Reward for Anyone Who Kills an American!

[Rob]

Ooohh here is a good quote, Bruce Lee:
"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."
from http://www.eyeballsout.com/quotes/brucelee.shtml

And I have to agree. For instance, by siding with one viewpoint you naturally tend to discount evidence which goes against your views, as being irrelevant or not as important as what you already believe you know. To impassively weigh all the evidence before you, and judge whether this evidence forms a complete picture (it rarely does, especially on a subject like this), and then form a likely direction which takes us to the best ends, while at all times remaining fluid to change, should really be what we are aspiring towards. Difficult, to say the least, but a point to aim for none the less.
I am constantly reminded about the danger of becoming too set in one point of view. I think it is of critical importance that we try and steer as clear of this as possible.

Again...."The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."

thanks for listening to my rants!
Rob

[Adrian]

Greetings Rob!

quote:Originally posted by Inguma
[brAnyway, all this back-and-forthing - has it actually affected the views of any of you good posters out there? I would be very interested to hear if anyones opinions have been swayed. I suspect, that most peoples minds are already made up.

I fear you are correct in that most peoples minds are indeed well and truly made up. The vehemence of both sides is eyebrow raising compared to many similar global situations, but I still maintain that there are other forces at work here, particularly on the dark side, aiming to destablise humanity and send it further off the path. This is alas not surprising or unanticipated, but it doesn't alter the fact that the dark forces must not prevail.

People might find this hard to believe, but you only have to look at the "players" involved. Bush looks more like a war crazed madman every day. Colin Powell was a great and very fair gulf war leader and figurehead - now he seems as war crazed as Bush if not more so. Tony Blair  - 10 years ago the Labour Party was totally pasifist to a man, and it was the Conservative's who were considered the warmongers. Blair seems more of a sabre rattling gingoistic warmonger than any Conservative I remember, including Margaret Thatcher. And that goes for the whole Labour cabinet.

Unseen forces can and do affect the minds of incarnate humans in order to destablise mankind and the planet. There is a battle going on right now between the forces of dark and light, and this is just the beginning. The next decade is pivotal to mankind - specifically as to whether it falls further towards the dark or is able to turn back towards the light. Whichever happens is the destiny of mankind for a long time.

This is why I maintain that we can defeat these forces with collective positive energy.  The same energy can give the people of Iraq the strength to determine their own destiny as we have witnessed with the ex-eastern block countries and more recently China. China will one day be much more powerful than the USA in fact.

This proposed war is absolutely wrong however you look at it, and if it goes ahead will have ramifications for a long time to come, starting with a crisis in the United Nations, and an upsurge in inland terrorism aimed at the USA and Britain in particular.  Anyone who believes that this invasion is justified is deluding themselves or have been deluded by external negative forces. No right minded person can look at the situation objectively and say that invasion of Iraq is wrong and very, very dangerous for the future of mankind.

Regards,

Adrian.

[BDHugh]

Hi everyone.

Inguma, I know who Bush is. After all, he was governor of my state. I do agree with you with the subscribing of a particular view point. I myself am a fence sitter and have been a very long time.

If the UN does indeed vote against the a possible war, then fine by me. If this happens then what Bush should do is bring the troops back home, not just the ones in the Gulf, but everywhere. Then say no more free food or supplies, cut it all off. I've always felt that when George Washington said to stay out of the affairs of other nations and the world in general it was one of the best advice ever given by a president. If the world finds themselves in another silly world war, it should not matter to Americans as we were originally isolationists.

Adrian, you are partially right about China, however they need food. I have my doubts as to wether they can feed themselves. I do agree with you that the Iraqis should try to have an insurrection against Saddam, that way they have there own victory and decide where they will go from there.

Take care all.

[Adrian]

Greetings BDHugh,

I agree with you that the USA should bring their troops home, but it should not mean sending no more humanitarian aid to those countries that genuinely need it. Food cannot be linked to cruise missiles in that way, and the UN is united in the need to assist underpriveledged countries.

