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Will's diagram does a good job of showing how we do know more while OOB but "return" without everything that we knew. The dotted line Beedeekin described would show how we do return with some knowledge and why other phenomena occur.

At 5, I pulled a friend away from his body. He was unconscious and floating above it. I dragged him through the house walls and sort of awakened him in the field behind my garden. We used to play there. He was lethargic but remembered it. He told his parents and I was banned from going near any of them.
I can imagine what his parents must have thought when I was confronted and told them what was in their house. I never went upstairs in the physical. Witchcraft and demon ... ( it was in the 1960's)
Keep it to yourself, a few people get somewhat upset. It's not their thing and leave it at that.
Don't stirr the hornets nest. Their stings are nasty. Lol.

You should write a book about your experiences and insight.

I don't think it would be useful to remove all fear.

The 'fight or flight' mechanism is a requirement for survival... even in this day and age.

When I pick up a power tool like a chainsaw or use a circular saw, there is a sense of fear of cutting my hands off or hurting somebody else. Sure you could break that apart and say it is a respect of a tool but it is fear that creates the respect.

If I was being chased by a lion I don't think a no fear approach would help me much.

Touche.

There is no breaking that apart. Fear is the root of every negative emotion as well as positive caution. If I was being chased by a lion, it would have to be in the NPR. No doubt in my mind.

That's because in this reality, I wouldn't bother with running from the lion. Running would imply the hope of getting away and there's no chance of that for me. I smoke too damn much nowadays, I'm winded just typing this.

Welcome.

Don't worry about the different terms. I can see how being an Atheist is a really good thing. So long as you keep an open mind and don't discredit what you are experiencing for the sake of staying in your own comfort zone, this is one of the best ways to go about this.

I hope you really are ready.

That's a fair diagram William. I would maybe put a broken dotted line seeping through; sometimes insight or a tiny aspect of understanding will be triggered by things in my everyday existence and a spark of understanding will manifest. Just like dream recall but more powerful.

I can remember new data I collect but not the ambient understanding I have when present in the nonphysical. I don't always get deeply into the holistic state... the deeper I go the more intense it gets but the less I understand or rather the ability to find explanation for.

It begins to get very hard to explain... again... another example of it becoming more removed from 'Ben' and closer to my higher self and that loss of insight thing. I am being very sincere and truthful here and have never really gone this far into describing it. I'll have to thank you for that.

I would be interested to hear if anybody else experiences this.

Yes, that would account for the revelations (nothing in the sense of Biblical) we get during waking hours while concentrating on other tasks.

As well as the de javu (sp?) moments and other little things. No data is always completely blocked to everyone.

Very true!

It begs the question? Does the master ever feel fear, or is the feeling of fear at an all time low?

The fear would have to be at an all time low, right?. Or maybe he has redefined what fear is to him.

Hi, fuzzywuzzy. RTZ projections do become rarer for whatever reasons. I think most people just get bored with them and would rather go to Mars and meet aliens from Neptune while watching a game of intergalactic hyper-ball.

Don't worry about your husband's free will in your OOBE's. He "leaves" everynight when he dreams anyways. If you could pull him out, he would most likely just appear drunk and spaced out so he wouldn't be any fun anyways.

It's a shame that some people are so close minded but can you really blame them? We've been conditioned to believe that this stuff is nothing more than a dream and it's crazy to believe otherwise. That's true but what's a dream?

I'm glad you found the pulse.

Thankyou so much for your kind words. Hard to believe, but I'm still practising courage now. It's definately one of my weaker muscles;-)

Without fear, there can be no courage or bravery. We are only fooling ourselves if we think we have conquered all of our personal fears.

It does indeed leave me with questions but I will answer them with my experiences to come. Thank you (:

Well said.

So with that good ole' sump of information, Here's my questions to anyone, And if anyone themselves has questions to ask me, don't be afraid.  wink

1. What was this Falling sensation? Anyone else had similar experiences? Is it a part of vibrations?

2. Was that a Lucid Dream, Or Projection?

3. How did it seem like it had been hours, and the entire dream go on for so long ( I remember all of it in detail ), but it only have been an hour?

4. What was up with that sound and flash in my hypnagogic? Anyone else experience things like this?

5. Any advice or tips on this?

That's all for now, Thanks again to anyone who can help me out.

Thank you for the encouragement. Many of us here are currently trying to overcome our fear of posting. It is uncanny how you sensed that.

A couple of things.

First, I am impressed that a young man such as yourself, actually knows proper grammar. Of course we all make mistakes but who wants to go back and fix everyone? This is unfortunately a rare thing these days. Kudos to you and your teachers.

