Ok, so because I believe, I am crazy?

[atalanta]

If you will exist for 70 years, millions of years, or forever, how does that affect the meaning? You should still do what you want to do now.

For the meaning of life, see a dictionary. Its one of the biggest scams people have come to believe, that there is some meaning but nobody knows what it is, except for the preachers. They claim to know it too well. All they want is to conform you to their retarded beliefs. None of them know a meaning other than the one they made up, or took from somebody else who made it up.

If some "god" made up a meaning, its certainly been lost in the translation to your society. Be a good christian/whatever. Have sex with exactly 1 person. Spread the word of the translation of a translation. If thats true, I still reject it. I am nobodys slave.

I agree with Beavis in part because eternity is in the moment, practice mindfulness of each moment and you live an eternal life because there is no past and the future hasn't happened yet.  When you live in the past or the future its as if you also don't exist, but if you focus on the moment in which you are in, you exist in completeness.

I disagree with Beavis's statement about religious beliefs.  Its not the first time I have heard statements about how people are being 'conformed' and I don't get it really.  Perhaps in certain countries where the population is starving and the religious groups enter promising food, etc, then you could use that argument but when you are living in countries like the USA, England, Australia, etc, I don't think you could claim it is conformity.  There simply is so much variety in belief systems and the freedom to pursue any of them that to suggest that these people are being forced to conform by a preacher is plainly false to me.  I think if people are being fooled by preachers, then they are choosing to be fooled, but they are still not being forced to conform.

People make decisions about what they are willing to believe and participate in.  Its also unfair to brush everyone in a religious group as being of the same mind.  I know from my own experience, that I have never met two people in the one religious group who think alike.  I know of people who could be classified as fanatical while in the same group there are people who are so liberal in their thinking to the point of being 'heretical'.

People enter these organisations, judging the information they are given and then they look at the results of that information, experiences.  People make their decisions on confirmed experiences, not on a whim and not because they are forced, at least not where I am from.  They witness changes in their lives, they witness what is to them miracles, evidence of a Higher Power and they choose to enter the group.

To give an analogy, there are some people who would say that the topics that this site covers don't exist, that we are all irrational or even mentally unstable individuals.  They might even consider our Robert Bruce our preacher who has brainwashed us.  That we have to some extent conformed to fit into this group.  They may also claim that we have formed our own meanings about a reality that doesn't really exist.  They may say that OBEs and the like are non-existent, a product of a sick mind and that there is no proof, etc.  Now you may say that there is proof, but they may dismiss it out of hand, not even bother looking at the evidence.  You may give them examples, and they may tell you it was just luck, etc.  

I guess what I am saying is that whatever your arguments may be against religion, they can be used against your beliefs, so before you pick up stones to throw at the glass house across your street, you may want to check if you might not be living in a glass house as well.  Because, as far as I can see, maybe you are on the wrong site if drawing meaning from events offends you.     *I am saying this teasingly.*

Does this make everything that religion says right?  No, of course not.  I think many of the experiences that the religious people have are paranormal experiences which eventually will be explained by the language of science, that at the moment they are disguised in flowery language of religion.  Its like sex and romance.  You can have one or the other or both, but just because sex is more 'solid' an experience, doesn't mean that romance isn't as important or valid.  Just because a paranormal event takes place like the healing of a person, doesn't mean that we can't encase it with meaning, ie, that the person's faith in God had something to do with it, or that the healer is a saint or witch, etc.  The meaning it is encased in, has a life of its own, in the same way that romance takes on a life of its own.

In the Hindu tradition, they use the term Neti Neti, 'what is God?, God is not this, God is not that'.  In other words, once all the meanings that we attribute to God are taken away, what is left is God.  It is paradoxical because we think, at least in the west, that attributing meaning to God is what is important.  We talk about God is Love, God is Justice.  We never say just 'God is' and leave it at that.  This is where religious folk get into trouble because once you attribute a feature to God, you have missed God.  Once you have a sentence like God is Love, you have the opposing folk saying, yeh, but look at all the misery of the world.  So when someone asks me what or who is God, I answer, God is...  When I am asked what does that mean, I tell them that I will let them know when I figure it out but I do know like Jung before me, 'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means.    

