin and pricked the man's finger. When the man saw the drop of blood trickle down his finger, his eyes bugged out. "Ha!" he cried, "Dead men do bleed after all!"

The man's belief that he was dead was a presupposition that determined how he interpreted the evidence. He held so strongly to that presupposition that it skewed how he looked at the facts.

Peace Jeehad you peaceperson you and all the merry men as well. Tell when you are coming to America and I will keep the tea hot

Dear Novice

I am glad that you continue to post and do not get offended by my statements. I hope that this trend continues as we continue exchanging views. I would like to comment on your post if you do not mind as it is obvious that we do not see things eye to eye.

You said:

If you had read my posts, you will see the I repeatedly used words like "guess", "hypothesize", and phrases like "while I don't have the data". I am not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, and with all due respect to you and Jeehad, the topic does not interest me at all. As a result, I have caveatted everything I've said on the subject.

I realized quite early on that this was the case, (that you are no expert on the subject) and this is one point that I would like to draw your attention to. It is your job to moderate, and you are whether you like it or not somewhat of a authority figure. When you make baseless claims it is often accepted for more than opinion. Your "caveatting" (whatever that means) any such baseless claims and stating various hypotheses, is not moderating but rather entering the discussion, at which point you should leave your "moderators-stick" by the door. You should not make such statements as basis for your moderation. That is bias toward an unsubstantiated opinion. 

I previously posted this statement :

It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma

And you replied:

my point is still the same. The above issue you raise here can be said just as much about Christianity as it can about Islam.

If this is your point/claim, please substantiate it, otherwise I does not belong in the discussion, and is merely a quip of no consequence. I believe that you are very wrong indeed. The vast masses of Christians have very successfully marginalized the few Fundamentalists out there, and they are very marginal indeed. On a broad base I would say that only in the states have they succeeded in linking their Faith with politics. Millions of believing Christians have, through education and the very tenants of their belief, rejected aggression toward those who believe otherwise. Partly because the New Testament and the life of Jesus, encourages peace and nonviolence as opposed to The Koran and Muhammed, but also because Christianity has no Hadith, and is believed to be an "individually lived faith". The New Testament stands on its own, without a Hadith, and is opposed to having teachers who twist the scriptures. It certainly is all for leadership, but leadership mind you, on a personal level involving counseling prayer and so forth. As for instigating to religious fervor, there will always be the occasional nut who blows up a abortion clinic, (or invaded another country for that matter) but the vast masses of Christians are not swayed toward violence, nor do they see in their sacred scriptures anything that expects them to take up arms to make the world Christian.

This very issue is what makes the Koran and the Muslims different from the New Testament and Christians.  The Koran encourages an official merging of Religion and state, Sharia law. Under this law an mind-boggling array of human rights violations, are seen as "justifiable" through the tenants of the Koran. Under Sharia law and in a Moslem state, Fatwas and Jeehad are seen as the duty of every Muslim abiding there as well. I hope I do not have to explain what a Fatwa is. This is unthinkable in a Christian country. Please keep in mind that we are not talking here about being offended at various exhibitions, or trying to legislate against certain scientific viewpoints, but rather the slaughter and violence of awesome proportions. Incidentally your own statements supports my point. Christians may protest, try to sway others through politics, and influence through a public debate, but it is a known fact that in Muslim countries anyone seen as desecrating the tenants of the faith is persecuted in the most cruel way or simply executed. Christians are for the most part peaceful and patient seeking to change peoples views through secular means, in court and the public debate as opposed to the masses of Muslims who take to the streets burn down embassies and even blow up themselves and innocent bystanders, in an effort to please their God.

Then you said:


I use the term "broad generalization" exactly as I defined it above -- based on what was in your post. Your initial post made no reference whatsoever to any studies/statistics/reports. It simply said that you lived in those countries and this is the conclusion you came to.  I have no intention of looking up the links you provided and trying to disprove your comments. As I've mentioned repeatedly I do not doubt that they are correct.
My sole intent in posting to this thread is to make sure the posts do not escalate in to biased, inflammatory comments. This was the path in which I saw the latest posts heading (both yours and Jeehad's). That is my job as moderator. So unless things heat up again, I do not intend to add anything further to the conversation

My post did not need to be. This is the way a debate unfolds Novice. At first statements are made, then they are challenged, then they are either substantiated or not. You challenged my statement and I would suggest that you substantiate your claim. I have substantiated my statements very thoroughly, something I did not do because I thought you were well aware of this glaring fact. You were not. You however keep sticking to your unsubstantiated allegations and I ask you to please do so or be silent.

What I think is happening is that you entered the debate in order to calm the rhetoric, maybe unwittingly, promoting Political correctness. To be a "friend" to what appeared to you to be the attacked party you got involved in the actual debate, making claims, hypothesis etc. When I called you on this you denied it and tried to cover up by saying you were only trying to keep things respectful. You cannot make statements in favor of one opponent in a discussion, and then when you are challenged just say "Well I don't know anything about the subject but I was just trying to make you talk nice to each other" Do you follow my line of argument.

Besides that I do not think the debate was all that disrespectful, as Nay said we had a few shots at each other but are both trying to keep our tone reasonable and not too heated.

So choose Novice, stick to moderating or join the debate.

Regards Mustardseed

PS Jeehad...respond to this
KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

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KORAN promises of houris in heaven:

Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.

--------

Koran "sharia" punishments:

As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5:38

My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.

As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.

Dear Novice
While it might as many other issues be an inconvenient truth, the fact is that Islam, the masses of Muslims whereever they may live are sadly suffering from a devastating lack of education. This lack is a fact according to various sources, and only tend to further cement the power of various leaders in the mideast. I am not baking baseless claims here but stating fact. Here is a link to Asiatimes see what you think.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GK01Aa01.html

I think that this is a very interesting issue and one that is very pertinent to the current discussion. It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma. The earth being flat comes to mind, as one such issue. I have not in any way stated anything but fact. I do not mean nor do I feel I show disrespect to the Muslim community worldwide but only drawn attention to this to explain why statements regarding science is so easily believed by the masses, making religious aggression the order of the day. As for the Christians in these same countries I challenge your claim. Consider the following excepts of an essay by Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,


According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.

You can read the full article here

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_251_300/status_of_muslim_societies_aroun.htm


This is written by a Muslim not a Christian and accurately describes that factual state of affairs.

I realize that it is a very embarrassing fact and one that is not easily accepted by educated Muslims, but it is a fact nevertheless. If this fact is not allowed in the discussion, I believe a major point is missed. Like in a court case where a confession of an alledged felon is omitted for technical reasons. We as a world are trying to figure out why terrorism and religious/fanatical fervor plays such a major role in Islamic societies today, in order to help these countries regain their self respect and become equal partners in a better world. As you might know I have lived and worked for 30 years in Muslim countries in the medical and educational field, and I feel qualified to comment like I do. If you or others, who have probably never set foot in a Muslim country, challenge my right to this line of argument in the quest for "niceness" and a respectful discussion you are making a mistake.

