In The Beginning...

[Wi11iam]

If you can answer these questions, I will not post on this thread again unless it becomes disorderly.

Evolve to what?

What's the end game here?

Why is this important to you?

  How does this change your physical existence/reality, who you are and why you are here?

...and lastly, what can you do to change it?

Okay Guardian Lion Heart I accept those terms....with modifications for you to consider.

1:  That as and when I answer the questions the answers are discussed rather than evaluated through any belief systems and cast aside as pointless on account of said belief systems.

2:  That you post on this thread even if there is no threat of disorderly behaviour as if your input had value beyond the mere tasks of keeping the order – your input has value...I have already seen this and would like to see more.

3:  That I am granted now, a time out to remove the residual emotional stuff which I have allowed to happen within my psyche – I need to wash in loosh for a bit.

Thanks

W

[Bedeekin]

PS Beady

You told me in the course of discussion that you were 'being' and had no agenda.
I replied that if I were to search your posts I would find your agenda.
Anyhoo – as it has unfolded you now tell me that you are a teacher – you experience the altered states and report your data of experience and you encourage others to learn to do the same.

That is your agenda – purpose – you are doing not just being.

Are we on the same page in relation to being and doing?

Oh... agenda on here... sorry. Yes.. to teach and encourage.. but here on this forum I like to teach yes.

In the UK... when somebody says agenda... it normally conveys a pointed finger of suspiciousness. "what is their agenda?" If someone has an agenda in my understanding it is that they harbour a secret that they hide because they are doing it 'under the radar' or hoodwinking others for their own personal gain.

It would have been easier to say... 'Bedeekin.. why do you come on here talking about OOBEs?'... I could have saved you the work and said "to teach, learn from and meet likeminded people".

I thought you meant in life.. my reason for existing and being.. Who I am... ME...  I also collect carnivorous plants... I have a dog.. I've been with my other half Kathryn for 23 years.. I love reading... adore nature and consider myself a budding entomologist... I love making things and that's what my career entails... art sculpture and the like. so I have many 'agendas' I suppose.

I tend not to report my data too much because it is mine and mine alone and to be fair it takes a lot of hard work and time. Maybe I will report it in the process of teaching but I don't talk about 90% of my experiences. for many reasons. One is I don't want to colour peoples experiences too much. I retort a lot of early anecdotal experiences because they were closer in quality and experience to those learning on hear.

I'm not sure why you are interested in my 'agenda' though. I am rarely interested in other peoples.

Are we on the same page?  I think we'll get there.

[Astralzombie]

No one had been arguing against you. We are debating your theory. I'm not playing a game of semantics with you either.

But I think it's safe to say that you are less presenting a theory and more of telling us what your beliefs are. And you of all people know that a belief without hard facts is just pseudo-knowledge. Thanks for the link, by the way. I've been reading all day.

I am very interested in discussing your answers to Lion's query. He's only pointing out the questions that we have asked as they are relevant to your position and your non-answers are hard to ignore.

We're all guilty of injecting some emotion into our posts and Lion was only wise to cool the tone.

You really are trapped in a belief system if you think differently when I tell you that Lion is only saying to cool it down (he's talking to all of us) a little because he doesn't want to see anyone feel like they aren't welcomed.

Give us all that much credit.

[Wi11iam]

Oh... agenda on here... sorry. Yes.. to teach and encourage.. but here on this forum I like to teach yes.

In the UK... when somebody says agenda... it normally conveys a pointed finger of suspiciousness. "what is their agenda?" If someone has an agenda in my understanding it is that they harbour a secret that they hide because they are doing it 'under the radar' or hoodwinking others for their own personal gain.

It would have been easier to say... 'Bedeekin.. why do you come on here talking about OOBEs?'... I could have saved you the work and said "to teach people and meet likeminded people".

I thought you meant in life.. my reason for existing and being.. Who I am... ME...  I also collect carnivorous plants... I have a dog.. I've been with my other half Kathryn for 23 years.. I love reading... adore nature and consider myself a budding entomologist... I love making things and that's what my career entails... art sculpture and the like. so I have many 'agendas' I suppose.

I tend not to report my data too much because it is mine and mine alone and to be fair it takes a lot of hard work and time. Maybe I will report it in the process of teaching but I don't talk about 90% of my experiences. for many reasons. One is I don't want to colour peoples experiences too much. I retort a lot of early anecdotal experiences because they were closer in quality and experience to those learning on hear.

I'm not sure why you are interested in my 'agenda' though. I am rarely interested in other peoples.