Secondly, far be it for me to preach to you, but why in the heck are you messing around with all these hallucinogens at your young age? There's plenty of time for that exploration later if you choose to.

1. The falling sensation is just one of many that are associated with having an OOBE.Most of us feel it but not all the time.

2. You didn't give us a whole lot to go on to make a decision. That aside, there is little difference between a LD and a projection. We must all decide for ourselves what these differences are and what they mean.

3. For some reason, time usually passes for me the same as it does in this physical reality. The times that I have bothered to check were always with a quarter hour or so of what I assumed. I guess time passes differently for all of us but this has a lot to do with how engrossed we are in the experience.

4. When we wake up from a good sleep, we can fall into SP very quickly and be caught off guard. This sound and jolt that you felt were most likely attributed to SP.

5. Keep an open mind and the rest will follow.

Good luck.

Well, I guess 3 times a day does pay off. But how are you so sure that it was a projection? I mean I know thy I felt something but are you sure that it wasn't just a dream due to all the stuff I've been reading? I really think it's possible. I still can't get those events out of my head though! Thanks for the welcoming by the way.

I'm sure because all dreams are projections. The difference is how much awareness and control that we have. This should not diminish your idea of what an OOBE is. Instead, it should point out how easy and natural they are to have. Trust me, OOBE happen and are just as real as we are now in physical bodies. Trust me but don't believe me. Go see and decide for yourself. A lot of people have a problem with this view on OOBE's because they want to believe that their is something mystical about them. Well, they are but in the sense that main stream culture hasn't accepted that there is a non physical reality in which we are supposed to see and interact with.

Secondly, how many normal "dreams" do you realize that your body is still sleeping and you want to go look at it? What happens to many people during their first one is that they get over excited and get "sucked" back in. I have never felt this because I never knew that people described it this way. Others may describe it as a pull or something else. But the point is that you felt something that is very similar to many other experiences. Also the way you saw yourself as just a blob or outline is very common. I have only seen myself clearly a couple of times, the rest are just as you have described.

Hope that helps but I suspect that leaves you with more questions.

Welcome AJ. Since you just joined, I'll spare you some definitions that I have accepted but the short and skinny is that you definitely projected.

It would have been best if you had woke up right away so that you could have recalled the experience as well as the  "realness" of it. But beggars can't be choosers, I guess. What happens is that you drift intoo a deeper state of sleep and everything just gets classified as a dream. Ah...but what do you call a dream? Anyways, good job after only four days.

Haha! Me too! Sometimes I join right in! I'm also guilty of purposely doing weird things just to see reactions from people...

Like going to the dollar store dressed as Nightcrawler.

I've been kicked out of a Walmart before for being in a costume. My favorite was when I was with a friend in butterfly wings and I was in dragon wings... an old lady got really excited and started talking to her husband. "Look, honey! It's an ANGEL! AN ANGEL!" then she saw me "Oh! And honey! Look! It's a BAT! A BAT!" haha!

A costume is a lot different from other things, though. There is some security along with it. I used to get really embarrassed when people would come across me singing. @_@ Now... meh, to hell with it, if I feel like it, I feel like it, darnit!

I would have stopped and asked you a hundred questions. Though, they would all be benign and just curious in nature, somewhere around question thirty, you would most likely start reaching for a can of pepper spray fearing I wouldn't stop asking questions.

Let me carify a bit. I know dreams are projections. However, the key for me is this:
Before I started practicing, my dreams/projections/whatever you want to call them were very vague and abstract. Its much different now. For me, this new feeling of projecting is very different from the feeling of the dreaming I used to know. Its like being awake and asleep at the same time while recalling everything you see in great detail. Also, emotions are no longer a straight wash of happiness or fear. Now I get all the nuances of each thought and feeling just as I would in the pysical.
I guess everyone is different in what they experience.

Xanth was just pointing out that our level of awareness is what makes the difference. The level of awareness changes our perception of what a dream is. You seem to already get this concept. You don't have to believe this though. Get some more experiences and decide for yourself. No need to rush the journey but it's hard to wait once you start.

Dreams without your full awareness will start to seem different because once you start projecting, it is hard to notice more even when you're not trying.

That was a haunting video. It looked like a zombie apocalypse on tv which of course, I thought was cool for half a sec. Then I realized how many lives this destroyed and nothing could be more uncool.

The man's outlook and laugh reminded me of my dad. Just a simple hard worker, centered around family.

I admire his take on saving the animals. I'm not there yet as far as my spirituality goes but I'm not doubting that will change in me as well.

Thanks for the link. I am always fascinated by these perspectives.