I do feel that on a personal level Jeehad and I have had some personal issues and have been less than courteous in to each other, I have tried to address this only to be called ignorant. It seems that it is accepted to call Christians anything degrade our Faith with ridicule and slurs, but the moment (we) utter anything in our defense, we are immediately silenced with accusations of  "a lack of respect".

In my humble opinion this attitude in a symptom of Political Correctness, a sickness that is presently devouring western society. I had hoped that this would be different on the Net and more specifically the AP. If you care to draw my attention to the "Broad generalizations" that I make and substantiate your claims I shall be glad to adjust my views and subsequent postings. Just remember that you are not posting to a young unexperienced student, devoid of experience and intellect, and be careful who you silence in the name of "niceness". I find your own knowledge on the subject rather minute, but maybe I am wrong, as I said I would be glad to stand corrected on this issue. I do love and respect each individual in the world, be he of one faith or another, as an equal, spiritually that is, and this very sad fact is very problematic to me, something that I am trying to change and have been for some 30 years.

Regards Mustardseed

umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!

I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of Christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.

I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.

I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.

I will take that into consideration allthough I do not see the wrong in what I stated. I understand that you would argue as you do but I think that is due to you not having lived in these countries yourself.You argue but could as well say "I guess". One point you are right about is the fact that Muslims and Christians in the USA have the same standard, however that only proves my point. It commonly known that rich Muslim families do everything they can to get their kids a school in Christian USA, as the education is Superior, I think that you are well aware of that fact. The next best is sending them to a Catholic school, in their own or neighboring countries, it is for they educated the most used option. Most fundamentalist schools based on the Koran, are not very sought after by the wealthy and the ones in power. If you as a moderator want me to substantiate these claims I shall gladly do so. If you are trying to silence truth based on political correctness go ahead and censure me. It will not be the first time

Regards Mustardseed

I see how it is in Christianity you believe in "parts of the OT" But doesn't that seem false to you? I mean, its as if your taking a book and ripping out passages of things which "don't suite you." The entire Bible is based upon the ancient Hebrew stories which were later on translated into the modern version of the bible. The NT is actually a continuation of the hebrew stories within the OT which forms this whole Christian ideology. I can find countless number of errors in the bible, contradictions, simple blasphemy and confusing ideologies(I can show you if you like?). First of all, you STILL FAIL to show me any Quranic verses which incite hatred among people YOUR CLAIMING SO but have absolutely no proof at all. I am not angry at you, but your ignorance is overwhelming...

What I said was that Islam is a violent religion. It promores killing infidels if they will not convert, and hate infidels, especially if they oppose Islam or speak up for a different faith. This is evident in a myriad of fatwas and generally known by all. We as Christians do not see the OT and the NT as one book, but Jesus taught a NEW way, and spoke of this often. The NT is as far from the OT in matters of violence and so forth as Communism is from Capitalism. Just imagine if this was not so. Imagine a world in which Christians and Christian nations followed the Islamic principles of converting by sword, imagine a world where every Christian nation was as bloodthirsty and hostile as Israel. The Muslim world would soon be in ruins , wiped out by the Superior weapons and technology of the west.

As for being ignorant this is what the dictionary states is the meaning of the word

Without education or knowledge:
illiterate, , uneducated, uninstructed, unlearned, unschooled, untaught.
See knowledge.

Exhibiting lack of education or knowledge:
backward, benighted, primitive, unenlightened.

Let me assure you that I am not ignorant I might be stupid, in your opinion, I might be aggressive, irritating or arrogant, but I am not ignorant.

To tell you the truth, after having lived in Muslim communities such as Afghanistan Turkey and Iran for many years, it is my firm belief that the masses of Muslim believers are very very ignorant. I would even go so far as to claiming that this is provable. The vast majority of Muslims are, illiterate,,uneducated, unschooled, backward, and primitive just to use some of the definitions from above. As for you I have no way of knowing. At least you can read and spell and express yourself, so I am not sure.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.


Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."



2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open.

OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.

Dear Jeehad

Consider this. As Christians we cannot use old testament history as a way to condone killing. The old and the new testament are very sharply separated to a Christian. In a manner of speaking Jesus changed the way we understand God. The birth of Jesus was a parting of ways with the Old. (testament) It is to us merely a Historical book, that shown the linage of Jesus, and not Commandments from God, this is why we call our selves Christians.

The Old Testament is very like the Koran, an eye for an eye tooth for tooth . revenge slaughter war etc.
but all this was condemned in the NEW Testament. Jesus presented us with another way and was a complete spiritual revolution, that many did (do) not understand.

Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5.11

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court." Mt. 5.21-22

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41

Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46

Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another." Mt. 10.22-23

Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt. 10.28

Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25

Jesus said, "I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 18.3

Jesus said, "See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven." Mt. 18.10

Jesus said, "anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." Mt. 20.26-28

If you refuse to love, you must remain dead; to hate your brother is to be a murderer, and murderers, as you know, do not have eternal life in them.
—1 John 3.15
Jesus said, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Mt. 22.40

Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." Mt 25.42-43,45-46

Jesus said, "It is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean." Mk. 7.21-23

Jesus said, "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18

Jesus said, "when you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too." Mk. 11.25

Jesus said, "if anyone has two tunics, he must share with the man who has none, and the one with something to eat must do the same." Luke 3.11

Jesus said, "No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay." Lk 3.14

Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly." Lk. 6.27-28

Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27

Jesus said, "why do you call me, "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?" Lk. 6.46

Jesus said, "What is written in the law? What do you read there? He replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered right," said Jesus "do this and life is yours." Lk 10.26-28

Jesus (on the cross) said, "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing." Lk 23.34

Jesus said, "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John. 8.7

Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples." Jn. 13.34-35

Jesus said, "Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me;" Jn. 14.21

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22

Jesus said, "What I command you is to love one another." Jn. 14.27

Jesus said, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. But it will be on my account that they will do all this, because they do not know the one who sent me." Jn. 15.20-21

Jesus said, "I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but be brave: I have conquered the world." Jn. 16.33

Jesus said, "I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Jn. 17.26

Jesus said, "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36

Like the Lion in Narnia (by C.S. Lewis, he spoke and taught us a deeper truth.


My apologies if I make you feel like you live in a cave, I am sure you do not. I was merely trying to soften the rhetoric between us, and felt quite bad that I had engaged in such a heated debate. I suppose my apology was not accepted. It seems to me that you have made up your mind that I am wrong, and enemy of the truth,that you have been offended and therefore you will not be appeased. There is not much more that I can do. It seems we nolonger are having a discussion about our respective beliefs, but an argument where emotions hurts pride and ego are more important than the sharing of information. If that is the case, I do not want to be a part of it.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Jeehad

I realise now that you indeed are very young. I therefor apologize for my heated arguments and rash statements. It appears that you are very keen on actually seeking out matters for yourself and I would suggest that you read the following link and consider the matter carefully. I realize that this essay is very foreign to you. You most likely have been brought up by loving and peacefull parents in a environment where violence is condemned, hence the content may not be YOUR reality, yet it is a reality for millions of others who have not been that blessed. Keep an open mind to facts Jeehad and examine these and make up your own mind.