I am interested in your agenda perhaps more than you are interested in mine?

I don't get that.

Agenda is perhaps a 'dark' word - whatever.

You have purpose - I have purpose.  That they be considered 'belief systems' is particularly undecided and should not cloud the concept of adjoining these agendas in an...objective manner...'tis all.  Jig liked what he Saw.  Get the picture.

True, 'how we arrived at this place' might well have involved belief systems, but these dont have to be the energy behind agendas...they might have already vanquished quite naturally so...especially if they are not kept secret from one another.

Upon further deeper reflection....

Understand the whole agenda of the self...yes here there and everywhere.  Combine those rather than see them separate - almost non connected.  Bring them together as they truly really are - bring them out.  Thing is, do we dare give one another that permission, let alone dare expose our 'selfs'?

Watch this space I guess....Permission to get the ball rolling...

[Wi11iam]

No one had been arguing against you. We are debating your theory. I'm not playing a game of semantics with you either.

But I think it's safe to say that you are less presenting a theory and more of telling us what your beliefs are. And you of all people know that a belief without hard facts is just pseudo-knowledge. Thanks for the link, by the way. I've been reading all day.

I am very interested in discussing your answers to Lion's query. He's only pointing out the questions that we have asked as they are relevant to your position and your non-answers are hard to ignore.

We're all guilty of injecting some emotion into our posts and Lion was only wise to cool the tone.

You really are trapped in a belief system if you think differently when I tell you that Lion is only saying to cool it down (he's talking to all of us) a little because he doesn't want to see anyone feel like they aren't welcomed.

Give us all that much credit.

Understood.

[Wi11iam]

Can I sing a song now please.

[Astralzombie]

Can I sing a song now please.

Sure. Clear your mind and center your focus. Then let her rip.

But be advised that I've been reading MBT all day and I have some ammo that is new to me but you've dodged in the past plenty already.

But I think I can still come across without sounding like a TOEbot.

[Wi11iam]

Sure. Clear your mind and center your focus. Then let her rip.

But be advised that I've been reading MBT all day and I have some ammo that is new to me but you've dodged in the past plenty already.

But I think I can still come across without sounding like a TOEbot.

Okay - well this is for you IAB... hope you enjoy.

As to your study of MBT, be advised, while I like some of it I don't subscribe to it all, and that should be obvious.  It was after all why I was told to shape up or ship out.  Still if you think I have been dodgy in the past plenty in relation to MBTOE, and it is relevant, please feel free to bring it to the table.

[Clears Throat - tunes guitar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMCWH-xfqQA&list=PL6fZF9xJoBFTCNSMxyLoHi74l8TvWhTKl&index=11

[Wi11iam]

There is ongoing discussion which has a potential to evolve if permitted.

If you can answer these questions, I will not post on this thread again unless it becomes disorderly.

Evolve to what?

What's the end game here?

Why is this important to you?

 How does this change your physical existence/reality, who you are and why you are here?

...and lastly, what can you do to change it?

There is ongoing discussion which has a potential to evolve if permitted.

Q:  Evolve to what?

A:  To where it will.  That is the process of evolution

Q:  What's the end game here?

A: There is none that I foresee.  I guess 'the end' will work itself out.

Q: Why is this important to you?

A:  Well it seems more worthwhile letting it find its own way than shutting it down or deleting it.

Q: ...and lastly, what can you do to change it?

A:  I would rather let it evolve naturally, and the changes take care of themselves with the participants directives .

[Bedeekin]

I think that maybe this has evolved its full course as a thread. The 'end game' has arrived.

[Wi11iam]

I think that maybe this has evolved its full course as a thread. The 'end game' has arrived.

Well I hope the data regarding the nature of 'The Astral Realm' as being itself a simulation will be helpful to you in your travels and teachings Beady.

See through you on the 'other side' -

Cheers!   

[Bedeekin]

Same to you Wi11iam.

[Szaxx]

Akin to a T.V. serial, it ends just as it starts to get interesting.
Abundant ideas with insufficient direct answers. Time to ponder upon the theoretical offerings.
Indeed, as always this will unfold in time. Unfortunately all present will have made their journey onwards to the greater reality.
The truth is out there.

[Wi11iam]

Akin to a T.V. serial, it ends just as it starts to get interesting.
Abundant ideas with insufficient direct answers. Time to ponder upon the theoretical offerings.
Indeed, as always this will unfold in time. Unfortunately all present will have made their journey onward to the greater reality.
The truth is out there.

