Reward for Anyone Who Kills an American!

[Lysear]

what a moving post, I read it all and it really makes you think. Every country has its negative points (mostly attributed to their governments!) but when people get wrapped up in bad points they will more than likely forget the good.

[Tom]

So how do these 14,112 (statistic from 1999) killers collect that reward for bumping off their victims? Even with the numbers going down some, there must be thousands of americans getting bumped off every year and hundreds every month. How many murders have there been today?

http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te061301agm.htm

From "TESTIMONY OF ANDREW G. MCBRIDE BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTION, FEDERALISM AND PROPERTY RIGHTS June 13, 2001 RACE AND THE FEDERAL DEATH PENALTY"

"I would ask the Subcommittee to keep four points in mind as it evaluates these very serious, but, in my opinion, wholly unsupported charges. First, pointing to statistical disparities between racial percentages of capital defendants and racial percentages in the population at large is utterly specious. The population at large does not commit violent felonies – only a small percentage of both the white and non-white communities are ever involved in violent crime. The sad fact is that non-whites are statistically much more likely to commit certain crimes of violence that might lead to death penalty prosecutions. African Americans make up approximately 13 percent of the nation's population. Yet, according to the FBI's 1999 uniform crime reports, there were 14,112 murder offendersin the United States in 1999, and of those offenders for whom race was known, 50 percent were black. Given that most murders are intra-racial, it is not surprising that of the 12,658 murder victims in 1999, 47 percent were black."

[MJ-12]

zx

[Fat_Turkey]

America's a great country sure, but like all governments, its one is starting to reveal its sure-as-daylight corruptedness. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and who has the most weapons of mass destruction? Who tore NATO apart? I don't hate America, it's one of the most logical and best countries there is. But the way their government acts is annoying. They make their people believe that America is the one and only country, the only power that has the right to have power, the only place that can control. They are basically policing the world.

Sorry, ranting again.

America's great, but its government and its army are sometimes so conceited I feel like puking

Just my opinion
Don't hate me.

I think, therefore I am []

Later
-FT

[Anonymous]

My problem with this country is its disposable mainstream culture. All the things I used to be into are somewhat mainstream now. They take everything that is sacred and market it and turn it into nothing more than a product to satisfy the whimsical cravings of ignorant people.

I also dislike the government right now- When a guy that isn't really our president gets some strings pulled to get into office, and is able to succeed, something should be done about the conditions that have allowed this to happen. I also agree with what Fat Turkey said. However, I am totally against the whole reward for killing an American thing. Or any other kind of violence for that matter.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior

What is an American?

You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was
actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

That's hardly news as the average Pakistani earns about as much in a year as the average American makes in a day (if they are lucky). Perhaps if you were to actually visit these kinds of places and see how these people live....

quote:An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the Soviet army twenty years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country. As of the morning of September 11, 2001, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.

This is getting rather sicky-bucket.

quote:
Americans welcome the best -- the best products, the best books, the
>best music, the best food, the best athletes.

Yes, I agree. But I rather think the 2nd and 3rd world view is you do that entirely at their expense.

quote:
But they also welcome the least.

As long as they are not Mexicans skipping border controls.

quote:
The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest-tossed. These, in fact, are the people who built America.

Well, next time I'm suffering loss of sleep over how to pay my monthly bills I'll just turn up on your doorstep and all will be well. Cheers mate!

quote:
Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least thirty other countries, cultures, and first languages -- including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So the forthcoming bombs you are about to land on those innocent Iraqi people don't count, I suppose.

quote:
because Americans are not a particular people from a
particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit and
freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

I think the people in question whom you are against think otherwise. Moreover, I fear your country has not heard the last of this "war".

Yours,
Frank

[Jenadots]

But the Pakistanis are our "friends."  Everyone says so, especially their military ruler.  These are the very same people who were dancing in the streets while my American brothers and sisters were jumping out of windows and being burned or crushed to death.  These are the very same people who will be getting billions of American tax dollars to -- that is, whatever is left after their leaders squirrel away most of it someplace.  

I am most appreciative of messages that show there is at least one person who doesn't hate Americans right now.  Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us.  