Regards Mustardseed

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/696408/posts

Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.


Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."



2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open.

OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.


Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam.

Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.

In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".

How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT)

    "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" (18:29)

Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth.

    "We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended" (17:105)

    "Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth" (27:79)

Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous khutbah [friday sermon] that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.

The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?

First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows:

    "Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."

The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said:

    "The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, Salah [prayer] has been described as follows by Sir Arnold:

    "The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected."

Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the Juma'a prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of Juma'a prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.

In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, Zakah [alms tax distributed to the poor], Hajj [pilgrimage to Makkah], Siyam [fasting in Ramadan], have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of Zakah. The genius of Hajj and Siyam has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.

A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following:

    "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."

The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the present day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam:

    "Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind".

The she went on to say:

    "Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."

Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentals of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words:

    "This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."

My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says:

    "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said:

    "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."

Dear Jeehad

I simply cannot do the subject justice. It is now obvious or at least likely that you are just some mideastern fanatic, mindlessly repeating the same story your teachers tell you. Your hypocracy is daunting. Again I blocked out part of your discourse and found your tirade to be someone elses words. All that grand talk about being a scolar and very knowledgable is such a haux. You are probably some scool kid somewhere in the mid east with no opinion of his own so why do I even bother.

Here is what I blocked out

In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".

Here is what Google found

http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/sword.html

Our conversation is nothong but a reiteration of what you find on the net. These thoughts that you seem to think for yourself are articles that you cut and paste .

Don't you get it Jeehad, you are exposed for what a fanatic you are, and totally exposed for all your claims of superior knowledge and religious insight into Islam. You are a bigot and a fake.

Besides that , the very fact that you continue to claim that Islam is NOT a violent religion boggles the mind. This was the issue in the cartoon controversy. Muhammad was portrayed as a violent man and his followers as violent and they basically burned down the mideast with even many of their own followers killed, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE NOT A VIOLENT RELIGION.

In my opinion YOU are the follower of a very violent and immoral man, and I have nothing in common with you, nothing at all.

Regards Mustardseed

My dear msutardseed I have nothing agsint doign research on google. What I am accusing you of is simply posting something without your own consent ot explanation. You will notice I provide my own writings with proof from the internet to back up my claims. Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it. MustardSeed, I believe that the bible was a step unto the formation of the Holy Quran. JEsus preached a message known as the injeel(good news) which we as muslims MUST BELIEVE.Although, history prooevs to us that the bible has been chanegd and altered. The Quran comes down asa  revelation from God almighty to seal all the religions.The final conclusion unto mankind. Uniting humanity to worship One true God, the God of abraham. Regarding man as equal beings(including the prophets). Islam is the total submission of ones will to the almighty lord. I was also using an OBE as an example of "proof" for everyone else I never claimed your belief in it. Words are the essence of communication, and the only form of preservation. Take a look at this video of a Quranic reciation;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ivk7NoXxUA

You will find 5 scientifical and predicting verses in this chapter. The whole point of the chapter is to prove Gods existence; God is giving you a point and saying how could you deny me now?As if hes trying to proev something. Isn't it significant that 5 verses in this chapter all are documented by scientists? All in a chapter which was meant to prove a point to humanity? This chapter holds the most scientifical and predicting verses in the Holy quran ^.- 

Dear Jeehad
Please do not degrade this to the usual rant and rave kind of discussion. The way you talk about me is not only incorrect but rather rude. As I said I know a lot about the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad. Maybe not as much as you do, but then again I am not from where you are, and have not had the opportunity to be taught as you have. To quote me as having the attitude as you say above ..............

" Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it,"..............is wrong.

It is also not respectful and as you know respect is a Islamic duty and a trait you should try your best to emulate. In my opinion you are very sincere but sincerely wrong. What is disturbing is this. Folks like you who are brought up the way you are, and who are indoctrinated so effectively, become the very curse of your own cause. In their zealous yet frustrated efforts to "save" the unbelievers and spread their "righteous" cause, they grow increasingly more aggressive. After the big Jeehad the small Jeehad in often quite a logical step.

As far as I see it your religion supports violence as a means of retaliation and aggression against any PRECIEVED threat. Mohamed was a very violent man, and conversion by the sword is a big part of Islam. Osama Bin Laden is actually a very faithful Muslim, and he knows his Koran. Many follow his teachings as they cannot deny their validity and the result is violence and death.

Maybe you will say Bush is doing the same but I think it is evident that Jesus said to his followers, to "Love your enemies do good to them that hate you and pray for them that dispitefully abuse you".

Your link to the Koran recital was pretty silly in my opinion, at least being used in this discussion. It proved nothing and only sways the illiterate uneducated masses in various Muslim countries, with pretty words, causing them to get all wrapped up in this mind-numbing romantisism, that is so typical for that type of discourse. I have sat through plenty.

Regards Mustardseed

PS Do us all and yourself a favour and use the spell check feature. It is evident that you are not a native English speaker, your lack of knowledge of grammar detracts greatly from your posts, and you are not doing yourself a favour.



Regards Mustardseed

My dear Jeehad

Well I am very sorry that you seem to get so upset. I stated my point and will leave it at that. For your information I do believe in the Bible, and tho I cannot prove it as being the Truth of God, and tho it does seem to at times be very illogical, I still BELIEVE in it and do not see that as a problem.

As for using Goggle to research matters, this is something I have never hidden, on the contrary I stated very openly this very fact as a support of my claim, regarding the availability of knowledge on the subject at hand. You however state that your knowledge comes from some other source and call me a hypocrite. Well I was wondering about that and blocked out the following paregraph from your post

This paragraph is not indicated to be a quote but seem to be your words and your superior knowledge as a learned scholar. After blocking out the text below I pasted it into Goggle and below it you can see what I found. It appears that you yourself use sources from the net to bolster your claims.....gotcha


Here is what I blocked out

Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honored by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists  "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."


This is what came up

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2005-44,GGLR:en&q=Dr%2e+Moore+was+a+former+President+of+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists%2c+and+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists%2e+He+was+honoured+by+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists+with+the+prestigious+J%2eC%2eB%2e+Grant+Award+and+in+1994+he+received+the+Honoured+Member+Award+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists++%22for+outstanding+contributions+to+the+field+of+clinical+anatomy%2e%22



Anyway it seems that our conversation is escalating into agression, and that you are very close to boiling point.....sorry about that. You yourself seem to either be very young or rather naive , but what the heck, I am no Einstein either. 

There is a lot of stuf out there isn't there, enough that the most ignorant can appear smart, and the fanatic can appear very balanced, it is all just words Jeehad and as my tag says "Words....there was a time I believed in words".

