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Her research is still interesting.

Stookie_, that was interesting. I actually interpret that as another
indication that LDs are different from OBEs.

[scientific studies using scientific methods]

Btw, Susan Blackmore? Really? Isn't she the parapsychologist who claimed to know for sure that there is no afterlife? I wouldn't call her a scientist. She's worse than Stephen Hawkings she is - and you know what I think of him. I've seen her mug on Newscientist - she's not worthy of being there.

You are probably correct in stating that psychologist researcher Susan Blackmore
doesn't acknowledge the existence of any afterlife. But still, she is a scientist and
as such she has made scientific studies using scientific methods.

Her conclusion is that LDs are different phenomenas than OBEs. I don't think
it matters that she doesn't believe that an OBE is really a paranormal/astral
event.

She has made her research, for example:


Susan Blackmore published in Lucidity Letter 7(1), 1988 an article from the
Proceedings of the European Symposium on Lucid Dream Research titled
Lucid Dreams And OBES (my bolds):


"...this highlights the difference between OBEs and lucid dreams.
It is difficult to have an OBE deliberately because you have to get
the normal model of self out of the way first.

In a survey (Blackmore, 1986) I found that the people who had spontaneous
OBEs tended also to have flying dreams and mystical experiences while those
who had deliberate OBEs were the ones with good dream control skills; able
to stop and start dreams at will, wake themselves up out of dreams or choose
dreams.

Having a lucid dream requires something else again. The problem is not
to get a solid model of self out of the way but rather to create a good enough
one in the first place. Only with a reasonable model of self can you realise that
you are asleep and dreaming. This makes clear the greatest difference between
the waking OBE and the lucid dream - for all their superficial resemblance.

In the OBE the state is constrained by the constant danger of the normal
model of self reasserting itself. It will then take over again as "reality" and
the world of imagination is lost. In contrast the lucid dream is constrained
by the danger of falling back into deeper sleep and losing the tentative
model of self which made the lucidity possible.

The potential of the two states is then quite different.

The OBEr is really in a deeper illusion. She imagines that the world she
sees is the physical world as it would be seen with her eyes open, that is,
she is misled into mistaking a memory model for a sensory one. Research
which seeks for actual astral bodies or paranormal effects in the OBE is
just perpetuating this confusion.

By contrast the lucid dreamer is well aware of the illusory nature of
the dream - indeed it is this which defines the lucidity. However the
OBEr has the greater potential. If only she can see through the illusion
and realize that this is a world of the imagination then anything is possible.
Once free of the constraints of the normal self model it is possible to explore
everything the mind is capable of from complex scenes to complete openness
or emptiness. Meanwhile the lucid dreamer, however lucid, is forever limited
by being asleep."


Interesting.

Blackmore draws the conclusion from her research that because the OBE:er is
perceived as more real, it must therefore be an illusion. I think it interesting that
someone who completely rejects the astral/paranormal actually reaches a
conclusion that LDs are not OBEs.

As Blackmore is a psychologist I guess that she really is interested in the OBE:er
who "realizes" that the OBE is an illusion, and thus the "self" is a creation to
make new fantastic discoveries about the human mind, but from a purely
physical perspective.


I think it's easy to question her conclusions, but anyone reading the result of
her research has to praise her for making keen observations on the differences
between OBEs and LDs.


The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

[scientific methods & studies]

Some of you probably know Stephen LaBerge, Ph. D. The author of Lucid Dreaming
and two (or three) more books (at least one co-authored).

In his second book, LaBerge wrote that OBEs are a form of dream, as he doesn't
believe in any non-physical "astral" phenomena. But...

But Laberge later wrote an article together with Lynne Levitan in the publication
NIGHTLIGHT 3(2-3), 1991, called OTHER WORLDS: OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES AND LUCID DREAMS.

The article relies on many scientists' discoveries like psychologist Susan Blackmore


From the article, which is based on scientific methods & studies:

"...OBEs are quite plainly different from lucid dreams...

...OBEs were more than four times more likely in WILDs than in DILDs.

Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough
to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible."


I don't consider the study conclusive, and they also mention that
EEG measurement of brain waves are not an exact method!

This article is old, and I wonder where LaBerge stands today on
the subject of LDs not being OBEs. I guess he still acts from a
purely physical perspective.

The EEG equipment may also have improve over those 20 years

Anyone enlighten me.

I want to enjoy all the OBEs I end up experiencing, and I need a strategy next time this happens.

On an slightly unrelated note, I am hearing disembodied voices speaking to me behind me. Yeah, they are pretty scary and definitely freak me out as they say some pretty f&*ked up stuff, but I have an astral IQ high enough to discount them and focus on what I am trying to accomplish.

Have u had any success with NEW, gathering a lot of energy a few hours before OBE attempt?

The disembodied voices, have you tried to contact them, face them with your minds eye, tried to visualized them. Send them love and acceptance and allow them into your heart. Hug them and let them enter your non-physical body. Accept the fear and absorb it until it becomes part of you. They could be lonely Aspects of Self who want to re-join you.

Really cool.

And also your notice of reality fluctuations.

...what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question

It's a fair question.

Monroe defined dreams to be in F 22 as this link shows:

"Lucid dreaming is Monroe's Focus 22 state."

---


Edit: But notice that some other skilled APers have reported meeting dreaming people in other Focuses. For example can people with special interests travel up to at least Focus 27 if they have certain intentions with them from waking reality. They may still be in a regular dream state, never become lucid and won't remember their dream, but they can go from F 22 to F 27 if they are in the right state of mind of wanting spiritual growth or curiosity.