Again, in relation to 'Travelling' within the Astral - that vast realm...it is often assumed that compared to this physical universe it is 'more real' which may be the case but it is in itself a simulated thing and it is not too difficult to understand the significance of this insight or how it might change the way the individual 'travels' and what the individual might then experience if the data is not overlooked.

It may not make any difference but then it may...in the same way that knowing there is more than this physical universe - as those who have experienced the alternate realities would and do verify - and how such knowledge potentially can and does change the way an individual views and participates within the physical universe...the 'greater reality' has to be the Realm of no beginnings rather than only whatever the Astral offers - as vast and as complex as it is, it is not everything.

[Bedeekin]

Again, in relation to 'Travelling' within the Astral - that vast realm...it is often assumed that compared to this physical universe it is 'more real' which may be the case but it is in itself a simulated thing and it is not too difficult to understand the significance of this insight or how it might change the way the individual 'travels' and what the individual might then experience if the data is not overlooked.

It may not make any difference but then it may...in the same way that knowing there is more than this physical universe - as those who have experienced the alternate realities would and do verify - and how such knowledge potentially can and does change the way an individual views and participates within the physical universe...the 'greater reality' has to be the Realm of no beginnings rather than only whatever the Astral offers - as vast and as complex as it is, it is not everything.

indeed it isn't.

Do you maybe think that we... and maybe I... think that the nonphysical or 'astral' is a more real reality than this one? I do hope not.. because I think this is the reason there isn't such a big reaction towards such a described theory/revelation... from me anyhoo.

I do consider it is a 'top-down' situation... but in no way is the NPMR any more or less a construct than this one or others than may precede it.

Do you consider that knowledge further than that which we are currently equipped to understand is actually useful within this/your particular life as you live now?

Do you not consider that when you wake from this 'dream' you may do what you normally do when you wake from a dream and think "Why was I running from that giant blue monkey?"

[Wi11iam]

indeed it isn't.

Do you maybe think that we... and maybe I... think that the nonphysical or 'astral' is a more real reality than this one? I do hope not.. because I think this is the reason there isn't such a big reaction towards such a described theory/revelation... from me anyhoo.

I do consider it is a 'top-down' situation... but in no way is the NPMR any more or less a construct than this one or others than may precede it.

Do you consider that knowledge further than that which we are currently equipped to understand is actually useful within this/your particular life as you live now?

Do you not consider that when you wake from this 'dream' you may do what you normally do when you wake from a dream and think "Why was I running from that giant blue monkey?"

Oh hi Beady - you gave me the impression there was nothing more for you with this thread... 

I think you might need to elaborate your concerns above...I do not quiet understand the angle.  Perhaps the best place to start is in sharing exactly why you reacted to the opening post as you did.  If it wasn't a type of sarcasm then what was it about the statement which had you reacting as you did?

It seems some travelers are unduly protective of their own understanding through their experiences of what the Astral is,and this is reflected in their responses.  That is understandable I guess, but as you know, there are differing versions about the whole subject and nothing concrete about any of them in regard to agreement and being on the same page.  It is more akin to say, religions...say the Christian religion, which has certain shared fundamentals but branches off into different directions and groupings of like-minded individuals who form these groups for the reasons they do but can be antagonistic toward anything/one whom might be seen as threatening to their particular doctrine.

There are elements of the 'more real' than the physical reality in regards to the Astral, I have experienced this myself and it is natural because it is this Domain from which we came from to get to this one and to which we go back to, so that may have a lot to do with it.  But essentially 'we' do not actually come from or otherwise have our beginning in that domain...essentially, if we are at our core, Consciousness - then effectively we have no beginning.  Beginnings are constructs - we are not constructs - we are that which experience constructs.

If we were say...watching...observing the physical unfolding of life on earth from a less personal participating hands on sort of involvement, yes we could more clearly see the patterns and where Consciousness is heading in relation to its involvement with the Physical Universe - specifically to do with life bearing planets which offer it form in which to experience through...and I am not suggesting the construct is less real because Consciousness decides what is real anyway.  But it also knows that the only REAL thing is Itself.  Everything else is construct for Its greater good.
Likewise - if we could observe the Astral from a less participating role we can likewise see what it is, and how it performs as a construct - how it works, what its properties are and what might be the best way to work with it.

The Astral is one of those constructs, albeit had its beginning long before the physical universe...as far as the patterns go - although I do think that beliefs systems developed through Consciousness involving Itself within the Physical Universe do have an influence on the Astral environment - not all of it - but a part of it...like I have already suggested and agreed to others suggesting that some of the constructs within the Astral are a creation of the human imagination which derive through physical experience and were not in existence within the Astral until Consciousness began to interact with the physical universe and belief systems were developed as a result.