[beavis]

One of the worst problems I have with religion is that most people choose a religion because their family, friends, or people around them believe it, and say its the best religion.

R = quantity of major religions. Except for one religion having more followers than an other, and other details, on average the chance of a particular religion being the best is 1/R. If people choose arbitrarily by copying those around them, they have only a 1/R chance of being correct, which is a small chance.

How many of you have the same religion of one of your parents? Did you get that religion before you were old enough to understand what it meant? You are a fake believer.

As for experiences, lets say I worship the Butt God, who says bad things will happen if I touch butts. I test his theory and find that the more butts I touch, the more time I spend in jail. Therefore the Butt God is real! And my faith in him dictates he be the only true god.

'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means

You cant believe something you dont understand. Someone might say "the particle supercollider is operating at maximum quantum coherence", and you dont understand it, but you can only believe the other person is correct. You cant believe anything about the coherence itsself. What would you say if I asked some weird question about the coherence? You'd have to ask that person. You have no knowledge about coherence to say its true or false. A christian doesnt believe in god. He believes that Jesus believed in god.

[atalanta]

One of the worst problems I have with religion is that most people choose a religion because their family, friends, or people around them believe it, and say its the best religion.

R = quantity of major religions. Except for one religion having more followers than an other, and other details, on average the chance of a particular religion being the best is 1/R. If people choose arbitrarily by copying those around them, they have only a 1/R chance of being correct, which is a small chance.

How many of you have the same religion of one of your parents? Did you get that religion before you were old enough to understand what it meant? You are a fake believer.

As for experiences, lets say I worship the Butt God, who says bad things will happen if I touch butts. I test his theory and find that the more butts I touch, the more time I spend in jail. Therefore the Butt God is real! And my faith in him dictates he be the only true god.

'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means

You cant believe something you dont understand. Someone might say "the particle supercollider is operating at maximum quantum coherence", and you dont understand it, but you can only believe the other person is correct. You cant believe anything about the coherence itsself. What would you say if I asked some weird question about the coherence? You'd have to ask that person. You have no knowledge about coherence to say its true or false.

So, are you saying then, that before we can be a 'true believer' instead of a 'fake believer', we must know everything about our own religion and everything about every other religion?  If you were hungry and began a walk to find food and a few minutes into your walk you found some food and filled your belly, would you still be walking looking for food?  For some people, the religion they grew up with sustains them and they don't wish to look further.  It may not be your decision but it is theirs and they are content with it.  My parents are content with the faith they were brought up with, I was not.  I went through several religions and came back to my parent's one, not because mine was better but because I believe all religions have valid experiences and I felt comfort and familiarity in the one I grew up with.  Why are my parent's, by your logic, fake believers and I am a true believer since we both belong to the same faith?

I never said I understood God, in fact I actually said that I don't understand God.  What I said was that there is a kind of knowing that I experience that tells me that something is there.  Have you ever written a scientific paper with statistical analysis and stated that your results are absolutely 100% true?  No.  Why?  Because as any scientist will point out statistics are only pointers to possible truths, yet, there are many things we take for granted as being true based on those statistics.  Every time you get into a plane, you are putting your faith in a science you may not understand.  You don't say that you must know every part of engineering, etc, before you will believe that planes exist and that they fly.  You just know.

I don't understand lots of things, ie, I don't understand how it is that I can describe where a dead body is lying in another country I have never been to, describe her kidnapper, the colour of his car, when the body would be found, etc, all before the police have even figured out if she was kidnapped.  I just know that I know.  I may never understand it, should I not use this ability?  

Sorry, I am being nagged to go to sleep.  Hope it all makes sense.