I am not at all certain of the coming war with Iraq.  Something doesn't seem right with it.  I don't know why now.  I would prefer that the USA were completely out of the middle east and all other countries and let them settle their own problems or live with them as they can.  But clearly, a war is coming.  It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear.  It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.  

As a nation, I do not think we are always right, but I don't think we can afford to be wrong about this.  I certainly hope that the rest of the world does not feel the way the reward offerers do.  As for me, I won't be traveling outside the USA this year.  Why make myself a target for people like these?  

Thanks for listening - Peace to everyone.

[Rob]

" Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us. "
We don't hate americans!! I think only a misguided few do. We hate your government.....
The same misconception is made in Muslim countries - they say "why do you hate us?" " we DON'T hate you!" "so why do you bomb us - you live in a democracy?". Its just a big damn game of pitching one site against the other, making out that the other hates you so you are justified in hating them back. Ggggrrrrr. Unite!!!

America could have been out of the middle east 50 years ago, if they hadn't have suppressed free evergy technology. Oil provides a useful choke point for control and money gathering purposes. And arms etc etc

and hey!! I'm not an American. I am English, but I appreciate the offer hehe!

peace
Rob

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Jenadots

But the Pakistanis are our "friends."  Everyone says so, especially their military ruler.  These are the very same people who were dancing in the streets while my American brothers and sisters were jumping out of windows and being burned or crushed to death.

The reason why these people are *so* glad when they see American lives suffering a horrid death, is because their societies have to live with such horror often on a daily basis... and they blame you for that.

quote:
These are the very same people who will be getting billions of American tax dollars to -- that is, whatever is left after their leaders squirrel away most of it someplace.

And the reason why your so-called tax-dollars never get to the people in question is because normally the Dictator that "squirrels it away" is a puppet of the United States' government. And those poor people in question are rapidly beginning to realise that. Hence the reason why a significant portion of them think the only good American, is a dead American.

quote:
I am most appreciative of messages that show there is at least one person who doesn't hate Americans right now.  Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us.  

In terms of population you are but a tiny minority.

quote:
I am not at all certain of the coming war with Iraq.  Something doesn't seem right with it.  I don't know why now.  I would prefer that the USA were completely out of the middle east and all other countries and let them settle their own problems or live with them as they can.

But you cannot, because your economic superiority relies on a plentiful flow of cheap oil.

quote:
But clearly, a war is coming.  It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear.  It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.

Well, it is not so much a "war" as you are going to attack another country in order to plunder its oil reserves. It is a fact there are those factions who bitterly resent such a policy who will stop at nothing to seek revenge for your actions. Decades ago, such factions were an insignificant minority. Nowadays, they have the power to bomb buildings in New York. Who knows what capability they will develop in the future?

quote:  
As a nation, I do not think we are always right, but I don't think we can afford to be wrong about this.  I certainly hope that the rest of the world does not feel the way the reward offerers do.  As for me, I won't be traveling outside the USA this year.  Why make myself a target for people like these?

Your policy has been "wrong" from the start. Fact is, millions of ordinary people are demonstrating against this up and coming attack. I pray I'm wrong but it seems you won't get it into your heads unless a big bomb goes off somewhere on your shores.

You know, the twin-towers incident was a warning as to what is to come IF you don't listen. And you're not. You are *still* playing that same old game. The time to eat humble pie has long-since past.

Yours,
Frank

[Anonymous]

Democracy, the only form of government I actually half-believed in, has failed me, ever since Bush was "elected" president. I am now an anarchist. However, I do not believe in chaos. There is a Buddhist philosophy of self-government, which is what we need to learn how to do. If we could get all these damn corporations out of the way, the government would not have so much power. The only reason they have any power is because of the fact that people (at least in the USA) worship money. We are the cause of our own death. The terrorists were wrong to kill innocent people, but I think that their message was clear enough. They are misguided. They think that all of us are bad. It is our government that is evil, and it IS. Does anyone here know about chemtrails? That's just one of the things they do to us. There are many things they use their citizens as guinea pigs for. Well, I don't know about you, but I trust nobody. Those who fit into our society well tend to be closed-minded and judgemental of anything that is different from what they believe in. They promote a life of ignorance and selfishness. I am totally an anti-republican. I hate the republican ideals. They are so stupid. My bodily waste has more meaning than their ideals. And democrats tend to sit there and point their finger at everyone, but don't offer any suggestions or solutions to the problems. I cannot speak for any other country's government but I don't like mine. Not at all. They must be stopped.