[Wi11iam]

Do you consider that knowledge further than that which we are currently equipped to understand is actually useful within this/your particular life as you live now?

If we are not equipped to understand then it wouldn't be 'knowledge' - it would be experience which we don't understand and then in some cases in order to try and make sense of it, we make up something to help that process, which is natural but it is a good thing to make sure we don't fall into the trap of belief in relation to what we make up...we remain ever open minded and ready to drop the made up when new knowledge presents itself which contradicts any of the made up stuff.

I think we are equipped as Consciousness to understand the knowledge.  It is not so much about the experience - the experience is not the knowledge although yes, the two can be confused... Understanding Consciousness therefore is integral to refining knowledge -

In the case of knowing that there is a realm of no beginning, yes - this knowledge is likely very important to the individual who accepts it.  Accepting it is 'being equipped' - it is not that hard to understand really. We simply are able - we are equipped to integrate the 'no beginning' aspect because that is who we are...if we are not 'equipped' then something to examine as to why we are not, would be the belief systems we have developed about ourselves and who we are - and where those beliefs came from - are the most likely source of why we might consider why this particular knowledge is a struggle to adapt to and integrate with.

[Bedeekin]

Actually... I wouldn't have reacted like that if I thought you were being totally serious. I completely misread the way you said it. I explained my thought process of reading it and it was a mistake. I think I may have been in a silly mood that night. I apologise. I was being not sarcastic... but more... extracting the subjective comedy behind how I interpreted it. If I would I could erase that post and say... "explain?".

Please read these... and realise one of the ways I use the nonphysical...

http://bedeekinoobe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-lightsaber-experiment.html

http://bedeekinoobe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-arcimboldo-sculpture.html

I wrote them recently.. based on old news... but they might give you an example of one aspect of my USE of the nonphysical.

I don't actually hold a dearly held had-fast  philosophy of the nonphysical because of the vastness of the thing, and because I have realised how my own evolution has changed along the way. I don't think I have nailed it down and doubt I ever would. But I'm in no hurry to.

You are a different consciousness explorer to me. That much is obvious but I agree with everything you say if truth be known. The core anyway.

this..

The Astral is one of those constructs, albeit had its beginning long before the physical universe...as far as the patterns go - although I do think that beliefs systems developed through Consciousness involving Itself within the Physical Universe do have an influence on the Astral environment - not all of it - but a part of it...like I have already suggested and agreed to others suggesting that some of the constructs within the Astral are a creation of the human imagination which derive through physical experience and were not in existence within the Astral until Consciousness began to interact with the physical universe and belief systems were developed as a result.

Is absolutely my own thoughts, albeit put in your way. Obviously these aren't my thoughts... but I have observed as much.

[Wi11iam]

Well those two stories were interesting Ben.

Actually... I wouldn't have reacted like that if I thought you were being totally serious.

So now you understand I am serious.

You are a different consciousness explorer to me.

I am not exploring Consciousness - I am Consciousness exploring constructs.

[Astralzombie]

So now you understand I am serious.

Yes, so much so that is is concerning.

[Wi11iam]

Yes, so much so that is is concerning.

Certainly it appears the nature of individual experience is reflective of the individuals beliefs - it seems most travelers think that this is what is happening.
It may also be that when one is attached to their living body what they experience is fundamentally different than what will be experienced when their body dies and they no longer have the option of 'returning' to it.

There may also be a distinct difference between a trained ego experience and an untrained ego experience. 

From my observations it seems very clear that personal identification determines the nature of ones experiences even more than may be realized. 

There is no thing to be concerned about in knowing and thus identifying with 'that which has no beginning'. 

[Astralzombie]

Certainly it appears the nature of individual experience is reflective of the individuals beliefs - it seems most travelers think that this is what is happening.
It may also be that when one is attached to their living body what they experience is fundamentally different than what will be experienced when their body dies and they no longer have the option of 'returning' to it.

There may also be a distinct difference between a trained ego experience and an untrained ego experience. 

From my observations it seems very clear that personal identification determines the nature of ones experiences even more than may be realized. 


There is no thing to be concerned about in knowing and thus identifying with 'that which has no beginning'. 

I imagine that once the realization that returning to our physical form is no longer possible,we will be freed to see more, for the lack of a better term.

My concern for you is that you may be missing the forest for the leaf, much less the leaves or the tree.

I certainly do not deem you crazy or off your rocker, well....no more than the rest of us anyhow.