Regarding China - they are becoming a super-power faster than people think, and they can and will buy food, oil and everything else they need, including of course the means to grow and make their own food.

China is in a transition from repressed communist country to a dynamic, vibrant country - like Hong Kong on a massive scale. The Chinese old guard are in their 80's or even 90's now,and once they have gone there will be no stopping China who will become an economic powerhouse supplying much of the world with goods, particularly electronics.

If the Iraqi people could free themselves from the tyranny, they too could become a great and prosperous nation with all that oil.

I just hope that the USA and UK respect the resolution if it goes against them. If they ignore it it will cause a definite crisis, andthe world will be a more dangerous place.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Chance]

As an ex-military member in the USAF who spent over three years in the UK I have a few thoughts for you...Especially Frank, who could have been brought up speaking German were it not for the United States military...Yes, I know, this particular statement has been overused.

While stationed at Mildenhall I spent a great deal of time off-base.  The older British men and women had a great deal of respect for us yanks.  They remembered the generosity of many American soldiers who donated time, food, blankets, etc. to the many people who needed them.  They also risked their lives to ensure the freedom from tyranny that would have become a way of life had the war went the other way.

While stationed in Merry Olde, I found it was the younger British (men mostly) that held us in contempt.  While I will agree that many Americans can be arrogant, for the most part they are like any other  human beings in the world. They thrive in loving environments and dislike being in the presence of negative and hateful ones.  

For the most part I am extremely upset with my government and it's leaders.  They are self-involved and many of their decisions are not based on the voice of the people, rather the voice of their own damn greed.  But judging an American based on their government or leaders is completely absurd.  They say that the govenment represents the people.  They lie.  And killing the average American because of the actions of their government is unjustifiable no matter what.

As for US soldiers, they are just pawns in this sick game our government leaders play in order to ensure they keep their pockets full and their ego's intact.  The troops deserve our support in whatever dangerous endeavor they are forced to participate in.  

I am very aware of the hypocrisies and atrocities of our government's past as well.  What happened to the natives on this continent is disheartening and a great well of sadness resides within my very being just thinking about it.  The question one has to ask themselves though, is how can we learn from these mistakes?  What good can we bring forth from the horror of our past?  Well, killing more Americans isn't going to help.  Standing up for what is right.  Voicing your opinion to those who are capable of initiating change.  These are all we have.  We best make good use of them.

It's funny how people/societies/etc. look outside of themselves and lob off blame and shame in an attempt to keep from looking at their own inequities.  In the case of Frank and his continued barrages at the actions of America, I would implore him to look at his own country and the atrocities of it's past and present.  I remember back in '88 '89 ish when I watched the news as football thugs and their violence caused the death of so many innocent fans.  I cried for them that day as I watched the film footage.  I didn't think, oh those poor British people, rather my heart went out to the human beings and the pain they must have been enduring.  Are you catching my drift Frank?

The United Kingdom has committed as many (Or more) horrible crimes against humanity during it's many battles for control in it's bloody past.  So no one, and that includes you Frank, has the high moral ground here.  So, in closing, get off your holier than though soapbox sir.  Instead of continuing to play the blame game, look within yourself for what it is you can do to create the atmosphere for a better world.  If I have learned anything from my life experiences, it is that thoughts are things.  As we continue to sow thoughts of love and peace within ourselves, we will eventually reap a world where love and peace flourishes.  If we focus our thoughts on others and direct our anger and dis-ease for our plights on them, we continue the dysfunctional cycle of thinking that has us in our current states of disharmony.  

As we think so shall we become...

Cheers!

[Adrian]

Greetings Chance!

Welcome to the forums and thank you very much indeed for your post.

I really do not think that there is anything anti-American being said here per se, but rather pointing at the increasing alarming tendency for the US government to wield its military strength here there and everywhere, whenever it suits them, and regardless of the feelings of other countries and world peace generally. Since the end of the cold war, the resources ploughed into the miltary and in particular weapons of mass destruction by the USA simply does not seem to be in any way justified, and it indeed seems almost as if they are trying to justify it by taking a position as the de-facto worlds police force so that these weapons and the military can be justified.