[MJ-12]

asc

[Klaus S]

I do hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of Saddam Hussein.
Also, I do hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of right-wing fundamentalism as a global power.

Klaus Seigel

[BDHugh]

quote:
Originally posted by Frank

The reason why these people are *so* glad when they see American lives suffering a horrid death, is because their societies have to live with such horror often on a daily basis... and they blame you for that.

Yes, victimization is common in the world and even here in the States.

quote:
And the reason why your so-called tax-dollars never get to the people in question is because normally the Dictator that "squirrels it away" is a puppet of the United States' government. And those poor people in question are rapidly beginning to realise that. Hence the reason why a significant portion of them think the only good American, is a dead American.

I halfway agree here. At the same time most of these people absolutely love the American culture, such as movies and music.

quote:
But you cannot, because your economic superiority relies on a plentiful flow of cheap oil.

Yes, but there is plentiful oil still in the U.S. Right now many oil companines want to begin drilling in Alaska, and the natives in Alaska do want them to for economoical development. They estimate the reserves in one area to be good for 12-20 years. There is also untapped oil still in Texas, New Mexico, and I believe also Colorado and Wyoming. You are assuming alot here to say that we are only after the oil.

quote:
But clearly, a war is coming.  It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear.  It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.

quote:
Nowadays, they have the power to bomb buildings in New York. Who knows what capability they will develop in the future?

Hence, the war on terrorism.

quote:  
Your policy has been "wrong" from the start. Fact is, millions of ordinary people are demonstrating against this up and coming attack. I pray I'm wrong but it seems you won't get it into your heads unless a big bomb goes off somewhere on your shores.

Hold on, you want us to accept and respect the authority of a few radical Muslims who want to destroy the 'western devil'?

quote:
You know, the twin-towers incident was a warning as to what is to come IF you don't listen. And you're not. You are *still* playing that same old game. The time to eat humble pie has long-since past.

Listen to what? We ourselves are about to make our wakeup call to the rest of the world.

[Frank]

Okay, you are not attacking Iraq to plunder its oil reserves. So I'll pop off and have a frontal-lobotomy, which should give you plenty of time to write down why it is, exactly, you are about to attack Iraq. Then we can discuss this matter further.

Joking aside, pray tell, why *are* you then about to attack Iraq?

Also, I know it has proved to be a catchy phrase, especially amongst people in the USA (if the opinion-polls are to be believed) but don't you think, "war against terror" is rather a glaring contradiction in terms?

And no sane person in the world is calling upon the US government to accept the authority of people you call, "radical muslims." But what millions of people are currently demonstrating against, is your country acting outside the auspices of the United Nations assembly.

The potential for such action has led many free-thinking people to question the international legality of such a possible future situation. Which naturally leads these people to further ask themselves who, exactly, would be the "terrorists" in that regard... if not the USA themselves.

Yours,
Frank

[Rob]

"Yes, but there is plentiful oil still in the U.S. Right now many oil companines want to begin drilling in Alaska, and the natives in Alaska do want them to for economoical development. They estimate the reserves in one area to be good for 12-20 years. There is also untapped oil still in Texas, New Mexico, and I believe also Colorado and Wyoming. You are assuming alot here to say that we are only after the oil."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the reason that these places have not been drilled already, because the oil isn't as easy to get to as it is in, say, Iraq? The oil-men who direct your government will be thinking in terms of *profit*.
There is also a large mass of oil next to the falkland islands, which even has the 2nd purest content anywhere in the world. But, it is very deep, so as of yet, there hasn't been a rush to drill it.
Although, of course, the other reason you are going to war with Iraq, is to divert home attention away from your failing economy, caused by Dubya. A classic tactic, used by countless polical leaders. Ironic, since it eats up even more government spending.

Rob

[Jenadots]

Dear Frank,  

Your hatred and frustration is showing. The USA has done some right things and some wrong things - like every other nation.  I may not get the Saddam thing but I do get the terrorists and I have a big problem with anyone who claims to be killing -- or even speaking - for God, however they define him.  