Regards Mustardseed

PS I never claimed to have proof that OBEs are "real" I dont know where you got that one.

Hi Goober
Thanks for the suggestions but I will pass at that one. My aim was not to change this mans faith, and  have no desire to win anything. My desire and intent was to draw to his attention to the fact, that for every claim he makes some learned person outthere has made a counterclaim. If he really want to investigate these claims, all he has to do is google it. This is to me no clever debating forum where the one who spends the most time on the subject at hand, and uses the quickest responces best wit etc wins the debate.

I stated that FAITH is just that FAITH. It is Jeehads belief that he can PROVE the existence of God, and the prophetic nature of Muhammad THROUGH SCIENCE. A claim that is often made throughout the Islamic world. This is one of the most widely used phrases and appeals immensely to the illiterate and poorly educated millions of Muslims. It is a very powerfull claim, yet it does not stand up to scrutiny in a modern western world. Take fx the Surah 36:36 about being made in pairs. I have sat in conversion with Mullahs from a small village in Pakistan, who made this very same claim. When confronted with the counterclaim they refused to believe that there was any such thing as a hermaphrodite, sticking to their story that "everything is made in pairs" . These people speak for the masses of Muslims, and preach every Friday in the Mosque that Islam is a Scientific faith. This puts Muslims in the west in a very odd situation. In order to PROVE their point they then have to get so complicated and use the most ridiculous far flung scientific theories, and when they get real desperate they say somethink like this........

(Jeehad)
There might be other explanations to this verse that we still have not thought about, or don't know about yet.  Our knowledge today will not be similar to the knowledge we will have in the future.  Of course, scientists, including physicists, are still doing a lot of research, and in the future, God willing, this verse will be fully explained in the light of our then newly acquired knowledge.  ............................. So, it could possibly take another 100 years, 1400 years, or maybe more, before this verse is fully understood.

end quote

This is to me obviously choosing to BELIEVE, it is an obvious display of a very clear intent to stay BELIEVING hoping that if things are not proved now they WILL BE someday in the future.

In my opinion it is clear that those who wrote the Koran did indeed believe that everything was made in  pairs, this is in the Bible as well. The far flung explanations is in my opinion only "cutting a toe or heel to make the shoe fit". However, as I said before since he chooses to stay firm on his FAITH I will rest my case. I do not think he is openminded nor that he will read and research with the TRUTH in mind but rather that he will Choose to read what supports his preconceived opinion. Thats all. In any case ....no harm done, and no problem with me. He is not alone in this millions of Christians and Muslims do the same. Those who can see through this, will do so and those who chose to agree with him will do so as well.

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Jeehad

Ok then, we will leave it at this. As I said before a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile. Thats ok with me. A few points comes to mind though that shows me that you have a great disdain for views other than your own. Firstly you seem to put me down for using articles found on the net in my argumentation. Yet you yourself use the very same. Books and exhortations from youtube etc. Much to my surprise you seem to feel that your points are more valid since you have read books and studied the subject. Thats is what the net provides. This is my point exactly. The net is a big place and much information can be found there, it is no longer needed for one to be a scholar in order to debate.

In any case my view is, that one can prove or disprove any subject from global warming to scientific prophesies and doctrines in the Koran, by researching the net. If however one chooses to only use the points in support to ones opinion, instead of researching the opposite point, one is bound to further cement ones belief.

Faith is to me just that..... FAITH. You have mentioned nothing that is not challenged by others, you only choose to believe certain arguments and I choose the opposite. Thats all. Any further discussion is pointless. You may barrage me with further discourses and added arguments only proving to me that your mind is made up . This is then no longer a sincere discussion by 2 seekers of truth, but rather a sort of mental aggression and condescending argument and attitude of one, who sees himself as a teacher, who with his version of the TRUTH, shows of his own superiority. One who thinks that he has read EVERY SINGLE argument who knows all there is to know, is a know-it-all. You nolonger seek truth but you preach what you see as the TRUTH, and we have nothing in common.

Peace to you as well

Regards Mustardseed

Regards Mustardseed   

Jesus isn't a myth I believe Jesus received gods true Word and he taught mankind but JESUS IS NOT GOD NOR IS HE THE SON OF GOD. He is simply a teacher, whom teaches the way to live life accordingly to mankind and the decent of Jesus was mercy upon mankind. History shows us that the word in which Jesus preached has been changed and altered through ought time forming the modern version of Christianity. Muhammad received the final revelation from God forming the last religion. a religion uniting humanity to submit themselves to ONE God worthy of worship. A religion which unites humanity to view each other as brothers and sisters. This rendition of the story of Jesus is indeed compatible with history.

Dear Jeehad

I have debated this issue with you from a few angles, yet it seems that you have chosen to believe what you have been taught, rather than actually investigating these claims by yourself. I do not fault you for this. It is s scary thing to find ones beliefsystem rattled, and many chose to hide their head in a pile of sand as the proverbial ostrich rather than accept views and facts foreign to them. I myself have had a very rough ride from fundamentalist Christian to a believing Christian.

What it comes down to is this. As humans we seem to be hardwired to certain beliefs and those of us who have integrity and who seek the truth chose to often stand up for these beliefs and challenge those who believe otherwise. Often we quote various catch phrases and teachings, only to find out that others dismiss these at the drop of a hat. This only gets our blood boiling and without actually looking further in facts and researching these alternate claims we only start talking louder. It is understandable.

However if you would bother researching your claims as seen by those who disbelieve them, actively looking for the truth with an open mind, you will be very surprised.

Life is changing all around you Jeehad and the teachers you trust may not have at their disposal the vast knowledge that is currently being assembled on the internet. Experts in every field of science scholars in every area are making their research available to everyone and what was previously, only a decade ago, not accessable to the public is indeed being posted on the net.

In the light of this I challenge you to research the claims of your opponents, rather than solidifying yourself in a previously held beliefsystem. Seek for the truth and you will find it. Thats all.

As for myself I believe in Jesus........I cannot explain why. I believe that He is real and very present yet I have come to conclude it is my FAITH and is not provable. It could have happened the way it is written and that is enough for me. We are dealing with spiritual truths here and not an exact science. This is why I reiterate that you have a belief and I also have a belief. The moment we force our beliefs on others either through manipulation (fear remorse etc) or through violence, we have strayed from the path.

I am sure you can agree that whatever our different views God has to be LOVE, he is allknowing and all seeing omnipresent and full of mercy. The creator if you will, logically cannot hate and despise his own creation. If we can agree on this I will be satisfied. If you disagree please tell me what you think God will do to those who disbelieve in the KORAN or the BIBLE. Will he destroy them? If so why not destroy them now. What do you think? It appears that Jeehad,( the small Jeehad ) advocates this view, so where does that put you.