This time around the USA is in very serious danger of seriously overstepping the mark, aided and abetted by the UK. The  purpose of the United Nations is, by definition, designed to keep Nations United by concensus resolutions. If the USA puts forward a resolution, and has it voted down or vetoed, but chooses to ignore it anyway while calling the UN "irrelevant" as Bush suggested recently, and invaded Iraq anyway, then the USA will be exposing itself to very severe consequences, not to mention the affect on world peace.

People do not have a problem with Americans, and I certainly don't - but do see "Americans" as being collectively responsible if they invade Iraq against the UN as it will be deemed to be a slur against the UN and every member nation, as well as the populations of those nations who the UN people represent. The backlash will affect every American family, as they are in danger of becoming the outcasts of the world, and would likely not receive any sympathy for the consequences of their actions.

Bush is behaving like a war crazed madman along with his henchman, and for the sake of all humanity, and in particular the American people, he simply has to be stopped.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[alfa_33au]

Thats strange,

I made three short replies to this topic, saw them entered , now they have dissapeared.
Is there some editing going on?
Paola

[Rob]

Paolo - thats odd, I seriously doubt anyone has deleted them, unless they were *waaaay* over the top and even then I doubt it. Adrian???

----

All injustice should be worked against. Saddam is just another offender is a sea of scum.
This is awful, but I don't remember even hearing of it before:
http://nexusmagazine.com/canada.html

[Frank]

quote" height="[i" src="Originally posted by Chance[/i]



As an ex-military member in the USAF who spent over three years in the UK I have a few thoughts for you...Especially Frank, who could have been brought up speaking German were it not for the United States military...Yes, I know, this particular statement has been overused.

Thank-you for your input.

As to the quote above, I would add: and if it were not for the great sacrifice also made by others of all nationalities (including many members of my own family). My father was the youngest so he was just a tad too young to be enlisted. But his eldest brother was killed along with his father. His other brother spent time in a Japanese concentration camp and never mentally recovered from the experience.

Same too with my mother, her eldest brother was killed along with her father. In fact, so many English men were killed, when I was a boy it was unusual for anyone to have a grandfather.

It still sits in mind today, the times (particularly at Christmas) when what was left of the family would gather together. They'd be okay for a while, and one by one they'd break down and just end up holding each other. You'd quickly fill a bath from all the tears that were shed in memory of their loved ones. It wasn't so much the fact they had died, it was the way in which they died. Like, situations where submarines submerged and never came up. But my family was by no means an exception. For that's how it is in the aftermath of war.

You can harp back to WW2 all you like. But the situation faced then was entirely different. Here we have an ageing dictator (one of many) but this one, rather than being allowed to just fade away, is currently sitting in charge of a relatively tiny land-mass under which is the second largest oil-reserves in the world. If it were not for that fact, then no-one in America would have ever given a stuff about Iraq. After all, it is an undenyable fact that US economic supremecy relies on a plentiful flow of cheap crude-oil.

More and more people have, over the decades, steadily come to terms with the fact that America only serves what suits them. Which is I guess why you found you were welcomed in this country by the WW2 generation, but generally slated by younger people.

But here you are set to go one stage further and act outside specific UN resolutions. From what you say, to the average American, a big shoulder-shrug is in order. But it will simply give the green light for every tin-pot hero nation or group that ever lived, to do the same.