[beavis]

So, are you saying then, that before we can be a 'true believer' instead of a 'fake believer', we must know everything about our own religion and everything about every other religion?

Before you can truly believe some part of your religion, you must know some things about that part. You cant just say you believe the contents of page 563 without ever reading, thinking about, and understanding it.

If you were hungry and began a walk to find food and a few minutes into your walk you found some food and filled your belly, would you still be walking looking for food?

Depends if it poisoned me. I couldnt say its the best food, regardless of how good it was.

Why are my parent's, by your logic, fake believers and I am a true believer since we both belong to the same faith?

I said that about people who dont examine other religions, but you are only less guilty, since you havent examined all the others except those few, unless you admit yours is probably not the best, whatever it is.

Every time you get into a plane, you are putting your faith in a science you may not understand.

No, I do not have faith the plane wont crash. Its unlikely, but I get on knowing I might die.

You don't say that you must know every part of engineering, etc, before you will believe that planes exist and that they fly. You just know.

I must at least see the plane fly, or know some other things that imply a plane can probably fly. Without that, I would be undecided.

I don't understand lots of things, ie, I don't understand how it is that I can describe where a dead body is lying in another country I have never been to, describe her kidnapper, the colour of his car, when the body would be found, etc, all before the police have even figured out if she was kidnapped. I just know that I know. I may never understand it, should I not use this ability?

I doubt you have enough skill to do that reliably. Either way, thats based on experience, so its ok.

[atalanta]

I am not sure why you feel the need to be disrespectful and judgemental towards me or other people.  I don't mind discussing these issues but I don't feel like I ought to have to put myself in a position where I am being disrespected.  I get the impression that you are very set in your thinking about this issue and as such, it would be a waste of my time to try and discuss this with you.  I can answer your statements, its not that I can't debate this, its that I am not sure you are willing to discuss this openly without attacking me in the process.  I don't come here because I have to, I come here because I want to.  I have two small children and two elderly parents to deal with, I simply don't have the energy or time to deal with a closed minded, negative, fundamentalist, even of the atheistic variety.

Good luck and goodbye.

[atalanta]

I am not sure why you feel the need to be disrespectful and judgemental towards me or other people.  I don't mind discussing these issues but I don't feel like I ought to have to put myself in a position where I am being disrespected.  I get the impression that you are very set in your thinking about this issue and as such, it would be a waste of my time to try and discuss this with you.  I can answer your statements, its not that I can't debate this, its that I am not sure you are willing to discuss this openly without attacking me in the process.  I don't come here because I have to, I come here because I want to.  I have two small children and two elderly parents to deal with, I simply don't have the energy or time to deal with a closed minded, negative, fundamentalist, even of the atheistic variety.

Good luck and goodbye.

I just returned from hospital where my father had an operation for bladder cancer.  Its been an emotional and exhausting day and I think that caused me to overreact in my statement above which was written while dad was being operated on (I thought that coming here would distract me   ), and which I apologise for.  However, I still think that basically it would be useless to discuss this issue.  Its not the first time I have debated this issue.  In the last couple of months alone I have had this same discussion on about five different threads in two different sites with both atheists and Christian fundamentalists.  I have had this same debate over and over for several years with different people.  You'd think I would have learned by now.      I have yet to see anyone win this debate and at some point it gets frustrating to keep trying to convince someone of your experiences and knowledge when they are determined to negate them.  This is just one more such debate for me and I just don't feel like doing this anymore.  Maybe others will and I will keep a lookout for new posts but right now, it can't be me, perhaps in a few days.   I am just too tired right now.

[OrionsDream]

going back to like the first page, and the original topic of heter:

"appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others;

shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity."

Heter- that is not you at all. You react to criticism and you are certaintly not emotionally cold.

Like caco said, its just a 'term' used.

Not everything is used as a  method of control. Lots of it is, but you should be able to tell when its just a term used in this society, not everything is meant to push you down