Regards Mustardseed

Check these as well as the thousands of others

http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

(Quote)

QURAN AND ALL CREATION IN PAIRS

INTRODUCTION
It is my observation that some Islamists, particularly those who are Western-educated, strive to prove the validity of the Quran through supposed scientific miracles enclosed therein. Typically, they quote 'vague' verses amenable to multiple interpretations and then choose the few interpretations to suit their aims. Some of these are even quite convincing, particularly when articulated by knowledgeable Islamists and where absolute proof is impossible due to the nature of the question.

This article seeks to debunk just one of these claims, which is the claim that Allah created all creatures in pairs, male and female.


013.003
Yusuf Ali: And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider!
Pickthal: And He it is Who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covereth the night with the day. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought.
Shakir: And He it is Who spread the earth and made in it firm mountains and rivers, and of all fruits He has made in it two kinds; He makes the night cover the day; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
Sher Ali: And HE it is Who spread out the earth and made therein mountains and rivers, and of fruits of every kind HE made therein two sexes. HE causes the night to cover the day. Therein, verily, are Signs for a people who reflect.
Wahuwa allathee madda al-arda wajaAAala feeha rawasiya waanharan wamin kulli alththamarati jaAAala feeha zawjayni ithnayni yughshee allayla alnnahara inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona


036.036
Yusuf Ali: Glory to God, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.
Pickthal: Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
Shakir: Glory be to Him Who created pairs of all things, of what the earth grows, and of their kind and of what they do not know.
Sher Ali: Holy is HE Who created all things in pairs, of what the earth grows and of themselves, and of what they know not.
Subhana allathee khalaqa al-azwaja kullaha mimma tunbitu al-ardu wamin anfusihim wamimma la yaAAlamoona


043:012
Yusuf Ali: That has created pairs in all things, and has made for you ships and cattle on which ye ride,
Pickthal: He Who created all the pairs, and appointed for you ships and cattle whereupon ye ride.
Shakir: And He Who created pairs of all things, and made for you of the ships and the cattle what you ride on,
Sher Ali: And Who has created pairs of all things, and has made for you ships and cattle whereon you ride,
Waallathee khalaqa al-azwaja kullaha wajaAAala lakum mina alfulki waal-anAAami ma tarkaboona


051.049
Yusuf Ali: And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.
Pickthal: And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.
Shakir: And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.
Sher Ali: And of everything have WE created pairs that you may reflect.
Wamin kulli shay-in khalaqna zawjayni laAAallakum tathakkaroona


Please note that due to the 'richness of the Arabic language' and because Allah made the Quran 'clear and easy to understand', some Islamists may try to argue that at least some of these verses do not convey the message that 'ALL CREATURES' are created in pairs, taking the literal or metaphorical sense whichever and whenever suits them best.

For example, a disingenuous Islamist may claim that verse 13:3 refers only to FRUITS, or that verse 36:36 refers only to things grown from the Earth (i.e. plants). However verses 43:12 and 51:49 make it absolutely clear that Allah created ALL CREATURES in pairs. There is no ambiguity.

I will ignore the following verses, recognizing the possibility of relevance solely to humans. Further, their inclusion does not detract from my arguments.
"That He did create in pairs,- male and female, (The Noble Quran, 53:45)"
"And of him He made two sexes, male and female. (The Noble Quran, 75:39)"
"By (the mystery of) the creation of male and female; (The Noble Quran, 92:3)"


The Islamists Case

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1_50/all_things_in_pair.htm

PAIRS IN LIVING THINGS
One of the most recent of all scientific discoveries is that everything in the universe exists in pairs such as male and female among living things. Now we find that rock crystals also have pairs.

The Qur'an says: And of everything We have created pairs: That ye may receive Instruction.

Surah Zariyat, 51: 49 A. Yusuf All in note 5025 item (3) says " All things are in twos: sex in plants and animals, by which one individual is complementary to another; in the subtle forces of nature. Day and Night, positive and negative electricity, forces of attraction and repulsion: and numerous other opposites, each fulfilling its purpose, and contributing to the working of God's Universe; and in the moral and spiritual world. Love and Aversion, Mercy and Justice, Striving and Rest, and so on;-all fulfilling their functions according to the Artistry and wonderful Purpose of God. Everything has its counterpart, or pair, or complement. God alone is One, with none like Him, or needed to complement Him. These are noble things to contemplate. And they lead us to a true understanding of God's Purpose and Message."

http://www.science4islam.com/html/sci-04e.html...we find in the following verse more generalizations where Allah Says; (And of everything we have created pairs, that ye may receive instruction). The word "thing we together with the people who preceded us have understood it to be inclusive to contain humans, plants and animals. Since the Quran has included them all in this verse and told us that all creatures were made up of males and females.

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
PLANTS CREATED IN PAIRS, MALE AND FEMALE
Previously humans did not know that plants too have male and female gender distinctions. Botany states that every plant has a male and female gender. Even the plants that are unisexual have distinct elements of both male and female. "'And has sent Down water from the sky.' With it have We produced Diverse pairs of plants Each separate from the others." [Al- Qur'aan 20:53]

FRUITS CREATED IN PAIRS, MALE AND FEMALE
"And fruit Of every kind He made In pairs, two and two." [Al-Qur'aan
13:3]
Fruit is the end product of reproduction of the superior plants. The stage
preceding fruit is the flower, which has male and female organs (stamens and ovules). Once pollen has been carried to the flower, they bear fruit, which in turn matures and frees its seed. All fruits therefore imply the existence of male and female organs; a fact that is mentioned in the Qur'aan.
In certain species, fruit can come from non-fertilized flowers (parthenocarpic fruit) e.g. bananas, certain types of pineapple, fig, orange, vine, etc. They also have definite sexual characteristics.

EVERYTHING MADE IN PAIRS
"And of everything We have created pairs." [Al-Qur'aan 51:49]
This refers to things other than humans, animals, plants and fruits. It may also be referring to a phenomenon like electricity in which the atoms consist of negatively – and positively – charged electrons and protons.

"Glory to Allah, Who created In pairs all things that The earth produces,
as well as Their own (human) kind And (other) things of which They
have no knowledge." [Al-Qur'aan 36:36]
The Qur'aan here says that everything is created in pairs, including things that the humans do not know at present and may discover later.


MATTER AND ANTIMATTER
Some Islamists claim the mere existence of antimatter complements to matter, without regard to their relative abundance (matter dominates in our universe after the first second post the Big Bang) proves the validity of the 'creation in pairs' verses, particularly 43:12, 51:49, and especially 36:36 (as in "pairs of things unknown to them"). The 'things unknown to them' part supposedly refers to our modern understanding of particle physics.

The British physicist Paul Dirac, who discovered that matter was created in pairs, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1933. This finding, known as "parity," revealed the duality known as matter and antimatter. Antimatter bears the opposite characteristics to matter. For instance, contrary to matter, antimatter electrons are positive and protons negative.

An Islamist making this sort of claim is Osama Abdallah of Answering-Christianity.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/john_wuurt.htm


Rebutting the Islamists Case
The case against the Quran and the Islamists is really very simple. All one has to do is to show that not all creatures are 'created' in pairs. My opinion is that Muhammad, didn't have access to a microscope or a good Level 1 biology textbook. Therefore, he couldn't have known about asexual organisms, parthenogenetic organisms, or hermaphrodites.