Yours,
Frank

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Chance, for clearing all that up. A REAL American doesn't worship money, doesn't support our government as it is right now, DOES support our troops, and believes in the ideals on which this country was founded. I am proud to be an American. There are many in this country who are not REAL Americans or patriots, and I am speaking of the government (I am NOT talking about immigrants, because even they are more American than our government), as well as others who believe that their personal wealth comes before protecting the ideals that became the foundation of our country. It is those corrupt individuals in the government and in corporations who are a disgrace to our country. It is up to the people to stop them from what they are doing to this country. Our country was founded on the notion that all people are equal, and all have the right to pursue life, liberty, and happines, and that nobody can take those rights away from us. It's time for us to stand against these individuals, as our forefathers did against the British Redcoats during the Revolutionary War. Just because they are from our country doesn't mean they're our allies. Not everyone in our country believes in those ideals. Who here has the courage to do so? I believe I do. I believe many of you do as well. But before we can stop them, we must know how. Our country is in a condition similar to that of a person infected with a virus. Let's fit the cure to the disease. We must ask ourselves: What is the disease that affects our country? How do we go about curing it? What can "kill" this disease? What is it immuned to? How can we prevent this disease from infecting the country again?

[BDHugh]

Hi Adrian

quote:Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings BDHugh,
I agree with you that the USA should bring their troops home, but it should not mean sending no more humanitarian aid to those countries that genuinely need it. Food cannot be linked to cruise missiles in that way, and the UN is united in the need to assist underpriveledged countries.

Many countries slap us in the face when we feed them. I believe that the U.S. government should no longer send humanitarian aid. However, I do encourage U.S. companies that operate internationally to do so, as this increases business and keeps a positive perspective on them. Or, just as well private charity organizations.

quote:
Regarding China - they are becoming a super-power faster than people think, and they can and will buy food, oil and everything else they need, including of course the means to grow and make their own food.

It matters not wether they can buy food, it matters if they can supply themselves with food. Throughout history any powerful nation that has existed owes their success of being able to feed their own.

Take care.

[BDHugh]

Hi EnderWiggin.

quote:Originally posted by EnderWiggin

We must ask ourselves: What is the disease that affects our country? How do we go about curing it? What can "kill" this disease? What is it immuned to? How can we prevent this disease from infecting the country again?

I believe the 'disease' is caused by our current education system. Our education system is based off the Prussian educational system where it is arranged that you follow orders instead of having people thinking on their own.

Here is a little background info which explains how it came about in our country: http://www.feltd.com/domo3.html

Here is a website which addresses a solution to the problem called "Project Renaissance". http://www.winwenger.com Check it out there is alot of interesting info on the website.

Take care.

[Rob]

Timeless - thankyou!! Lol yes, we do have a really good bunch here. Myself, I would love to go to Iraq, and see what life is actually like there, what people actually think of Saddam. I wonder if they hate Americans more? (the "highway of death" springs to mind....)

[Chance]

Thank you for the gracious welcome Adrian!  I am very impressed with this site and the insight of it's members.

I hope you didn't think I was picking on you Frank.  I looked inside myself for why of all the posts, yours seemed to raise the hairs on the back of my neck (They are fine white ones, not the huge dark scary kind). I believe one of the events that put me off was the beating of three of my fellow airmen at the hands (And mostly clubs) of a large group of British youth.  Why did they beat my friends up?  Because they were Americans.  I don't hate the young Britains that did that.  I hate the ignorance that led them to the violent act they committed.

Believe me Frank, I have heard of the plight suffered by the British during WW2.  I listened intently to my neighbor, who served during that hellish war, as he told me story after story of the suffering both the soldiers and those keeping the home fires lit endured.  Perhaps this is why my favorite band of all time has been and continues to be Pink Floyd.  In almost all of their albumns you can feel the pain of loss and anger towards military leaders, etc. with regards to that particular war.