The world is changing, and somehow, out of this turmoil, bitterness, war, life and death, there may be a better one with a different balance of power.  I certainly hope so as I would prefer my country to abandon all foreign treaties and become Switzerland -- totally neutral except for humanitarian aid during natural disasters.  I don't think that is very likely to happen, but it would be intesting to see just who gets blamed for almost every problem that exists in some countries.  

I realize that most of the people who hate my country are taught to do so.  It is certainly easier for their dictators -- and in some cases, religious clerics -- to tell them that America is the reason their lives are so miserable and poverty ridden.  That is certainly easier for them than actually having to do something for their own people and to actually share the wealth of their own nations.  The common people know it is safe to riot in the streets against the USA just as they know how short their lives would be if they turned that passion against their dictators.  

I know that billions of people in the world are suffering and do not understand us in the USA any more than we understand them.  It may be generations before that changes.  But I refuse to accept your implication that we in the USA somehow "deserve" to die in terrorist attacks and have it coming to us.  We don't.  Nobody deserves that.  It might be human nature to want to watch the powerful fall -- we all secretly relish it a bit. There currently is a lot of that to go around.  Fine, we can take it.  

 Most of us would gladly eat the biggest humble pie anyone cares to give us if it would bring back all the lives lost in terrorist attacks here and around the world.  

Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me .... one of my favorite songs.  Unfortunately, it is not always easy to live up to the idea.  

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

The main problem with this entire war issue is that everyone knows that the real reason America and the UK wants to invade Iraq is not for this totally erroneous reason of Saddam allegedely owning "weapons of mass destruction". Some real reasons might include:

1) They want/need Iraq's oil. Bush stated that only those that help with the invasion of Iraq will get to share in its oil reserves.

2) Resentment at not having finished Saddam off in the gulf war. That has been irking people in the USA for years, particularly Colin Powell who was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff during that era. This so called conflict has all of the hallmarks of a personal vendetta and perceived unfinished business.

3) People just don't like Saddam []

There are many countries in the world with weapons of mass destruction - e.g. N.Korea, India, Pakistan, Russia, and oh yes, the USA and Britain. Why are not the USA wanting to disarm all of these countries?  What right does the USA and UK have to own these weapons and not anyone else? Is Bush more stable than other country leaders?

I realise of course that the UK is aiding and abetting the USA in all of this - I am looking at this from a totally objective perspective.

But where will this all end? Both Bush and Blair are going against the wishes of the people that elected them. They are also submitting resolutions to the UN saying "you might as well vote for this, because if you don't or if you veto it, we ill invade Iraq anyway" The UN exists to maintain balance in the world - not to be a rubber stamp for Bush's latest jingoism and sabre rattling.

The fact is, the USA, UK and a very few allies are intent on launching pro-active aggression. against the wishes of the majority of the world/UN, that is no different to Iraq invading Kuwait, or any country invading any other country. This is not a defensive action where an aggressor is being repelled, it is rather pre-emptive and overt hostility against another country. Sure, people don't like the way Saddam rules his country, but you can say that about numerous countries in the world - the answer is not to invade them.

The communist system more or less collapsed overnight of its own accord due to the power of the people at the final analysis. The way to assist the people of Iraq and similar countries is to send energy and other subtle influences that they might use their own freewillto determine their own destinies.

BTW Peaceful Warrior, with regards to your comment:

quote:Americans welcome the best -- the best products, the best books, the
>best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least. The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest-tossed.

Let me assure you from my own experience that this is not the case! It is extremely difficult to gain access to live in the USA if you are British for example - I know because I looked into it some years back. The only relatively certain way is to hire an immigration lawyer at some huge expense, and to invest $500K in setting up a business to employ USA citizens. It is as good as impossible to take the decision to go live in the USA and simply move there. The INS most assuredly does not welcome anyone that I can determine, and goes about making life as difficult as possible for those that want to move to the USA. All that notwithstanding that the USA has among the lowest densities of populations in the civilised world, and is occupying captured land that originally obtained by invading that continent at the considerable and ongoing expense of the native Americans who owned it and whos's rightful home is is, and now live on "reservations". Some People have very short, convenient and selective memories.