[normal Stage 1 REM]

I found an interesting article which seems to be written by the late
David Scott Rogo (1950 - 1990), author of Leaving the Body.

The article's is in Lucidity Letter 4(2), December, 1985, p. 43.

One interesting observation is:


"...the most consistent finding about the lucid dream is that it occurs within
the context of normal Stage 1 REM sleep. The only exception to this rule is
that some lucid dreams may occur during sleep onset...

...several psychophysiological studies of gifted OBE subjects have in fact been
made. The results indicate that OBEs emerge from a wide variety of brain states,
with no consistency present between the EEG records from one subject to another.

...Gabbard and Twemlow demonstrates that OBEs do not necessarily occur during
clearly-defined sleep. This fact alone should keep us from facilely equating OBEs
with lucid dreams."


Also I should point out that my link to Robert Peterson contained a table from the last
two specialists in the quote above.

So now we have at least 6 skilled persons in this area of OBE studies who describe various
details which indicates that LDs are not OBEs: Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow
and Scott Rogo.

[Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson]

It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*.  Understand the difference.

And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it.  Enough is enough Pauli.

I've read old posts and new posts on this forum. And you and some other persons have stated over and over again that LDs are the same as OBEs.

More than a hundred posts!

Hundred "spams".

I don't kid you.

You and others have been writing the forum with more than hundreds posts about something which can be considered a lie.

It can be considered a lie, because you completely ignore skilled projectors like Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson. And you continue to spread your claim which at least seems unsubstantiated. Your claim is unbacked and I would like to point you to read the arguments by Peterson. He has a whole table of arguments. It's in a link on page 3 of the forum thread you threatens to remove linking to.

Why should I be silenced when you are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?

And you are completely ignoring those who have both arguments, experiences and authority in this field.

Why do you want to spread this kind of statement?

Is it a Frank thing?

Astral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it

They're all the same thing that describe activities that don't take place in this physical reality.

Not all agree with that.

For example Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson thinks different, see the thread LDs are not OBEs

I also think it's a little deceptive to not mention the objections from several of the great authors. It's kind of a "Frank behavior". Frank assigned statements to Monroe, statements which I never have recognized Monroe with.

It's deceptive.

Sensations are a sign of progress, yes.

If you want to argue against my theory, your only option is to explain why my equation will not detect anything useful.

I think an experiment would be more useful as theories may not portray the reality exactly.

And you still depend on electrical force between your electron and those particles in a ring. The distance doesn't matter. If there are electrical forces measurable there will be a photon exchange.

I think of the wave function as a cloud. That cloud consists from the start of one electron only. As the electron moves forward it emits a photon which stays close to the electron. The cloud now consists of an electron and a photon. The farther the electron moves, the more energy is transferred to the photon, and the bigger the cloud/wavefunction becomes in volume as the photon swirls around together with the electron in bigger and bigger orbits.

Then you make some kind of electric force apply to the cloud, and no matter how little that electric force is...

The photon then moves out of the cloud, shrinking the cloud to one electron only which is said to "collapse" the cloud/wavefunction and precisely defining the position of the electron at the same time.

I don't think this is a strictly scientific view, but I think it's important to know that any electric force releases a photon from the electron, removing the interference pattern.

Maybe someone else knows more and have a better model explaining this?

Remember, Satan is an Angel.

Satan is the highest Angel.

So Satan is good.


A good Angel, who punishes all those evil, in Hell.

Lucifer, Light Bringer.

Let him in.

And how about F. Kepple ...? Well, even they do support it ...!

I don't think Frank supported reincarnations, as he did NOT support the concept of
past lives -> see this link where Frank wrote:


"So to fly directly in the face of the zillions of mystics who claim otherwise,
none of us can possibly have a "past" life. ...

We have never been them and we will never become them. Sorry to anyone
who ever paid good money for a "past life reading" and all that."

---


Edit: See this link too:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/reincarnation_frank_kepple_vs_bruce_moen-t31327.0.html

Is any of this really an issue? Would someone really be disappointed by "phasing" rather than a more classical exit or vice-versa?

If u get stuck in F 22 at all times, perhaps u want to know why?

Now go for the $1 000 000 Randi test.

Have u considered the possibility that a member from ur I-There temporarily takes over ur body so no Negs can get hold of it?

My theory depends on the electric force between the ring of particles and the particle going through the double slit, so lets say they are all electrons this time.

I think that each time there is electric force interaction between a single moving electron, and anything else, the single electron exchanges a photon. That breaks the wave function and defines the electron's position in space.

evil..?

he is good

he punishes the evil in hell

I vote 4 OBE

Request "Awareness now!".

Next time u see a person, ask: "What do you represent?"

In one of his first books Monroe had experiences with entering the wrong body.

I don't think so, just face it, and don't fight it.

I sort of have, but I seldom do the actual move of people and have only seen people move to outdoor places like lawns or once a train station. Ginny and Selski have done retrievals, and you may find their old posts here. I'm doing retrievals in my minds eye (Moen style) and not in a classic OBE way.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/retrievals_old_man_amp_engineer-t33991.0.html
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/retrieval_white_collar_business_man-t34102.0.html
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/retrievals_aspects_of_self_werewolf_amp_deformed_man-t34118.0.html

We are all the numbers.

We're just number!