In regards to our current world situation I'd have to say you are only partially correct in your view on why GW is so darn anxious to whoop up on some Sadaam butt.  Oil, yes that is quite obvious now isn't it.  Oust Sadaam, in with some govt./dictator that is pro USA.  Cheaper oil.  But there is more.  GW is not a rocket scientist.  Well, he probably would have difficulting saying rocket scientist.  LOL! Recently he was quoted saying, "A zebra can't change it's spots."  This active aggression towards Iraq is his way of showing how strong a leader he is.  He suffers the illusion that going to war makes one appear strong.  He also suffers from the illusion that a war will help the economy.  Since he has no intellectual reserves to wield in improving our economy, he uses this conflict to keep our attention elsewhere.  It's the classic tail wagging the dog scenario.  But there is more.  His father has his ear.  His father used to be head of the CIA.  I don't really think any more speculation is necessary as you can fathom what that might mean.  And of course the embarrassment that the Gulf War didn't take a large enough bite out of Sadaam's backside during Bush Sr's reign must play a part in here as well.  Soon GW will be attempting to keep his office.  Presidential polls are always favorable during a time of war.  

Thankfully the oil card will only be playable for a few more years anyhow.  Hydrogen fuel cell technology is on the rise.  In less than ten years I believe we will see fossil fuel vehicles go the way of the dinosaur.  Sure the dinosaurs of fossil fuel will fight all the way to their extinction, but it is coming.  Type fuel cells into your browser.  You'll find it very interesting.  

I believe Hugh is on the money with the real disease.  The lack of an education system that inspires one to think for themselves.  Our current education system could be compared with Pavlov's dogs.  We put the right letter in the right box and we are rewarded with an A.  We get enough A's and we get to attend a higher learning facility.  That facility rewards us with more A's as we continue to put the right letters in the right boxes, or write papers that our educational instructors find to their liking.  We get enough A's at this facility and we find ourselves rewarded by getting high paying positions in corporations.  How do we get ahead in those corporations.  Mostly by saying and doing what it is the heads of those corporations want to hear and see done.  And we come to ENRON and the other corporations, who's leaders sell out their people for their own personal gain.  
   
We can also look to two of the most prevalent problems we face as individuals.  Lack of personal responsibility and instant gratification.  If something bad happens to us we want to blame, sue, etc. someone else until we gain financial rewards.  Lawyers love this stuff.  It fills their pockets every day.  Feel a bit low on energy, pop a pill.  Yeah that'll fix us right up.  How about finding the source of the energy depletion.  The pharmaceutical companies love that mentality...And they are making billions off of it.

I have strayed a bit, I apologize.

Anti-American sentiment is like all other anti-sentiment, it's anti-productive.  Are you going to hate Americans because of the actions of their government?  It makes no sense.  I'll tell you something else.  Go ahead and kill an American.  You will reap the Karma from your actions and you will not kill the true American Spirit.  It will come back again and again.  The True American Spirit is about Freedom.  It has no national borders.  It listens to no law.  It is truthful to itself.  It can live in any man, woman or child.  

I think we can all agree that freedom is worth fighting and dying for!  Or can we?  

[Tom]

Oil is good for much more than burning. It is also used to make plastics, synthetic fibers, pharmaceuticals, dyes, and explosives. Food additives, too, I think. Gasoline is just a small portion of the mixture known as oil. Another power source will not change this.

[Chance]

You are correct in saying that it is used in many other products Tom.  What you are missing though is the fact that other substances may be substituted for oil.  Many of the ones you listed could be replaced by the oil squeezed from marijuana seeds.  Another reason it is still illegal in this country.  It makes a better fabric.  It could be used for paper.  Cash crops could be grown two to three times a year depending on the location.  And think of all the trees that would save!  There is more protein in a marijuana seed than any other seed.  It could make a much more durable plastic.  The oil could be used as oil bases in paints and, well, I could go on and on here.  But I won't.  My digits are in need of rest.  

Needless to say Tom, we need to change our ways of thinking in relation to our dependency on oil in every aspect of manufacturing the products we use in our lives.  I await the day of the grand Awakening.  When enough souls reach a certain level of consciousness, we will see something very similar to what occured during the hundredth monkey experiment.

Here's a link...http://www.worldtrans.org/pos/monkey.html

[Adrian]

Greetings Tom,

That is correct. I started out as an organic chemist (I worked for Bayer), and most organic compounds including the ones you mention depend upon basic organic building blocks derived from crude oil.

