Ethics/morals

Euphoric Sunrise · June 27, 2003, 03:53:56

I've come to rest at the idea that life is indeed what you make it. There are no universal 'rights' or 'wrongs', 'goods' or 'bads'. So if a person thinks he/she is being moral by their way of thinking then i guess there are. Of course there is a general acceptance of what is right or wrong by which the law judges. So i guess you could state a person as being unethical in the eyes of the law or in your own eyes, but i don't think you can down-right conclude that a person is being unethical by everyone's standards.

clandestino · June 27, 2003, 03:55:54

I thought I could do a quick internet search and give you a nice, simple ethics definition. However.... :

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/ethics.htm

!!! complicated, eh ?

lets cut to the chase. When people ask "is it ethical?", they normally mean "is it right" (as opposed to wrong). Society says it is unethical to murder people - fair enough. Its a view held by 99.999% of the population.

Consider the "fur coat" debate. Most people are indifferent to someone who wears a fur coat. Frankly, I couldn't care less - fur / leather / wool....Its all the same thing to me.

But there are minority groups who are passionate about the rights of our furry friends. They'll go as far as commiting criminal acts to put across their view. But they haven't changed the fact that wearing fur isn't unethical, because most people don't see it as wrong.

Squeek · June 27, 2003, 05:14:50

I'm with ya F_T. I have no idea how things got the way they are now... Like why we have to be uncomfortable in order to look "nice". Why can't we just be ORIGINAL and wear what we want! Because of society. Society has set rules on everything without us even realizing it, and I'm set to break them. When you see me at one of those big awards shows, I will not be wearing a $500 tux. You'll see me wearing a T-shirt and shorts. Which cost like 20 bucks. I tells ya it's so stupid.

~Squeek

Nick · June 27, 2003, 15:00:19

F_T,

This is where spiritual work comes in, I believe. The more we get in touch with who we really are, and I don't mean the person that stares back at us in the mirror, then the more correct our "moral compass" becomes. When we meditate, do astral sessions, and look within, I believe we begin to get a sense of guidance in our daily affairs. This then sharpens our ability or perception of what "doing the right thing" comes down to.

Very best,

goingslow · June 27, 2003, 18:57:08

So its only okay to rape and kill if you believe you're doing the right thing?

I completely disagree with this whole "there is no wrong or right". Maybe it fits in somewhere in the grand scheme of things so its not wrong in that its against nature but it is wrong on some level. Go live somewhere where you are being oppressed, beaten or tortured and something deep in you will tell you what they are doing is "wrong".

Its not easy to define, but its not as simple as some on this board make it where there's no such thing as wrong and if you think you're doing "right" that makes it so.

beav31is · June 27, 2003, 19:15:04

Squeek "Society has set rules on everything without us even realizing it, and I'm set to break them."

Raise hell!!!

"When you see me at one of those big awards shows, I will not be wearing a $500 tux. You'll see me wearing a T-shirt and shorts. Which cost like 20 bucks. I tells ya it's so stupid."

Suit and tie is ugly, thick, hot, expensive, inconvenient to clean, and uncomfortable. The only good thing about it is the other shmucks with suits will ~~pay~~ whore me to wear it.

goingslow · June 27, 2003, 19:18:59

I do think ethics and morals are differnt though. Ethics involve more society related topics where I think morals are more universal. I always think of business ethics, or ethical behavior in the work place. Ethics are more self imposed and an unethical person is definitely a person I wouldnt trust. But they're not necessarily "bad".. and immoral person says more than an unethical.

Unethical is a little hazy.

Euphoric Sunrise · June 27, 2003, 19:30:56

quote:
Originally posted by goingslow

So its only okay to rape and kill if you believe you're doing the right thing?

I completely disagree with this whole "there is no wrong or right". Maybe it fits in somewhere in the grand scheme of things so its not wrong in that its against nature but it is wrong on some level. Go live somewhere where you are being oppressed, beaten or tortured and something deep in you will tell you what they are doing is "wrong".

Its not easy to define, but its not as simple as some on this board make it where there's no such thing as wrong and if you think you're doing "right" that makes it so.

But you can't say that everybody considers being beaten and tortured wrong. What about masochists?
I think most people would agree that any treatment that makes them feel bad would be wrong, but a sadist might say anything that makes other people feel bad is right. It's not as simple as saying there's one universal truth to ethics.
I think people should be as free as they want, as long as they are not imposing on other's wills. That's why i don't think it's a bad idea to have a law system (as we already have), where the ethics of the general population are considered. It's not the best answer, but i think it's the closest we've got at the moment.

Euphoric Sunrise · June 27, 2003, 19:34:31

Sorry, hit the wrong button!

Squeek · June 27, 2003, 19:39:07

Very nice post beav31is. Nice editing down there. Highly effective.

~Squeek

goingslow · June 27, 2003, 19:40:35

I'd have to argue it isn't the sadist thinking it's right that makes that situation unique, but the masochist's consent and desire. When talking about no wrongs or right I think its only fair to go with extreme cases, since its such an absolute statement. So torture, beat, and rape would be non consentual in my example.

Squeek · June 27, 2003, 20:52:49

There are some that you really shouldn't break...those are the ones that the law can hold you for.