Don't get me wrong, I have numerous friends in the USA, but I felt that I had to put many things into some sort of perspective.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

Jenadots: To associate me with emotions such as hatred and frustration is as much a contradiction as the notion that war can be in any way against terror.

Moreover, I have never said nor implied that Americans deserve to die. I merely observe there are fairly large numbers of people in certain countries who do, rather unfortunately in my view, believe the only good American is a dead one. In any event, my 20-odd years of obe study has taught me that there is no death. So from my own standpoint I now find it rather peculiar to think and talk about the subject of death, in mainstream terms.

On the subject of zealots and God, perhaps I might suggest you count the times American leaders have used (and no-doubt will continue to use) the word "God" when speaking in public. And you are very right, the world *is* changing. Well, the signs are there, let's say. I'm impressed, for example, at how so many young people are protesting against this latest attack. Not only that, I was amazed at the high number of people who joined the demonstrations in London a few weeks ago, who openly admitted they were not normally demonstration-minded people. For many of them, it was the first ever time they had done such a thing. In the papers this morning comes the welcome news that even some members of the ruling Labour-party in the UK are threatening to resign, if this attack goes ahead without a clear UN resolution to that effect.

So yes, maybe things truly are set to change. Perhaps instead of continually "fighting for peace" the human race is finally realising that peace will simply come about if we would just stop fighting each other. You say, quite rightly, that a significant number of people who hate Americans are taught to do so (and often from a very early age, I note). But if more and more American people were to have a serious think about why that is, then I do feel more of you would see where longer-term observers, like myself, were coming from.

The CNN shot that always sticks in my mind was the one where an American lady, totally distraught, kept crying out, "Why do they hate us". While I am not devoid of sympathy for her plight, I do rather feel the answer to that question is fairly obvious.

Watching events unfold on television, I could but shake my head in despair at the sheer horror those trapped people must have been feeling. I posted about this early last year saying imagine being faced with a choice of either burning to death, or death by flinging yourself out of the window. And all that death and destruction in such a short space of time, in such a small area too. Think of the humungous sense of shock that caused.

But when you step back and think about it, it's only what? Just two cruise-missiles' worth of destruction. The same cruise missiles you have sent in their thousands in order to destroy buildings and bridges, and so forth, in other countries (for whatever reason or another).

To my mind, as much as I would disagree with the methodology of the people behind it, I cannot help but think the events of September 11th gave a perfect demonstration of the severe extent of human suffering - not to mention the instant and devastating destruction - that can come about when these missiles strike.

Yours,
Frank

[BDHugh]

Hi Frank,

quote:Originally posted by Frank


Joking aside, pray tell, why *are* you then about to attack Iraq?

For one, he has promoted suicide bombings by paying the families of the suicide bombers who will attack any Israeli or American. Secondly, is their past and what the public may not know about. For example, back before the first war started Saddam had counterfeited I forget how many billions of dollars. This money was one day off before entering into the black market. Thankfully we bombed them the night before (It was actually one of the first bombs drooped where they were printing it.). Because of an example like this how do you we not know they are doing anything similar or just as candid? Especially when you have a dictator armed by France who has demonstrated his want for conquest of the region. When do you cut off the inspections when they have gone on for twelve years?

quote:
Also, I know it has proved to be a catchy phrase, especially amongst people in the USA (if the opinion-polls are to be believed) but don't you think, "war against terror" is rather a glaring contradiction in terms?

Why would you assume that the opinion polls are fraudulent? How is it a contradiction in terms?

quote:
And no sane person in the world is calling upon the US government to accept the authority of people you call, "radical muslims." But what millions of people are currently demonstrating against, is your country acting outside the auspices of the United Nations assembly.

Ahh yes, the UN, what a joke. First, we went against the UN when we went over to the Balkan Islands, where were all of the protestors then? Second, these protestors should be looking a closer eye at Russia and their little coup with Chechnya, France with western Africa, and China with their horrible human rights record and their policy on Taiwan. It is also interesting that Chirac and Saddam go back to the disco days. There are two different conflicts of interest in the security council with France and Russia therefore many Americans see the UN as a joke.

[BDHugh]

Hi Inguma,

quote:Originally posted by Inguma


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the reason that these places have not been drilled already, because the oil isn't as easy to get to as it is in, say, Iraq? The oil-men who direct your government will be thinking in terms of *profit*.