If you removed all oil derived materials from the physical world, it would likely fall apart [] Although I do drive a car,I do try to stay away from synthetic fibres, and wear cotton wherever possible.

Having said all of that, it is the fuels that are the major source of pollution, and any alternative based e.g. on Hydrogen would be most welcome.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Chance

Thank you for the gracious welcome Adrian!  I am very impressed with this site and the insight of it's members.

I hope you didn't think I was picking on you Frank.  I looked inside myself for why of all the posts, yours seemed to raise the hairs on the back of my neck (They are fine white ones, not the huge dark scary kind). I believe one of the events that put me off was the beating of three of my fellow airmen at the hands (And mostly clubs) of a large group of British youth.  Why did they beat my friends up?  Because they were Americans.  I don't hate the young Britains that did that.  I hate the ignorance that led them to the violent act they committed.

Nope, I never for a moment thought you were "picking on me" and I thank you again for your input. Problem is, it is ignorance that leads to violence. As to young thugs, someone gets a good kicking for no reason (of which you have had direct experience). But on a nation-scale, a country gets bombed to bits.

quote:
Believe me Frank, I have heard of the plight suffered by the British during WW2.  I listened intently to my neighbor, who served during that hellish war, as he told me story after story of the suffering both the soldiers and those keeping the home fires lit endured.  Perhaps this is why my favorite band of all time has been and continues to be Pink Floyd.  In almost all of their albumns you can feel the pain of loss and anger towards military leaders, etc. with regards to that particular war.

In that respect we have little or no difference.

Naturally, I'm not maintaining the experience of such is a yardstick everyone should follow... but I do feel that if people were forced to live through a "war" situation they would perhaps not be so ready to repeat the experience.

Of course, I am not wishing that on anyone. But I would again strongly suggest that people in the USA please look at the devastation that was caused by those two planes on the twin-towers and consider... that the sheer horror that occured that day was only about two US cruise-missiles' worth of destruction.

Respectfully,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings Chance!

quote:Originally posted by Chance

You are correct in saying that it is used in many other products Tom.  What you are missing though is the fact that other substances may be substituted for oil.  Many of the ones you listed could be replaced by the oil squeezed from marijuana seeds.  Another reason it is still illegal in this country.  It makes a better fabric.  It could be used for paper.  Cash crops could be grown two to three times a year depending on the location.  And think of all the trees that would save!  There is more protein in a marijuana seed than any other seed.  It could make a much more durable plastic.  The oil could be used as oil bases in paints and, well, I could go on and on here.  But I won't.  My digits are in need of rest.  

Needless to say Tom, we need to change our ways of thinking in relation to our dependency on oil in every aspect of manufacturing the products we use in our lives.  I await the day of the grand Awakening.  When enough souls reach a certain level of consciousness, we will see something very similar to what occured during the hundredth monkey experiment.

Here's a link...http://www.worldtrans.org/pos/monkey.html

You are so right!

Organic building blocks can be derived from numerous alternative sources, the only limitation being availability. The problem generally is that the materialistic human race still has little regard for conservation, the environment etc., and lives for today instead of the world our children will have to live in. It is not until things reach a crisis point,e.g. as with the "greenhouse effect" and global warming, that crisis measures and planning come into effect by which time it is too late of course. As an aside, someone is successfully running unmodified diesel engines from a vegetable oil, the name of which escapes me for now.

Regarding monkeys - yes! All Spirit is connected at the unconscious level - that is how alot of low magic works which is aimed at influencing other people. All animal life and of course humans are thus connected, and can, and do communicate subconsiously in that manner. Low magic employs energy to bring about the desired effect on another person. BTW - low magic used for this purpose is grey or even black magic and should never been performed. If you interfere with the freewill of another person, there will be a Karmic price to pay in the same magnitude, and in strict accordance with Universal laws.