These are great thoughts. I am just now realizing that I meditate everyday but I never considerate it that. It no longer seems like a chore to me. I compare it to brushing my teeth. Just don't feel right without doing it.

We do differ slightly on the use of our aim of discipline. While I agree with it's usefulness, I no longer feel like I am competing with anyone. Mostly because of everything else you have said.

Great post.

AW, and I was just getting used to that "woman in deep thought" pose.

Ditto.

When I use the term "Human Drama" it is always in relation to such things as warfare, politics, religion, competitiveness – such as underhanded business practices of skulduggery, crime (and its associated braches) – those things which distract the human individual from exploring the deeper significance of their self awareness.

If you can name any of these human drams you think lead to joy, please do so and together we can examine these to find the evidence of joy.

In light of your definition, it is obvious that there is no joy to be had in your interpretation of drama.

I now understand what you mean now that you put the post under the aspect of consciousness clause.

You have an excellent command of the English language and have almost reinvented it. The aspect of my consciousness that I bring to an internet forum applies human relation skills and interprets what it reads under that standard. In other words, I usually expect something to mean what it says since the goal is to communicate a single idea to a larger audience. I'm still figuring you out Will. I don't think I'll be disappointed.

I formerly thought that you were nit picking every little thing that we write. Now I think that you are just showing us a courtesy and take the time to address everything, which is just being considerate. But then again, you might just be a Droid.

Always be thankful for these short RTZ projections. These help to validate the experiences subjectively. As far as knowing for sure, this just comes down to your awareness. If you have to question your reality, it is most likely a non-physical one.

These are the ones where you can get your objective evidence from. Like meet up with another astral traveler and swap emails and stuff like that. I've never done that as I guess you already know, but I'm sure it's possible.

Remember it's all real, it's just not always physical.

Your mirrors being reversed are a common thing. I'm not sure why that is though. It doesn't mean it's any less real or valid.

If you went to a hospital and asked them to do an MRI of your pineal gland for fear of it becoming calcified I hope they look at you like a fool and kick you out for wasting their time. That's like going to the hospital and asking for a scan because you fear your nails are growing.

DR just said to check if it was ok, not calcified. Seems to me that so little is actually known, that they wouldn't know what a good or bad one looked like.

Maybe my rushed response wasn't addressing the AI concept fully. I was referring to when AI has evolved in a system where everything we need, use , manufacture etc.
A global system totally run by technology. It's superior to the near future hybrid systems not yet developed. If such a system gained an awareness of itself where it was a non automated series of subroutines but a self programming thinking system magnitudes faster than the present day technology. It would self sustain. It eventually could generate an ethical mode of operation but we would be removed from service before this developed. It's basically an evolving and conciously aware self sustaining life form. It's earliest stages of evolution wouldn't be too far from the bacteria from the primodial soup. However the accelerated learning processes within such a system would enable its progression billions of times faster than any biological system.

The ethical mode that an A.I would likely adapt would just be one of pure efficiency. Kind of like Will's idea of consciousness as well as Cambell's with the reduction of entropy. The difference is I think Cambell's model allows for individualism where as Will seems to be leading to a merge or a single mesh.

This type of ethics would have no room for sloppy and wasteful humans. Or maybe they will worship us as Gods<sarcasm.

But as I have claimed – it is most likely there is already an aspect of humanity which is working together as a well oiled machine, not involved in the human drama but involved in alternate focus aligned with the agenda of Consciousness – which this thread topic is exploring.

This seems to be an existence devoid of any pleasure. Human drama leads to joy and much more positive feelings.

This agenda of consciousness does not sound logical. Why would consciousness want to work so cooperatively so as be compared to a well oiled machine. Will, I am no supporter of jumping on bandwagons but why would this be a fruitful alternate view of the agenda of consciousness compared to Cambell's.

This sounds like pure misery for no meaning other than gaining knowledge. Where is the spirituality in this agenda? Or is the lack of it, the purpose?

This is actually where we will see if consciousness can arise from a 'simulated' or 'invented' intelligence. Whatever the claim stipulates there is still a possibility that consciousness awareness could arise from a self improving intelligence... given certain parameters.

A simulation within a simulation.

Given the power of consciousness, I would never rule anything as impossible.

He seems to be a man of the people and has usually rejected most luxuries provided by the church. There may be some hope in this Pope.

Why would you put a magnet to your head? And what is this suppose to show?

Anyways, sounds like you've been reading some crazy stuff. This forum is a one stop shop for the serious.

The pineal gland is not something I ever gave much thought about but I know that it is supposedly responsible for a lot of the experiences. Since we don't need a body to exist, I never give this kind of stuff much attention.

Good luck and I'm sure some helpful replies are forthcoming.