Yes, I agree, however this war is not about oil. I do think that a brief rise in the economy will happen if Iraq is transformed with a new government and has newly arranged infrastructure. I do not doubt at all that this factors in.

quote:
Although, of course, the other reason you are going to war with Iraq, is to divert home attention away from your failing economy, caused by Dubya. A classic tactic, used by countless polical leaders. Ironic, since it eats up even more government spending.

No, the economy started going down when slick Willy was in office and all of the dishonesty in the big corporate companies. However, Bush is certainly not making the economy any better.

[Adrian]

Greetings BDHugh,

quote:Originally posted by BDHugh
Ahh yes, the UN, what a joke. First, we went against the UN when we went over to the Balkan Islands, where were all of the protestors then? Second, these protestors should be looking a closer eye at Russia and their little coup with Chechnya, France with western Africa, and China with their horrible human rights record and their policy on Taiwan. It is also interesting that Chirac and Saddam go back to the disco days. There are two different conflicts of interest in the security council with France and Russia therefore many Americans see the UN as a joke.

The USA only sees the UN as a joke because it suits them to do do. If they actually bothered to respect the UN resolutions in which they vote, then they would not be able to go around with mega-billions of dollars of war machinery as if they are the worlds de-facto police force.

If they are so concerned about the world, why do they not spend those billions or trillions of doallrs in assisting the countries that really need it, and thereby saving countless lives and all of that human misery and suffering?

This is not about helping the world at all, otherwise it would be done in accordance with the wishes of the world via the UN. This is rather a demonstration of power by political leaders for their own gain, while manipulating the support of the US population.

The most damning aspect of the US led action is the fact that as I said before, there are numerous countries who are involved in terrorism, and others that have massive stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Korea is blatently testing them even now, and that country can hardly be regarded as trustworthy to say the least. Why hasn't the USA sent a fleet and an army over there slinging, cruise missiles at them until they "disarm".  If they are going to use human rights as an excuse, again, there are many other countries to choose from as indeed there are with undemocratic, corrupt governments.

If you look at this situation, the target, etc.  - it all stems from the gulf war. Colin Powell et al have unfinished business and a need for oil as a bonus, and they intend to finish it regardless.

I dissaprove of the humanitarian problems in Iraq, but the main issue is so called "weapons of mass destruction", which have yet to be even proven.

As I said, I am not anti-American at all, quite the contrary, I have many friends there, but this situation is extremely dangerous in my opinion. The fact that so many people are against it, even people that were not against other situations such as the gulf war, should say something in no uncertain terms. I have never witnessed such anti-feeling against actions such as this, and humanity is being infuenced not to do it. If the USA proceed against the UN, they are going against such countries as Russia and China - both very powerful countries that most assuredly do have many weapons of mass destruction.

Bush is a seriously worrying person. He appears to be totally vacant for much of the time, and is unquestionably under the influence of the dark forces. That is how the dark forces operate - to use powerful world leaders as instruments of fear, hate and destruction.

Finally I have to agree with Frank - any country that pre-emptively invades Iraq against the express approval of the United Nations who represent global stability, are terrorists themselves, no matter how they try to justify, or put gloss and decorations on it.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Kristen]

Hi All -

How much oil does Iraq really have?  It was my impression that Saddam's effort to take over Kuwait was ostensibly about regaining Iraq's historical national boundaries.  However, the nation of Kuwait is blessed with extremely rich oil reserves and access to sea harbors.  I am not sure about this information - I suppose it could be looked up and varified.  The bottom line contention of this line of thought is that Iraq isn't really possessed of great natural oil resources in comparison with its neighbor. From the USA's point of view, perhaps what Iraq does possess is central Middle East geography coupled with being unbuyable for numberous reasons.

Another interesting thing is that W Bush has stated that Saddam had attempted to have Bush senior assassinated.  I could speculate forever about what sort of vendetta that sets up in W Bush's mind.  I also wonder about the displacement of attitudes toward Osama onto Saddam, not only in the administration's mind, but also in the collective mind of the American public.

I truly am not convinced that Saddam's arsonal is what it is characterized as being.  If he is a player in aiding and abetting terrorists I haven't seen the evidence.