However - if enough members of a group collectively create sufficient energy in the same direction, then, like low magic, the energy will travel to other members of the collective mind and manifest accordingly in the collective consciousness as thoughts and actions.

To get back on topic - I believe that is what is happening with the Iraq situation, Tremendous energy from both dark and light forces are influencing the collective human unconscious, and we are seeing an unprecedented polarisation of good intent (no war) and bad intent - war. This is a true battle of dark against light and the stakes are high. Bush, Colin Powell, Blair and their henchmen and women are being firmly influenced by the dark forces who want to destablise the planet,and bring about fear, death, destruction and all of the negative energies it needs upon which to feed and grow stronger. Fortunately, the forces of light are ahead in human terms, but people like Bush and Blair have the power to plunge the world into darkness.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[alfa_33au]

I think science and medicine would solve many a war issue.
Give George and Sadam a testosterone level test.
Bingo problem found.  All that is needed then is a little medication to create a false sense of balance, and there ya go.
Paola
In jest.

[ICWiz]

Its really sad, Most people dont realize that ,in Islam, there isnt a rule that says to kill non-belivers. It says to repect all non-belivers just as you would want religon to be respected. In fact it goes as far to say that if a muslim insulted a non-beliver's religon and the non-beliver verbally retaliated against islam, then All of what he/she says is on your head.

Also...Islamic law does not allow the killing of innocent people, even in war. It goes as far to say that if a muslim in war comes across a solder who surrenders or stops fighting, then it is a sin to kill him.

These Terrorist, like bin laden, are using the same tatics as hitler to seize the minds of the poeple.

Terrorism by its very nature is illegal in islam.

So who ever said to kill any american in pakistan, Godwillingly he will be punished.

Also..on a side note..True Islamic Law..By its very nature is a secular form of goverment.

For example, in spain, when the moors came in, they did not force the religon on anyone...At the time of the empire's collapse..90% of the population was still freely non-muslim.



--ICWiz

[Adrian]

Greetings ICWiz,

Thank you for that perspective.

I do not profess to be familiar with Islam or the Koran, but I have long since suspected that governments and other factions are trying to manipulate the masses, and run their countries using religion. Christianity is no exception I hasten to add - it is all about making use of the feelings and insecurity of "God fearing" people, whether it is based on the word of Jesus and the christian God or Mohammed and Allah, both of which have been seriously distorted over the centuries.  Jesus came to teach Spirituality to mankind in terms that people could grasp, and Mohammed probably did as well.

I believe the Islamic fundamentalists use the interpreted commandment of destroying the "infidel", and which is interpreted as any country that can loosely be claimed to be an enemy of Islam - the USA being the number one candidate. It is on this basis that the fundamentalists call for the support of the people in the name of Allah to rise up in Jihad.

If the people of Iraq an other countries new the truth about their religion, they would probably find the strength to rise up against the real infidel - the fundamentalists who make their lives a misery.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[ICWiz]

quote:Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings ICWiz,

Thank you for that perspective.

I do not profess to be familiar with Islam or the Koran, but I have long since suspected that governments and other factions are trying to manipulate the masses, and run their countries using religion. Christianity is no exception I hasten to add - it is all about making use of the feelings and insecurity of "God fearing" people, whether it is based on the word of Jesus and the christian God or Mohammed and Allah, both of which have been seriously distorted over the centuries.  Jesus came to teach Spirituality to mankind in terms that people could grasp, and Mohammed probably did as well.

I believe the Islamic fundamentalists use the interpreted commandment of destroying the "infidel", and which is interpreted as any country that can loosely be claimed to be an enemy of Islam - the USA being the number one candidate. It is on this basis that the fundamentalists call for the support of the people in the name of Allah to rise up in Jihad.

If the people of Iraq an other countries new the truth about their religion, they would probably find the strength to rise up against the real infidel - the fundamentalists who make their lives a misery.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Its not fearing god like you fear a snake , as something to hurt you. Its more like the fear a child had to a parent of the pushiment they would get if they upset them.