It was all too easy for Muhammad to observe male and female humans, camels, dogs, and even devils, jinns, and angels. But as he had no idea about micro-organisms and herpetology he was unaware that he was mistaken in his belief that all creatures came in males and females.

The alternative theses are also interesting: either Allah forgot He created asexual, parthenogenetic, and hermaphroditic organisms; Allah forgot to tell Jibreel; Jibreel didn't listen to Allah; or Jibreel forgot to tell Muhammad.

Given this glaring mistake that all creatures are created in (male-female) pairs it is clear that Muhammad made up the Quran.

1. The Quran leaves out asexual organisms.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex1.htm
Asexual reproduction is found in the majority of living organisms, including most plants, protists (e.g. bacteria, protozoans, and unicellular algae and fungi), and many lower invertebrates such as tapeworms.

Other examples of asexual reproductive organisms are hydrae and many lower plants (e.g. ferns). Some organisms are also capable of regeneration, a specialized form of asexual reproduction, for example starfish, polyps, zebrafish, flatworms, newts, and salamanders. Many plants are capable of total regeneration. Among animals, the lower the form, the more capable it is of total regeneration; no vertebrates have this power (except artificially in the lab). Regeneration is closely allied to vegetative reproduction, the formation of a new individual by various parts of the organism not specialized for reproduction. The highest animals that exhibit vegetative reproduction are the colonial tunicates (e.g. sea squirts), which, much like plants, send out runners in the form of stolons, small parts of which form buds that develop into new individuals.

(Note that hydra and jellyfish and many primarily asexual organisms are also capable of sexual reproduction – however many simple organisms like bacterial, yeasts and Fungi Imperfecti are totally asexual).


2. The Quran leaves out hermaphrodites.
Some creatures, including plants, are totally hermaphrodites. For example, sponges, snails, the slug-like sea hare, and some kinds of deep-sea arrow worms are hermaphrodites, that is, they have both sexes in one body.

Some creatures also change their sex during their life-cycles: Quahogs (hard-shell clams) are born and grow up male, but later half of them turn female. Slipper shells and cup and saucer shells do this too; they commence every season as males, but nearly all of them later pass through a phase of ambisexuality and turn into adult females. Some species change sex depending on their environment, such as the marine worm Ophryotrocha, if the portly young females are later underfed they revert back into males again. Some fish can also change sex spontaneously, for example some groupers and guppies.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex2.htm#s5

Some Islamists may try to claim that hermaphrodites are actually a male-female pair as both sexes are included in the one organism. It may be that in a population some hermaphrodites act as males while others act as females. This Islamist claim, of course, would be totally dishonest as a hermaphrodite, by definition, is both male and female at once, even if performing one of its sexual functions at the one time.


3. The Quran leaves out parthenogenetic organisms.
Parthenogenesis is a form of reproduction in which the ovum develops into a new individual without fertilization. Natural parthenogenesis has been observed in many lower animals (it is characteristic of the rotifers), especially insects, e.g., the aphid. In many social insects, such as the honeybee and the ant, the unfertilized eggs give rise to the male drones and the fertilized eggs to the female workers and queens.

Note that the aphids, bees and ants are not true parthenogenetic organisms as they are also capable of sexual reproduction.

However, Muhammad apparently didn't know about the 15 species of whiptail lizard (genus Cnemidophorus) that are wholly parthenogenetic, for example Cnemidophorus tigris (Western whiptail) and C. neomexicanus, nor did he know about the Ambystomids, the unisexual hybrid salamanders.

http://members.aol.com/Attic21/CreatureofDay/whip.html

He also didn't know about the Island or Brahminy Blind Snake, Ramphotyphlops braminus, the only parthenogenetic snake in the world which happens to originate from the Pacific Islands (lands unknown to Arabs in Muhammad's time).


4. The Chinese Yin-Yang duality concept.
Islamists claim the Quran's 'creation in pairs' verses, especially 36:36 refers to our modern understanding of matter antimatter complements. Some critics respond by highlighting the relative paucity of antimatter compared to matter, particularly as most antimatter was destroyed in the first second after the Big Bang. http://www.answer-islam.org/earth_in_islam.htm

Nevertheless, some Islamist might claim that the mere fact that antimatter exists proves the Quranic 'creation in pairs' verses to be miraculous as how could a seventh century bandit know about matter antimatter?

Unfortunately for the Islamist polemicists, the ancient Chinese already believed in the duality of all creation. This duality principle is known as 'Yin and Yang', part of the Taoist belief system. The date of origin of the Yin-Yang duality principle is unknown, however all reasonable estimates predate Islam by at least two thousand five hundred years. {Note the Yin-Yang symbol dates back to at least 400BC and was present in ancient Shang Dynasty Bronze but the Yin-Yang principle dated much earlier.}

Quote:
The Yellow Emperor, legendary Chinese emperor and cultural hero ruling from 2698 BC to 2598 BC and considered to be the ancestor of the Han Chinese, said "The principle of Ying and Yang is the foundation of the entire universe. It underlies everything in creation. It brings about the development of parenthood; it is the root and source of life and death...

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/philos/yinyangsymbol.htm

These quotes about Yin-Yang show that it may be extended to matter antimatter complements:
Quote:
Counterparts and conflicting opposites, they complemented each other in the formation of a creative force whose products were heaven and earth with its fruits. 

http://religion-cults.com/Eastern/Taoism/taoism.htm

Quote:
According to the theoretical physics developed in the twentieth century the principle of Yin Yang and the use of paradox persist; when there is matter there must also be antimatter. 

http://home.iprimus.com.au/btheos/articles/AncientChineseWisdom-1.htm

Thus, it is hardly miraculous for the Quran to claim 'creation in pairs' of all things known and unknown when the ancient Chinese already believed in a remarkably similar duality principle at least two thousand years before Islam.


4. The Rig Veda.

Islamists are not unique among religious polemicists who reinterpret ancient scriptures in the light of modern science. Dr Raja Ram Mohan Roy, a physical scientist, in "VEDIC PHYSICS: Scientific Origin of Hinduism; Golden Egg Publishing" makes such a claim that the Rig Veda already presaged the modern scientific understanding of matter antimatter complements.

http://www.rameshnrao.com/religion-philosophy-re-reading-the-rig-veda.html
http://www.indiastar.com/closepet5.html

Quote:
Thus the contracting universe is "Martanda", the living universe Vivasvana, the first pair of particle and anti-particle (matter and antimatter) are "Yama" and "Manu", the early part of the universe when the surface tension was the most important force constraining the expansion of the universe the battle between these two forces is the immortalized epic battle of Indra and Vrtra.