[Bedeekin]

its_all_bad...

There is no tree

[Wi11iam]

I imagine that once the realization that returning to our physical form is no longer possible,we will be freed to see more, for the lack of a better term.

My concern for you is that you may be missing the forest for the leaf, much less the leaves or the tree.

I certainly do not deem you crazy or off your rocker, well....no more than the rest of us anyhow.

Yes you might imagine that is the way it will be, but such imaginations might derive from the untrained ego persona, and may not apply when the death of the body changes the dynamic.

Indeed it appears to me from my data gathering that it may be that the travelers are focused upon the 'tree' of their experience – as vast to them as that tree does appear – and the forest is some place they (as untrained egos) do not want to venture – due perhaps to the threat such realization may have on that egos power and position as driver and decision maker.

'That which has a beginning is very attractive to the ego for obvious reasons – number one that it gave existence to said ego.

Let me assure you I am not bashing the ego or its importance – rather I am acknowledging its place in the scheme of things.  It is not the engine and while it can and often does assume the role of 'driver' – and it is good for it to take the wheel now and again – it needs the maturity and sensibility of knowing when to be the passenger.

From what I can gather, the individual is made up of at least three distinct parts or aspects – all connected with Consciousness.
One is the Ego, which is a mixture of many other Egos who have influenced the individual through the first stages of their 'life package'and almost always gives the Ego its primary identity, and which almost always is an incorrect identity.

Another is that which is often termed the 'Higher Self' – this aspect exists in both PMR and NPMR and compared to the Ego is far closer to the 'real you' to which the Ego most often usurps, most often without knowing it is the usurper...indeed 'crazy off your rocker' is one thing the Ego would like to avoid being labelled by other Egos as being...so venturing into that area of the 'tree' (let alone the 'forest') is an unlikely event while the Ego remains the driver.

Finally, the third aspect is the least known.  This aspect is like unto the whole forest, as the 'higher self' aspect is like unto the tree, as the ego aspect is like unto the leaf.

In one sense the pattern continues – the body dies and the Ego is released and is then subject to the Higher Self...but the third or overall aspect itself allows this dynamic between higher self and ego self to play out as it will, and some think that the pattern is to send the Ego Self back – usually devoid of all memory of a past existence – to become a brand new Ego which might eventually 'get it' in relation to the Higher Self.

This looping process effectively can go on and on – what it might signify is that the Higher Self aspect is looking for something and is focused upon discovering it and the Ego – the trained Ego is vital to that process – however the Higher self may not see it that way – it is not 'looking' for anything, it is just having 'fun' with what it is able to do...and it does not actually realize it is looking for something until it develops the correct type of Ego which then allows it to see what it wasn't even looking for.

In this sense it is repeating a pattern...the 'Higher Self' is really another kind of Ego – operating within a vastly different and relatively freer environment that the 'lower Ego' aspect of itself.

In the same way as the untrained Ego Self operates, the Higher Self is also unaware of an even vaster aspect of itself – It wants to be the driver, make the decisions, call the shots etc...and can and does effectively do this with The Ego – so in effect can be deemed 'the untrained Higher Self' in regard to that third aspect which remains in the mystery zone.

The Higher Self also had a beginning, and reacts within the parameters of that simulated reality - as vast as that reality may be – the vaster the simulation, the more distractions – but as I suggested, even that vastness amounts to no more than a single tree...in relation to a forest...

In a similar way to the Ego Self, the Higher Self also  usurps the Self which had no beginning in order to keep what it has and control its own interests.  It is simply most likely unaware of any 'higher self' and is too focused on its own reality as a tree, to take a look at the forest.  Being a tree is sufficient for its purposes.

This is metaphor of course.

What seems to bring about the changes is that the leaf looks beyond the tree it is attached to, and sees a forest.  Once this occurs the leaf realizes the significance of that reality and is less influenced by the tree and the tree hears the leaf and also learns to acknowledge the forest and congruence / alignment occurs which causes significant and irrevocable changes for the Ego Self and the Higher Self in relation to the Self which had no beginning.

So is the Ego Self the hero in the story...?  Not really...it might have been the intention of the Higher Self all along to reach this state of being...but it was dependent upon the Ego Self to do its part – to listen – to transform – to 'grow up' etc...There are no 'hero's' in the story...or all aspects working together in alignment = 'The Hero' but whatever...

its_all_bad...

There is no tree

Ben - there is no light saber.

[Astralzombie]

its_all_bad...

There is no tree

I was speaking metaphysicorically. Type that three times fast.