I think that posters here are giving US opinion polls too much credit, while at the same time, tarring individual US citizens with the brush of their government's actions.  Opinion polls are statistical instruments and statistics is a science with outcomes of measurement that can be biased according to how questions are worded, ordered, and how the sampling was conducted.  In truth, there are a lot of people in the US who do support the war on Iraq even without attaching it to "war on terrorism" - my gut instinct on some of those people is that their collective voice would be well summed up by saying:  I have not been truly touched by war, I am not a "citizen of the world," and I am vicariously proud of being an American - a citizen of a country that can kick the world's butt if it wanted to.  However, there are a lot of people here who don't support this war effort.  Our media underplays the protests.  Part of the problem too is that the voice of protest has come late in the course of events.  I think that if we watch, we will see American protests on American soil become more prevelent and organized.

What Bush can't do at this point is back down without loosing face. I think his personal psychology might require a "legitimate" avenue of escape.... that is to say, for him it will have to be the honorable and right thing to do as he understands those terms.  I can't envision the turn of events that would set up opportunity for him to get his value and character set behind not going to war and still look like a strong value-based leader of a great nation.  

KB

[Tom]

My question still has not been answered about how to go about claiming the reward for killing any american. Considering how common murder and suicide are and setting aside accidental deaths, it seems to me that at least one claim could be made. "Anyone" includes americans killing other americans. If no one else, the famous "american taliban" whose name is something like John Walker should be able to claim the prize.

[Rob]

"For example, back before the first war started Saddam had counterfeited I forget how many billions of dollars. This money was one day off before entering into the black market"
I believe the reason he did this was because Bush had just wripped him off to the tune of similar amounts. It was, on his part, a very sly move. The guy has cunning, I'll give him that. Even if he is a monster.

"How much oil does Iraq really have?"
What were the estimates, between 10-30% of available world resources? I could be wrong.

"Yes, I agree, however this war is not about oil. I do think that a brief rise in the economy will happen if Iraq is transformed with a new government and has newly arranged infrastructure. I do not doubt at all that this factors in."
You president is a Texan oil man!! Your vice president, too has massive connections to the oil cartel!! Infact, much of your govenment is in a similar position, and there are glaring contradictions of interest. Who do you think funded Bush to get into power?

"war on terror" is a contradiction because war itself is an act of terror. This phrase is therefore reminscent of trying to put out a fire by throwing napalm at it. The only way this might work, would be if the fire were to simply explode and destroy itself. Should we pray that that is, or is not, the case? This fire is going to burn for a loong time otherwise.

"For one, he has promoted suicide bombings by paying the families of the suicide bombers who will attack any Israeli or American"
I don't really think this is not based in any factual evidence. You can be sure that, if it were true, it would be spread all over the news by now. Didn't they all come out the closet the other day (yesterday?) and admit that he really does have no links to terrorism? Saddams regime is opposed to Islamic fundamentalism anyway. Too much of a threat to him.

Anyway, all this back-and-forthing - has it actually affected the views of any of you good posters out there? I would be very interested to hear if anyones opinions have been swayed. I suspect, that most peoples minds are already made up.

All the best
Rob

[Frank]

People may choose to believe this "war" is not about oil. I say "war" but millions of free-thinking people are looking at the facts, as they stand today, and coming to the conclusion that what is said to become is merely an out-and-out attack.

But whichever way you look at it, if Iraq did not have the second largest oil reserves in the world then no-one in the USA would have ever given a stuff about the tiny (relatively speaking) land-mass that is currently called Iraq.

After all, there are currently "dictators" with "human-rights records" just as dismal as Mr SH. And there are countries all over the world with "weapons of mass-destruction". In fact, the country who has developed the very most potential for mass-destruction is the USA.

Not only that, they have *repeatedly* shown they will use such weapons in order to protect their economic interests. Which has, for decades, boiled down to the simple fact of keeping that supply of cheap-oil flowing.

Those who originally set out this policy, make no mistake, did fully realise many innocent lives would be wasted as a result. So they set out to develop a regime of performing the act with an advantageous sense of eloquence and style.

All we see now, is but a continuation of that original policy.

Yours,
Frank