It is also claimed that the Purusha sukta from Yajuraranayaka (3:13, 33& 34) alluded to antimatter, dark matter and black holes. http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=2908



CONCLUSION
Therefore, based on the existence of asexual, hermaphroditic and parthenogenetic organisms, the Quranic verses about Allah creating ALL CREATURES in pairs (male and female) is debunked. The ancient Chinese Yin-Yang duality principle proves that the any spurious Islamist claim of 'creation in pairs' to mean matter antimatter complements to be unremarkable. Besides, some Hindus make similar claims about the Rig-Veda as the Islamists make about the Quran about scriptural allusions to matter and antimatter.
_________________

My dear Jeehad

Salam alaykum

It s not my intent to destroy your faith so forgive me if my postings offend you. Do not however expect that your claims will go uncontested in this day and age. This is not the mosque nor are you, in the eyes of the AP posters an authority. Your claims are to most of us ridiculous at the least, and not worthy of serious thought. I am not faulting you for your faith but for your claim that YOUR FAITH CAN BE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVED.

Get a grip my friend. As far as the YOUTUBE clip it is absurd to use a Pakistani speaking man as a proof of anything. Don't you get it.........

Anyway my posts say it all, if you do not agree with the Hadith ........tell me. Is the Hadith an authority or not?

Regards Mustardseed

PS I am well versed in the Koran, not only that but I have lived decades in Muslim contries, under Muslim law, and have fought for your freedom to believe what you believe. Do not however lay claim to all truth under the guise of science. Your faith is just that, a faith, a belief system nothing that can be proven nothing unquestionable. A FAITH thats all

If this does not convince you, and I believe it probably won't google this      koran science debunked

Here is one such hit   http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6713

A few more thoughts..........

The following is a brief list of some of the strange and absurd teachings of Muhammad which I feel are in contradiction with modern science What do YOU think.

1. Adam was 60 cubits tall! (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 543) Then how tall was Eve? If they were that tall, how did we get here?

2. Muhammad was a dog hater. He thought that angels could not enter a house if a dog was there and that black dogs were devils. Thus he ordered dogs to be killed and forbid the selling of dogs. (Bukhari vol- IV, nos. 539, 540; Muslim vol. I, nos. 551, 552; vol. II, nos. 3803, 3829)

3. Satan lives in the nose over night. He can be flushed out if you snort water up and then out the nose. (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 516; Muslim vol. I, no. 462) How big is Satan? Is he in everyone's nose? Is he omnipresent?

4. Muhammad forbade the game of chess! (Muslim vol. IV, no. 5612) This makes no sense to me.

5. People turn into rats, pigs and monkeys. (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 524, 627; Muslim vol. IV, no. 7135). Abraham's father was turned into an animal (Bukhari vol. IV, no.569)

6. Muslims have one intestine while non-Muslims have seven! (Muslim vol. 111, no. 5113-5115)

7. If you lift up your eyes towards heaven while praying, your eyes will be snatched out! (Muslim vol. III, nos. 862-863)
8. One wing of a fly has poison but the other wing has the antidote to it. (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 537)

9. We should drink camel urine as a medicine. (Bukhari vol. I, no. 234)
10 He was asked to explain why a child will look like one parent as opposed to looking like the other. He claimed that Gabriel came and gave the inspired answer. See Bukhari vol. IV: no. 546. So, we are dealing with revelation and not just his personal opinion. He said that the child will look like which parent reaches his or her sexual climax first. The study of genetics and DNA forever disproves this idea.

Again the above is freely available on the net

Regards Mustardseed

[One of the questions which puzzled the ancient Arabs was, "Where did the sun go when night time came?" The Qur'an gave them Allah's answer.He [i.e. Zul-qarnain] followed, until he reached the setting of the sun. He found it set in a spring of murky water.(Surah XVIII ( Kahf) vs. 85-86) We agree with Muslim scholars that Zul-qarnain refers to Alexander the Great (see Yusuf Ali's appendix on this subject in his translation of the Qur'an). According to this surah, Alexander the Great traveled west until he found out what happened to the sun. It went down into and under the murky waters of a pond. When it was completely covered by the water, darkness fell upon the earth.To the early Muslims, this surah gave the divine answer as to why darkness fell when the sun set in the West. They assumed that the sun, like the moon, was the size perceived by the human eye, about the size of a basketball. Darkness came when with a mighty hissing roar it went down under the dark waters of a pond. They boldly and proudly proclaimed that this marvelous answer proved that the Qur'an was indeed the Word of God.Today, modern Muslims are quite embarrassed by this passage and try to ignore it or to quickly dismiss it as poetry. But the passage is not part of a poem. Thus it cannot be dismissed as figurative language or poetic license. In the context, it is part of a historical narrative which relates several historical incidences in the life of Alexander the Great.The mistake was based on the erroneous assumption that the earth was flat. The authors of the Qur'an did not know that the earth was a sphere which revolved around the sun.The reader must ask himself if he is prepared to believe and to defend the Qur'an in this passage. Either the sun sets in a pond or it doesn't. It is either one way or the other. There can be no middle ground, no compromise, no evading the issue. If you agree with us that the sun is shining on the other side of the earth and thus it does not go down into murky water, then you must also agree with us that the Qur'an contains scientific errors."So what?" you ask. "Who cares!" you cry. Only those who are brave enough to seek the truth will care. Those who are intellectually lazy or dishonest will close their eyes and pretend to see nothing.It only takes one error to disprove the Qur'an. That's right. Just one little error and the whole book goes down in defeat! You have just discovered one irrefutable error in the Qur'an. What are you going to do about it?]

The Holy Quran is a revelation from God almighty to his prophet Muhammed pbuh. The thing is, during the dark ages where logic and reason had collapsed into a period of corruption, THE QURAN STATES SCIENTIFIC SIGNS which were later on discovered and verified thousands of years later. I ask who could have come up with these? No one except God almighty

http://www.freewebs.com/1slam/scienceinthekoran.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/1slam/proofofgodsexistence.htm

My second line of argument is the following. If there is error in the scientific signs you claim the Koran contains, it is subsequently a fallacy. Consider this argument found at Chick publications.



One of the questions which puzzled the ancient Arabs was, "Where did the sun go when night time came?" The Qur'an gave them Allah's answer.

He [i.e. Zul-qarnain] followed, until he reached the setting of the sun. He found it set in a spring of murky water.
(Surah XVIII ( Kahf) vs. 85-86)

We agree with Muslim scholars that Zul-qarnain refers to Alexander the Great (see Yusuf Ali's appendix on this subject in his translation of the Qur'an). According to this surah, Alexander the Great traveled west until he found out what happened to the sun. It went down into and under the murky waters of a pond. When it was completely covered by the water, darkness fell upon the earth.

To the early Muslims, this surah gave the divine answer as to why darkness fell when the sun set in the West. They assumed that the sun, like the moon, was the size perceived by the human eye, about the size of a basketball. Darkness came when with a mighty hissing roar it went down under the dark waters of a pond. They boldly and proudly proclaimed that this marvelous answer proved that the Qur'an was indeed the Word of God.