God loves all

And you are very right, Islamic fundamentalist are the real enemy. But fighting them isnt the answer either, it knowledge. The act of aquiring spritual knowledge in itself is a form of worship in islam.

Just by doing that the people of those countries would prevent people like bin laden from getting into the minds of the populus.

I, being a devout and (I pray) a true muslim, try to teach the true word to all, Its my Jihad on the problems of the world

--ICWiz

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by ICWiz

Its not fearing god like you fear a snake , as something to hurt you. Its more like the fear a child had to a parent of the pushiment they would get if they upset them.

That's a good analogy.

quote:
And you are very right, Islamic fundamentalist are the real enemy. But fighting them isnt the answer either, it knowledge. The act of aquiring spritual knowledge in itself is a form of worship in islam.

To help me understand further, could you please give me your definition of, "Islamic Fundamentalist" because that's a side of the argument I never fully undertood. So your input would be gratefully received.

You then mention about the act of acquiring spiritual knowledge is a form of worship. My question is, how is this "act of acquiring" brought about? Are followers (if that is the right term) taught to simply read from books, or are they encouraged to look within themselves for answers? Or maybe it is a mixture of both.

Forgive me if my questions sound simplistic.

Yours,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

Every religion seems to have its "mainstream followers", the fundamentalists (often fanatics), and the esoteric/mystical/Spiritual orders.

It is the fanatics who seek to use the religions of the nations in order to control, manipulate and terrorise people, and is often used as an instrument by governments. This applies to most religions, but we are seeing it in particular with the Islamic fundamentalists of today.

Christianity has its esoteric side, often associated with Essenes and Gnostics, the Jewish faith has its Kaballists, in the Orient there are various Yoga disciplines and Islam has the "Sufis".

All of these organisations had similar doctrines relating to truth. I found this on a website relating to Sufism:

When asked about Sufism, Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Qassab--the master of Junayd--said, "Sufism consists of noble behavior (akhlaq karima) that is made manifest at a noble time on the part of a noble person in the presence of a noble people."

When he was asked about Sufism, Junayd said, "Sufism is that you should be with God--without any attachment."

With regard to Sufism, Ruwaym ibn Ahmad said, "Sufism consists of abandoning oneself to God in accordance with what God wills."

On one occasion when he was asked about Sufism, Samnun said, "Sufism is that you should not possess anything nor should anything possess you."

Concerning Sufism, Abu Muhammad al-Jariri said, "Sufism consists of entering every exalted quality (khulq) and leaving behind every despicable quality."

When he was asked about Sufism, 'Amr ibn 'Uthman al-Makki said, "Sufism is that at each moment the servant should be in accord with what is most appropriate (awla) at that moment."

Regarding Sufism, 'Ali ibn 'Abd al-Rahim al-Qannad said, "Sufism consists of extending a 'spiritual station' (nashr maqam) and being in constant union (ittisal bi-dawam)."

All of these definitions of Sufism given by Sufis who lived in the 9th and 10th centuries (CE) are provided by al-Sarraj (d. 378 AH/ 988 CE) in the earliest comprehensive book on Sufism, the Kitab al-Luma' (The Book of Flashes) (ed. by R. Nicholson, pp. 34-35). These definitions of Sufism, however, are mere signposts pointing one to the Doorway


I particularly like:

Concerning Sufism, Abu Muhammad al-Jariri said, "Sufism consists of entering every exalted quality (khulq) and leaving behind every despicable quality."

Which is a fundamental and sacred duty of all mankind and precisely the opposite of the characteristics of many fundamentalists.

All of these follow the true teachings of their Masters and prophets, and were, and still are often persecuted, or driven into hiding or esoterism by the fundamentalists who had, and still have, their own agendas, and also to a lesser extent the followers at large who simply believe everything their church and books state, and which has been derived from a materialistic interpretation of the truth which has totally distorted the ancient and real truths and wisdoms.

With best regards,

Adrian.