I wasn't lying about the tshirt and shorts. If I'm ever on tv and invited to a big event that is filmed and I might get an award, look for me. I'll be the only white shirt in a sea of black.

~Squeek

Fat_Turkey · June 28, 2003, 04:41:58

LOL this reminds me of tonight when my girlfriend was coming to our school for a musical performance I was in, and her dad was trying to get her all dressed up. I mean, we may go to the most expensive school in the city, but that doesn't mean we're rich about it. We're forced into formal-looking clothes, but when we're allowed to we laze around in jeans and shirts, we don't care.

Anyhoo, MORALS. Hmm...the whole circle of morals things...I find the spiritual journey a toughie. Mainly cuz starting it is so damned difficult. Still trying to crack the mystery of clearing my mind.

Later
-FT

Frank · June 28, 2003, 08:19:23

One of the *major* lessons I learnt from my explorations of non-physical realms, and this touches on what Nick has said, is how every thought, action, word, deed, etc. affects not just a person's life within the Physical plane, but it ripples through a number of non-physical realms as well.

Of course, what people do, say, think, and so on, is their business as far as I am concerned. But I feel if people knew the far-reaching extent of the damage they cause to themselves from repeated feelings of anger or greed, for example, they simply wouldn't do it. When I say that I don't mean they would suppress it. I mean they would realise the full consequences of their actions and simply not do it.

I am not a religious person but I know a number of subscribers are; and they'll probably recognise what I describe in the above paragraph is the basic meaning behind that famous phrase, "Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do."

Someone who is a regular explorer of non-physical realms (such as myself, for instance) cannot help but view events on the Physical from a totally different standpoint from people who (say) believe the Physical realm is all there is, and once you die that's it.

Problem is, when a person dies Physically they then have to face the consequences of their past actions. A large percentage of people on this planet happen to doubt this. But that's their lookout as far as I am concerned. Please believe me when I say there truly is no way of getting away from it. With me, I know such is the case. This knowing stems not from some kind of religious or other mystical belief, but from years and years of exploring non-physical realms; meeting all kinds of people there; in all manner of situations.

My regular guide, Harath, used to take me on tours of the lower Astral and show me how emotions such as greed, hate, anger, bitterness, and so forth, damaged a person to the extent where it had severely stunted their development. One of my early posts gives an example of witnessing an experience where people were completely obsessed with dual emotions of greed and lust. The title was called, "Astral experience example" in case anyone wants to look it up.

For me, what it all boils down to is, it's not a question of being a "good" person in the sense of it being some kind of religious duty: your life becomes a performance dictated by a shopping-list of morals; together with paying homage to some God. Nor do you need to start giving all your money to charity and things like that. Perish the thought! I suppose, in a way, someone could argue what I am promoting is, in itself, a form of selfishness. As it would appear, on the surface, the only reason why a person such as me seeks to do the right thing (so to speak) is because they want to get ahead in the wider scheme of things.

But that argument fails to take account of the general benefits which would accrue to human society as a whole. Given sufficient numbers, that is. And I do feel this is basically where all the talk of a coming New Age is leading.

I doubt whether it will happen in my current Physical lifetime, but I do very much believe human society here will (eventually) develop to the extent where a significant percentage of people can explore non-physical realms in a more objective fashion to the extent where they actually realise all this for themselves. Because there is one heck of a difference between believing in the notion of non-physical realms... and actually experiencing them with an attendant degree of objectivity.

What I mean by that last bit, is there's a *major* difference between spontaneously projecting to the Astral every now and again, and flitting about here and there; and projecting on a regular basis with a high degree of control. While I agree the former can have a significant and often beneficial impact on a person (it sure did with me) nothing can possibly prepare a person for the mental impact of consistently experiencing the latter. Like I say, it changes your whole outlook on life and you will never think the "old way" ever again.

The above, in a nutshell, is what I believe the mystical notion of "enlightenment" basically to be. You become enlightened to the real truth about life: which causes major, irrevocable changes in the way a person thinks and feels.

Problem is, people who have experienced this are in a tiny minority. Quite why that should be I do not know. Fortunately, however, it does appear to be an ever-growing minority. As such, I do feel certain it really is only a matter of time before the numbers become evident to the extent they slowly begin draining this melting-pot of insanity we call, "civilised society."

Yours,
Frank

Fat_Turkey · June 27, 2003, 01:46:51

Hi. I recently came apon a spiritual obstacle I guess. I was telling some moron at my school that he was unethical due to his extreme self-centeredness and his attitude that if he thinks it's right, then it is right. But how could that be possible? Then I thought "Hang on, reality is what you make it to be. So, in a way, he IS right, on some levels. But he's still unethical. Wait a minute, what the hell are ethics anyways? Who sets them? Who acknowledges which things are ethical? And why are we ethical?"

Further deeper thinking led me to believe that ethics and morals are those things that make us "good" people. Being self-centered would only cause other people pain because you have no compassion for them, you wouldn't pick them up when they are down because you only care for yourself. So ethics would be those things that make other people feel good? Is having morals those things that make us wise? And then I came back to the starting question - WHAT ARE ETHICS? Morals and ethics exist to respect other people, to put yourself aside for the community as a whole?

Feedback and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Later
-FT

News:

Ethics/morals