Today, modern Muslims are quite embarrassed by this passage and try to ignore it or to quickly dismiss it as poetry. But the passage is not part of a poem. Thus it cannot be dismissed as figurative language or poetic license. In the context, it is part of a historical narrative which relates several historical incidences in the life of Alexander the Great.

The mistake was based on the erroneous assumption that the earth was flat. The authors of the Qur'an did not know that the earth was a sphere which revolved around the sun.

The reader must ask himself if he is prepared to believe and to defend the Qur'an in this passage. Either the sun sets in a pond or it doesn't. It is either one way or the other. There can be no middle ground, no compromise, no evading the issue. If you agree with us that the sun is shining on the other side of the earth and thus it does not go down into murky water, then you must also agree with us that the Qur'an contains scientific errors.

"So what?" you ask. "Who cares!" you cry. Only those who are brave enough to seek the truth will care. Those who are intellectually lazy or dishonest will close their eyes and pretend to see nothing.

It only takes one error to disprove the Qur'an. That's right. Just one little error and the whole book goes down in defeat! You have just discovered one irrefutable error in the Qur'an. What are you going to do about it?

The above is found on the internet cut and pasted. It is easily obtained if desired.

Regards Mustardseed

My first argument would go something like this.

If we follow your line of arguments, Muhammad was having a revelation from God because he foresaw certain scientific issues. However he was not the only one who "saw" the future and who did not believe that "the earth was flat". Many folks did.

It is in my opinion illogical to alledge, that just because certain statements,  later to be confirmed as fact, are found in the  pages of the Koran, it is subsequently written by God.

If that was the case anyone who makes statements, not presently understood by the masses, would be another Mohammad. Bill Gates, Einstein, Hawkins etc etc all have made statements later to be confirmed as facts, they would fall in this category.

The ability to forsee the future, then becomes the definition of a Miracle and a subsequent connection to God.

Regards Mustardseed 

And I say you and the Koran are wrong . In my opinion and experience those who preach the Koran as a fundemental unquestionable truth are bigots and not seeking the TRUTH , but instead trying to convince and controll unstable minds, not unlike certain fundementalists Christians. If you want to debate this issue please be my guest

Regards Mustardseed

My intention is certainly not to hurt anyone.  My only intention is to expose the truth to those who are blind to it.  I have no problem with Christians.  I have no problem with anyone of any religion.  I agree that religions promote love and good morals.  However, they have bad aspects to them along with the good aspects.  For example, relgion has caused more deaths to humans than any other force on earth.  Religions instill fear in innocent people, causing them to be afraid of doing or saying somthing that goes against their religion for fear of eternal punishment.  They present people with an idea that what they say is the truth and nothing but the truth, and it is a sin to explore futher.  Therefore, people are not able to raise their awareness, their consciousness is not able to expand and they are stuck in a state of false love and fear.

Well that might be your motive and I do applaud you for it however remember that the truth is subjective. You yourself consider, what you "know" to be "the truth" but it is infact only your opinion and research. Many of the claims you make are based on your own experiences and nothing ultimate. I am sure that you yourself would strongly resent being approached on the street and barraged with the "truth" as the fundamentalists see it. Their claims would be offensive to you. Am I right?. Muslims as well as just about every religious person on the planet, have their opinion of what the "truth" is. In my opinion such barrages is inconsistent with the goal of the AP, or even free speech, freedom of religion or what have you. It is a covert attempt to proselyte, something that would not be accepted if it was written by a Christian. The entire AP is infact to many, not only Christians, but countless others, a lie and inconsistent with their experiences and research. If you do insist on such a style I would suggest you post it on one of the many Christian apologist sites and start discussing it with folks who make it their "fight" to discuss and argue such matters. Posting it here in a forum of like minded, (that is folks who would tend to agree with you), only further cements you in your opinion and therefore will not aid you in actually examining your claims.

Christianity is not revealed as a myth by your post. Your claims are merely a footnote, a thought, and a .......claim. It is a theory and not conclusive. Now keep in mind that I do not fault you for having this belief, we all subscribe to beliefsystems, and part of believing in something includes disbelieving something too. What I do bring to your attention is  your style. Namecalling slights and the like never convinced anyone, for as you will see later in your life, you can bring a horse to water but not force him to drink, and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

All the best to you in your life

Regards Mustardseed

[The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible]

(The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible.)


Hi everybody. I rarely have time to get on the net these days but once in a while I do get to check my mail and peek at any new threads posted. Mostly I prefer to let people rant if they attack Christianity, as I accept the fact that we are not all at the same place in life and our different approaches to life, faith and beliefs vary according to who we are, what we have been taught, and what we have experienced in life. I did however read the post above and would like to comment. It is not my intent to get into any heated arguments so just take the comment for whet it is worth. It's just my 2 cents.

I read the entire post and though I agree with parts of it, it is too long to answer, it is simply too much work to research. I can however assure you that it is a very biased interpretation and not entirely correct. Basically it is a barrage of information that would take several weeks to verify or debunk. Posts like this serve their purpose, they affect people, but they are not fair and certainly do not serve the greater good i.e. that of finding the truth.

The manner and style is intimidating and insulting to say the least, and I do not foresee many Christians, be they PhD or otherwise wanting to answer it. Maybe that is what was intended!!. It is very obvious that the author is convinced that Christians (all) are a pitiful group of individuals, mindless idiots who hide in horror from the TRUTH (as he sees it), but this is so very wrong. We do not. However, we keep the faith, for as the Bible says "the preaching of the cross is to (unbelievers) foolishness but to us that are saved it is the power of God".

Those of us who believe in Christ do not need acceptance by folks like the author here, we are quite content to live our lives by the recipe of what we see written. It is true that a lot of wars have been fought in the name of Christ but so what. Those who fight wars need excuses and just because they pick Christianity as their "excuse" they do not become the spokesmen for Christianity. Unjust wars are just that... unjust wars.

Beware that you do not tear down something you do not understand and hurt people who have done you no harm my friend. The Bible (New Testament) and the account of Jesus is a testament to LOVE, and much good has been done following its teaching as well. If you are going to present a factual picture you should not forget that. If you are bent on venting your own frustrations however go ahead, you seem to be doing it with a vengeance and your irony sarcasm and name calling speaks for itself. What you fling out into the universe will return to you, if it is love you will reap love, if it is degradation and hate you will reap the same.

If you do not believe, it is your choice, and I support you in that decision, but if I choose to believe give me the freedom to do so, without attacking me and maligning me, with said slurs and biased observation.

Regards Mustardseed   

This is a common misconception given the recent image the west has given Islam.  I for one follow Islam by the book and I can quote many verses that denounce violence unless you are attacked first or oppressed/living under occupation.

Peace

Thats the point, this is the line Osama uses, that you are oppressed, i.e. living under western oppression, and as a matter of fact you are. The west has got the arab world by the b...., and is draining it of its riches (oil). Once there is no more oil in the east, you can have your countries and start killing yourselves again (Shia vs Sunni).